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wright11
Senior Member

Canada
159 Posts

Posted - 11/06/2007 :  6:56:55 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
hi all
just wondering has anyone had good luck with this engine

thomas86_a
Top Member

USA
4413 Posts

Posted - 11/06/2007 :  8:29:27 PM  Show Profile  Visit thomas86_a's Homepage  Send thomas86_a an AOL message  Reply with Quote
We don't have any in our fleet, Thank God!

I haven't really heard anything good about them yet.

If you have an International, you NEED customer service.
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Bassman
Top Member

USA
558 Posts

Posted - 11/07/2007 :  08:13:33 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Oh, don't get me going. Premature injector failures, egr cooler failures, STC fitting failures, turbos getting gummed up, glow plug relays, many reflashes for the computers, engine electrical problems like chaffed harnesses, fuse holders melting, etc. Any specific questions?
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BlueBird44
Top Member

USA
1639 Posts

Posted - 11/07/2007 :  09:29:07 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Nice engine when it's actually working properly. Constant computer issues.


IC-The Golden Shield of School Transportation
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wright11
Senior Member

Canada
159 Posts

Posted - 11/07/2007 :  10:11:02 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
has anyone had any intercooler problems from the turbo sucking oil fumes from the engine draft tube'
up here in canada we go through temp extremes, and with oil fumes going through the intercooler with condensation will sludge form in the intercooler possibly plugging it or drastically reducing airflow through it

Edited by - wright11 on 11/24/2007 10:48:34 AM
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black
Active Member

USA
49 Posts

Posted - 11/08/2007 :  2:23:29 PM  Show Profile  Visit black's Homepage  Reply with Quote
The 2005 IC's with VT-365 engine's and hydraulic brakes are the worst buses I have seen in 30 years!At 25,000- 30,000 miles you will spend any where from $1800.00- $4,000.00 on the brake system and never touch a brake pad, rotor or caliper and the engines have something every week.I have heard "rumors" that some school districts are considering filing lawsuits over the hydraulic brake system.
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IBTMech
Top Member

USA
973 Posts

Posted - 11/08/2007 :  4:45:41 PM  Show Profile  Visit IBTMech's Homepage  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by black

The 2005 IC's with VT-365 engine's and hydraulic brakes are the worst buses I have seen in 30 years!At 25,000- 30,000 miles you will spend any where from $1800.00- $4,000.00 on the brake system and never touch a brake pad, rotor or caliper and the engines have something every week.I have heard "rumors" that some school districts are considering filing lawsuits over the hydraulic brake system.


Yep. Doesn't surprise me.

That's why we have all DT466s and air brakes.

If it doesn't fit, FORCE it.
If it breaks, well, it needed replacing anyway.
Pullin' wrenches for 45 years.
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busgeek++
Advanced Member

United States
253 Posts

Posted - 11/08/2007 :  6:12:02 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Around here the vt365s have had their issues, but when they're running, the do well, they out-accelerate every T444E in the fleet, but not when they are sick (blowing white or black smoke).

Buses are not a way of life, they are life
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BlueBird44
Top Member

USA
1639 Posts

Posted - 11/08/2007 :  7:55:41 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
busgeek++,

That's true my bus will accelerate awsome ecept when it's sick as you said (blowing white or black smoke) But I also have loss of power sometimes where it gets sluglish when I hit the accelator but the next run it'll act normal. I said something to my boss but we had it in before and they said till it keeps doing whatever we're not taking it anywhere because they won't find the problem.


IC-The Golden Shield of School Transportation
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busgeek++
Advanced Member

United States
253 Posts

Posted - 11/08/2007 :  8:04:27 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
true, ours seem to be like that for a while before getting fixed.

Buses are not a way of life, they are life
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dem84skeeprollinup
Top Member

USA
888 Posts

Posted - 11/08/2007 :  10:29:30 PM  Show Profile  Click to see dem84skeeprollinup's MSN Messenger address  Reply with Quote
Hey guys! I found a fix for the 365! Sell the engine a trans and get a team of 8 horses and a diesel generator to power your bus! Youll never have to worry about increasing emissions controls!

Whatever works...

We don't have any vt365's here thank God, but we have a pair of microbird activities and a collins lift bus with powerstrokes 6.0's (bascaly the same engine). We havn't had much downtime with them yet. I guees were lucky.

Do the world a favor and bring back GMC and Ford conventional chassis......

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bbird66
Top Member

USA
881 Posts

Posted - 11/09/2007 :  07:38:32 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
I'll NEVER forget at a three day International seminar, The instructor literally said they were going to be "The best V-8 EVER!" He made it sound like it was going to be the second coming of christ...

Glad I dont have any.

Were gonna miss you "Brent"..Good luck in "Heidi land"

"I know you miss the Wainwrights Bobby, but they were weak and stupid people...and that's why we have wolves and other large predators" .. The Far Side

"On a two hour delay when will my child be picked up??"








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BusFleet
Active Member

USA
36 Posts

Posted - 11/09/2007 :  09:34:23 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
I'll second Bassman's comments.
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Bassman
Top Member

USA
558 Posts

Posted - 11/09/2007 :  10:13:13 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
My 05-06 IC's w/VT's and HPB brakes are the only buses I have actually written a song about. (You have to do something to keep your sanity!) Try starting at the first month and sing all the way up to the last month to the tune of The Twelve Days of Christmas melody. It's like therapy!

The Twelve Months of Warranty

In the twelfth month of warranty, IC gave to me...
12 faulty sensors
11 loose connectors
10 "You're the only one having these problems!"
9 Fittings breaking
8 Turbos huffing
7 Coolers leaking
6 Park Brakes sticking
5 TSB's.....
4 more recalls
3 "Uptimes"
2 more injectors
and another reflash for my VT!


(the tenth month is my favorite of course....what good does it do to try to convince someone that they are the only one having these problems?!)
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93CarpFord#11
Top Member

USA
1382 Posts

Posted - 11/09/2007 :  6:02:52 PM  Show Profile  Visit 93CarpFord#11's Homepage  Send 93CarpFord#11 an AOL message  Click to see 93CarpFord#11's MSN Messenger address  Send 93CarpFord#11 a Yahoo! Message  Reply with Quote
I have heard nothing but complaints about the VT365. Luckily we only have 2 of them.

Bassman, I like that song.

Johnny

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Thomasbus24
Administrator

USA
4483 Posts

Posted - 11/10/2007 :  04:52:54 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by bbird66

I'll NEVER forget at a three day International seminar, The instructor literally said they were going to be "The best V-8 EVER!" He made it sound like it was going to be the second coming of christ...

Glad I dont have any.



Sounds exactly like the coming of the T444E back in the day! HA!

Awesome lyrics there bassman.
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BusFleet
Active Member

USA
36 Posts

Posted - 11/12/2007 :  06:46:43 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Bassman - How true it all is!!!! We've got two at the dealer now for intermittent no start conditions. They too, are unsure of the problem, something about a lazy ECM.

BTW - I like the song. Can you put something together to the tune of Silent Night? You could title it Silent Engine.
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Starbus
Active Member

USA
45 Posts

Posted - 11/13/2007 :  1:35:26 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
I have 8 vt365 in my 11 bus fleet. Sure they can be a little cold blooded, but they do have great acceleration and are very fuel efficent. The worst problem I have had with these IC's is that ABS and traction control censor on the rotors. At a trade show in Sept. I saw a new rotor that will be coming out to fix that issue.

I just took delivery of a new bus last Friday with the new Max Force. This bus deffantly does not haver the power or quickness off a vt365. I wonder if that is caused by all the new emission stuff installed. The bus is titled as a 2009.
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BBInt.10
Top Member

USA
1042 Posts

Posted - 11/13/2007 :  3:59:15 PM  Show Profile  Visit BBInt.10's Homepage  Send BBInt.10 an AOL message  Reply with Quote
My '05 IC with the VT365 was blowing white smoke so thick this morning when I pulled out of the bus lot that all I could see out my back windows was a wall of white. It cleared up after a few minutes of driving. Between runs, I stop back at the bus lot for my layover and shut the bus down for about ten minutes. When I started it back up and took off, it was smoking just like before. So off to the shop it went. Any ideas? I'm thinking bad EGR or cracked intake manifold?

If all your problems are behind you... you must be a school bus driver.
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BlueBird44
Top Member

USA
1639 Posts

Posted - 11/13/2007 :  4:43:37 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Mine did this and I forget what they did to fix it. Mine is an 06. I also had it this year blow black smoke real bad like I couldn't see anything out my back of my bus except black and then it stopped and hasn't done it since. Right now I have the problem of hitting the accelertor and it lurches foward and then hesitates and then finally kicks back in. This just happens here and there but I can't stand it.


IC-The Golden Shield of School Transportation
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NWCROWN
Advanced Member

USA
461 Posts

Posted - 11/13/2007 :  11:43:43 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
A friend of mine is a tech at a Ford dealer...the 6.0 powerstroke used in the Ford trucks (which is essentially a VT365) is not loved by the techs...in addition to all that there have been a few with head gasket failures in his shop.

From what I have read about the VT365, it almost seems like International bought the rights from General Motors to produce the Oldsmobile 350 diesel again for use in their buses.
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Bassman
Top Member

USA
558 Posts

Posted - 11/14/2007 :  04:59:30 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
IH has released a TSI with new part number rotors in the last few months (TSI #07-04-02). These seem to be the cats meow so far. They are actually built by Performance Friction but the pricing through the IH dealer has been excellent. We have put on about 20 so far and they seem great. They have better material in the rotor and a tone ring made from a different metal. You'll be impressed.

We have 10 new Maxxforce DT's that have been really nice so far. Ours are 210hp and although they don't feel as quick off the line as the VT's, they are pulling great. Watch out for a coolant tube that can come apart on the right side of the motor. On ours, the bracket on the alternator is putting some stress on the tube that comes from the heaters on the right side and enters into the back of the water pump. This connection looks like a compression fitting and uses a black rubber insert like a ferrel. There is no flare on the end of the pipe, so if the bracket on the alternator creates a pull on the pipe, it can pull the steel tube out of the fitting...dumping all the antifreeze out. We are going through our buses, loosening up the fittings, pressing the tube back down in, retightening the fitting and repositioning the bracket so that there isn't any stress pulling on the steel pipe.

Loads of white smoke in VT365 if it is accompanied with antifreeze consumption is most likely an EGR cooler failure. Be sure that you have had the UPTIME work done which seems to reduce these failures.

If your loss of power and bucking is accompanied by a 343 code in the computer, it will be a turbo sticking and it needs to be cleaned. Every time we have had an intermittant loss of power with bucking and a check engine light with a 343 code, having the turbo cleaned/lubed or replaced has fixed it.
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bbird66
Top Member

USA
881 Posts

Posted - 11/14/2007 :  06:35:04 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
From what I have read about the VT365, it almost seems like International bought the rights from General Motors to produce the Oldsmobile 350 diesel again for use in their buses.

Man that is funny!! You made my day!

Were gonna miss you "Brent"..Good luck in "Heidi land"

"I know you miss the Wainwrights Bobby, but they were weak and stupid people...and that's why we have wolves and other large predators" .. The Far Side

"On a two hour delay when will my child be picked up??"








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IBTMech
Top Member

USA
973 Posts

Posted - 11/14/2007 :  6:53:54 PM  Show Profile  Visit IBTMech's Homepage  Reply with Quote
Looks like Navistar is a bit closer to buying GM's truck division.

If it doesn't fit, FORCE it.
If it breaks, well, it needed replacing anyway.
Pullin' wrenches for 45 years.
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wright11
Senior Member

Canada
159 Posts

Posted - 11/24/2007 :  10:54:57 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
please see original question post #5
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Bassman
Top Member

USA
558 Posts

Posted - 11/26/2007 :  04:25:55 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Can't say as I've seen a power problem in our fleet related to the intercoolers clogging yet. Are you sure it's not junk coming from the turbo though? Have you replaced/repaired one and fixed the power problem?
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wright11
Senior Member

Canada
159 Posts

Posted - 11/30/2007 :  9:41:43 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
HI BASSMAN
i havn't had a problem yet, but i can see this problem happening very soon
i believe the oil fumes coming from the draft tube that is on the suction side of the turbo with condensation creating sludge in the intercooler possibly creating this problem, not so much in the summer , but up here in alberta during the winter we see - 30 to -40 celcius,, i don't think being on the pressure side of the turbo will keep the intercooler clean ,,,but time will tell
i'll let u know in april- may 2008
i can just imagine the bottom of the intercooler is full of oil-sludge right now ---2006 vt365 at 35,000 km's
im thinking about having the draft tube vented to the ground insted of the suction side of the turbo so this problem doesn't continue to worry me,,after the engine warranty expires!!! or maybe sooner!!!

my dream bus is a vt365 engine, international chassis and body with electric front door, lucas brakes and a cummins lift pump
just kidding ,,this would be the biggest piece of CRAP ever made!!!

really the bus i want is a fs65 chassis with mercedes (non-emitions) engine, international ce300 body (without computerization) with manual f door, split front windshield , and lever park brake, i think this dream bus would be a non problem unit and dependable
how about u???

hey bassman where in the states u from
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Bassman
Top Member

USA
558 Posts

Posted - 12/03/2007 :  04:27:40 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Our fleet is located just north of Baltimore, Maryland. Single digits is a cold night for us. We're 95 buses of various makes and loads of cars/trucks/mowing equipment too. I'll jump on that new bus design with you! (By the way, we have 31 FS-65's in the fleet and don't want to trade!).
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Krim
New Member

United States
3 Posts

Posted - 12/06/2007 :  3:59:39 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Boat Anchor? Heck I'd go with scrap metal depending on the type of day dealing with the engine. I do alot Uptime repair work on the VT-365. It is a good running engine when the thing is not sick. EGR and injector failures seems to be very dominant for failures. We have had buses here have symptoms of a failing fuel pressure pump. Loosing FP until it stalls out from fuel starvation to having the bus on high idle and slowly going down in rpm till it stalls of just sits there belching smoke and barely idling. Check the baffles in the fuel tank. if you can get the bus to go on high idle listen by the tank, can actually hear the baffle vibrating around. Or if please hit the tank with your deadblow hammer it will shock the broken baffle out of the way and bus idles like a charm. Replace the tank. we have done well over a dozen. If anyone got some issues id be glad to give my input.
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Mechan1c
Top Member

USA
838 Posts

Posted - 12/12/2007 :  8:16:50 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Krim, Both you and Bassman have mentioned the fuel tank baffles. My 18 2006 CE's have the same tank option (#0015SAL) as Bassman's, and my issue has been recurring check fuel filter lights coming on, and also 6 lift pump(1841816C91) replacements. There has been some stumbling and rough idle but no outright stalls with most running just fine. My buses have DT466's though. I have had 12 visits the IC dealer since March for just this issue. These buses only have between 6-14K on them. Besides the lift pumps, my dealer has thrown filters, pressure regulators(1841629C92), and EBP sensors(1850351C1),and EGR valves(1842593C92)at the problem. DTC 346 and 372 seem to be a common thread when codes are set. 4 of the buses had lift pump/EGR/EBP combinations. If no code gets set they seem to get confused and say we just can't do anything. They usually throw a pressure regulator and a new filter at it. Then typically the light comes back on during the 25 mile trip back to the barn. When I mentioned the baffle issue, I got that glazed over look that comes right before they say: "I never heard of that before." Ok everyone...
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Bassman
Top Member

USA
558 Posts

Posted - 12/13/2007 :  04:26:27 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Herein lies the dilemma. IH defaults to "we just can't do anything" when there is not an obvious answer and we (as bus fleets) must default to "we just can't do nothing!" The culture at IH which filters down to the dealers is that they can only do what they will get paid for and tech central will not pay unless the problem is active, current and verifiable and fixable. But, to send a bus back out on a run, knowing it will breakdown, is negligent. To illustrate my point, let me explain my last experience with a fuel tank baffle. The bus cut out on a run with kids on it and we replaced the bus with a spare. Of course, when we got out to the breakdown, the bus ran fine. We test drove the bus for many hours (which of course warranty would never pay for) with no problems evident. Fact #1 - nothing has been fixed and we all know it will breakdown again. Fact #2 - taking it to the dealer is a waste of time as IH will not authorize payment for them to do anything. My solution in this instance was: I walked into my IH dealer's service manager's office and said "Here is bus 331. I would like to pay you to pull out the fuel tank and check the baffle." He looked at me puzzled for a few seconds and then caught on. If I was right in my diagnosis and the baffle turned out to be broken, warranty would have to pay for the tank and the labor. If I was wrong, I would have to pay for the R and R time. Three hours later, he called to tell me that a new tank was on the way courtesy of International. Two days later, the bus was once again hauling kids safely instead of "we just can't do anything." My suggestion to you is to buy an inlet restriction test fitting. The one for my VT365's is a ZTSE4583. It is a neat little thing that screws into the little housing that contains the screen. Then, you put a vacuum gauge onto the fitting. Test drive the bus until it acts up. What I do if possible, is to drive the bus into the dealer with the bus screwing up with the gauge showing an unacceptable vacuum reading and bingo, they have to do something! In the case of the DT466, I think you need a ZTSE4692 fitting to put into the diagnostic port on the fuel filter housing. You'll need a gauge that snaps onto this fitting. Or, you could probably find your own fitting and attach a regular vacuum gauge. It is also bizarre to me that with a great tool available such as ISIS, there is no bulletin posted (that I can find) advising the dealers to look for the broken baffles. I just read the diagnostic chart and it doesn't mention it either. I know that diagnosing warranty problems ahead of time should not be the responsibility of fleets, but it sure does decrease downtime and improve safety. Sometimes it even eliminates dumb looks and the "you're the only one having these problems!"
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bbird66
Top Member

USA
881 Posts

Posted - 12/13/2007 :  05:53:23 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
How come "Mod tech" hasnt chimed in on this thread?

Were gonna miss you "Brent"..Good luck in "Heidi land"

"I know you miss the Wainwrights Bobby, but they were weak and stupid people...and that's why we have wolves and other large predators" .. The Far Side

"On a two hour delay when will my child be picked up??"








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Thomas Ford 85-16
Top Member

USA
4177 Posts

Posted - 12/13/2007 :  09:19:11 AM  Show Profile  Visit Thomas Ford 85-16's Homepage  Send Thomas Ford 85-16 an AOL message  Reply with Quote
Forgive me if I'm simply ignorant, but what are baffles doing in the fuel tank? I didn't realize they had baffles, or is this a new thing? I wouldn't imagine that fuel tank is large enough that the sloshing of fuel is a hazard to handling, like it would be in a tanker trailer.
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Bassman
Top Member

USA
558 Posts

Posted - 12/13/2007 :  10:00:53 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
It may be nothing more than a tank "brace" that's welded in. It's a piece of flat metal around 6 inches or so across with two straight sides to attach to the side and bottom of the tank. Maybe more for strength than to baffle. When one breaks loose, it lays flat on the bottom of the tank until it gets sucked up on the bottom of the pick up tube when conditions are just perfect. Then, in short order, you have kids sitting on the side of the road. If the bus sits a while, the vacuum drops off and the plate moves away from the pick up tube and you can drive away.
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busgeek++
Advanced Member

United States
253 Posts

Posted - 12/13/2007 :  6:27:57 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
They definitely need baffles, because some of our 97-03 AmTran/IC RE units will experience a bang and somewhat of a jerk when turning with about 1/2 to 2/3 of a tank of fuel. It can become a problem in snow and such. Out 06-07 REs don't have the problem (vt365) so I assume they have baffles.

Buses are not a way of life, they are life
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Krim
New Member

United States
3 Posts

Posted - 12/13/2007 :  7:24:48 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
The baffles are definetly becoming an issue in my opinion. Seems the lowest bidder to make the tank definalty won their bid on that project. Bassman is totally right about what the dealer would do. For diagnosing the baffles i used a pressure guage hooked up to the side of the filter housing. Put the bus up to 2500 rpms. Pulled out my fold-able chair and watched the gauge until it started to mess up. Did that everytime after changing filters, inspecting injectors, blowing out the fuel lines with air. replacing the fuel pump, last thing left was the tank. Next couple times with the bus at 2500 rpms, could actually hear the broken baffle vibrating on the bottom of the tank. Next thought of mine is I am wondering if anyone has been having issues with injectors in the VT-365?
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