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IC RE 1629
Top Member
United States
5097 Posts |
 Posted - 09/01/2005 : 3:48:03 PM
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I'm going to use this thread here to ask some of my engine and transmission questions I often come up with.
For starters, what kind of diesel engine is the International T444E? It is a V8 or inline six, etc?
Two, is the Allison MD-3060 transmission a 5-speed or 6? |
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Craig Thoricht
Senior Member
USA
177 Posts |
Posted - 09/02/2005 : 02:47:31 AM
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The T444E is a V8
The Allison MD 3060 can be either a 5 speed or a 6 speed. The OEM works with Allison and the determination is made according to a variety of factors. Those can include input torque, GVW, load factor, tire size and final drive ratio. |
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IC RE 1629
Top Member
United States
5097 Posts |
Posted - 09/02/2005 : 3:16:05 PM
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| What about the VT365? |
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thomas86_a
Top Member
USA
4413 Posts |
Posted - 09/02/2005 : 4:58:48 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by IC RE 1629
What about the VT365?
Also an 8. |
If you have an International, you NEED customer service. |
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IC RE 1629
Top Member
United States
5097 Posts |
Posted - 09/02/2005 : 5:30:47 PM
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| What is the difference between an inline 6 and a V8? Is it just the number of pistons? |
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Thomas Ford 85-16
Top Member
USA
4177 Posts |
Posted - 09/02/2005 : 6:47:12 PM
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| An inline six has six pistons in a line. A V8 has eight cylinders in a V-shape. |
Mike's Bus Yard - http://buses.zwebpages.com - Since 1999
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IC RE 1629
Top Member
United States
5097 Posts |
Posted - 09/03/2005 : 05:07:54 AM
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| Does a certain design offer anything then the other? |
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Cody
Top Member
United States
1630 Posts |
Posted - 09/03/2005 : 07:37:24 AM
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| The inline 6 is not as wide as the V-8. And I know for our car that has a I-6, it had more power than the V-8. People may know more about this |
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Chris
Top Member
USA
1013 Posts |
Posted - 09/03/2005 : 08:00:14 AM
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The DT-466 I6 does proide more torque and horsepower than the T444E V8 or VT365 V8.
The 466 is a heavier motor than either of the V8's.
Also the DT-466 engine is a "wet sleve" diesel, which makes rebuilding/overhauling the engine much easier than with the V8's. (get an easy rebuild instead of replacing a whole motor)
Inline six engines are very dependable and durable. My school's fleet is completely DT-466, and our mechanics love them. |
My Personal Fleet
1985 Ward Ford #1 Lexington Local - 1990 Wayne International NO.2 Walton-Verona - 1992 Ward Senator NO.4 Walton-Verona *SOLD* |
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IC RE 1629
Top Member
United States
5097 Posts |
Posted - 09/03/2005 : 3:57:15 PM
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| This explains why our mechanics love the DT466 so much. I take it the DT466 is pretty good during cold weather? I know our VT365's and T444E's have alot of difficulty in cold weather. |
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B. Busguy33
Top Member
USA
3444 Posts |
Posted - 09/03/2005 : 6:07:41 PM
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quote:
I take it the DT466 is pretty good during cold weather? I know our VT365's and T444E's have alot of difficulty in cold weather.
First of all, any bus equipped with an engine block heater, should have it "plugged in" when the temperatures outside drop.
Most of our T444Es (2000 model year) have no problems starting in cold weather. All of these engines are equipped with glow plugs, which are supposed to make it easier for them to start. When it gets really cold, you can cycle the "Wait To Start" light two or three times. That may help with starting. I am really surprised your V8s are having problems starting when it is cold outside. Are your drivers starting them properly? (Meaning, do they always wait for the "Wait To Start" light to go out before starting the bus?) Our T444Es are not equipped with engine block heaters. Even if they were, there are no places to plug them in.
I think the DT466s start fine in the cold weather. My non-electronic 1996 DT466 does anyway. Haven't had experience with the newer "electronic" DT466s, so I can't comment on those. |
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Chris
Top Member
USA
1013 Posts |
Posted - 09/03/2005 : 6:23:33 PM
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| Our 1991 - 2004 buses with the DT-466 all start fine in cold weather (they all are plugged in when winter hits though) The only thing different in cold weather for them is a temporary rough idle, allowing time for the engine to warm up, and get things going so to speak. Our 2006 IC CE came with glow plugs, so we'll see how well they work when winter comes. Do buses with glow plugs also come with block heaters? or is it one or the other? |
My Personal Fleet
1985 Ward Ford #1 Lexington Local - 1990 Wayne International NO.2 Walton-Verona - 1992 Ward Senator NO.4 Walton-Verona *SOLD* |
Edited by - Chris on 09/03/2005 6:23:58 PM |
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B. Busguy33
Top Member
USA
3444 Posts |
Posted - 09/03/2005 : 7:08:47 PM
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quote:
Our 2006 IC CE came with glow plugs, so we'll see how well they work when winter comes. Do buses with glow plugs also come with block heaters? or is it one or the other?
To my knowledge, the DT466 is not equipped with glow plugs. Does this mean your district broke its DT466 tradition by purchasing their 2006 buses with the VT365?  If they did, I am very shocked that they would spec their buses with the 365 instead of the 466 as they had been doing.
Another thing I wanted to mention is that the T444E and the VT365 (I think) are rated to have unaided cold starts down to -20F, while the DT466 is rated for unaided cold starts to +10F.
Anyway, to answer your question, if your bus is equipped with glow plugs you can also spec an engine block heater -- it is still an option, whether you have glow plugs or not. |
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IC-RE
Top Member
USA
4117 Posts |
Posted - 09/03/2005 : 7:24:50 PM
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| The main reason we have trouble starting up our T444e's in cold weather is driver impatiance, they are cold, and they just want the darn thing to fire up so they can get some heat, also many drivers get to their buses at the last minute, and they must rush so they can hit their first run on time! |
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78fordwayne
Top Member
USA
2868 Posts |
Posted - 09/03/2005 : 7:53:30 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by B. Busguy33
[quote]To my knowledge, the DT466 is not equipped with glow plugs. Does this mean your district broke its DT466 tradition by purchasing
The DT466 does not have glow plugs but does have an option intake or grid heater witch uses a wait to start light just like glow plugs.
Ive always found those work better than ether injection for cold starting. |
Robert B.
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Edited by - 78fordwayne on 09/03/2005 7:55:22 PM |
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B. Busguy33
Top Member
USA
3444 Posts |
Posted - 09/03/2005 : 8:09:56 PM
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quote:
The main reason we have trouble starting up our T444e's in cold weather is driver impatiance, they are cold, and they just want the darn thing to fire up so they can get some heat, also many drivers get to their buses at the last minute, and they must rush so they can hit their first run on time!
I think that problem could be easily solved with some patience on the driver's end.  They must wait for that light to go out! That's why it's there! If they start the bus properly, then it should start without much trouble. I admit, there are drivers in my location that are the same way -- even in warm weather. This is one thing that makes me tick.
When I train the drivers on the new CEs we will be getting in a couple months, I am going to stress the importance of waiting for that light to go out before starting the bus, especially since it is hard to see on the dashboard from where you are sitting in the driver's seat.
quote:
The DT466 does not have glow plugs but does have an option intake or grid heater witch uses a wait to start light just like glow plugs.
Ive always found those work better than ether injection for cold starting.
That is interesting; I didn't know the intake/grid heater utilized the Wait To Start light. I thought that light was only for the glow plugs. I guess I learned something new today! |
Edited by - B. Busguy33 on 09/03/2005 8:40:34 PM |
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Thomasbus24
Administrator
USA
4547 Posts |
Posted - 09/04/2005 : 04:39:45 AM
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If somebody is having trouble starting a T444E on cold days I would certainly look at the driver as mentioned above, but also at the glow plug and relay to see that they are working. We ran 3 of these engines in those god-forsaken vistas, one of which has no block heater and it has NEVER failed to start due to cold.
I nevered liked that motor, but it does impress me sometimes. |
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baptistbusman
Advanced Member
USA
301 Posts |
Posted - 09/04/2005 : 8:06:57 PM
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| Is the T444E similar to a 7.3L? I have heard that they are basically the same engine, but i have never had a close look at a T444E. In my opinion, the engine sounds the same when it's running. |
1 Timothy 1:15 This is a faithful saying, and worthy of all acceptation, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners; of whom I am chief. |
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IC RE 1629
Top Member
United States
5097 Posts |
Posted - 09/04/2005 : 8:14:56 PM
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Are engine block heaters a good idea for engines like the T444E? What about doing things like cycling the plugs?
I don't much about bus engines, and I trying to learn all I can. |
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B. Busguy33
Top Member
USA
3444 Posts |
Posted - 09/04/2005 : 8:22:47 PM
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quote:
Is the T444E similar to a 7.3L?
I would suppose there are similarities between the two engines. But, I believe I heard the T444E was a completely different engine than the 7.3 liter.
quote:
Are engine block heaters a good idea for engines like the T444E? What about doing things like cycling the plugs?
I don't much about bus engines, and I trying to learn all I can.
I have seen T444Es equipped with engine block heaters. I think some of your buses have them. I think they can help out with starting these engines in the cold.
I was trained to cycle the T444Es 2 or 3 times when it gets really cold outside. That helps with starting these engines in the cold, too. |
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IC RE 1629
Top Member
United States
5097 Posts |
Posted - 09/05/2005 : 05:29:38 AM
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I know all our buses have block heaters on them.
One thing I want to know is, I've seen alot of Type C buses with the better engines like the DT466 for instance. But then I see alot of Type D buses with the lighter engines like the T444E for instance. Why is that? |
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IC-RE
Top Member
USA
4117 Posts |
Posted - 09/05/2005 : 08:03:26 AM
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| A type C is less expensive, so a more expensive engine is easier to achieve. |
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Chris
Top Member
USA
1013 Posts |
Posted - 09/05/2005 : 08:37:50 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by 78fordwayne
The DT466 does not have glow plugs but does have an option intake or grid heater witch uses a wait to start light just like glow plugs.
Ive always found those work better than ether injection for cold starting.
Thanks Robert, for clearing things up; I didn't know that either.
quote:
Originally posted by IC RE 1629
I know all our buses have block heaters on them.
One thing I want to know is, I've seen alot of Type C buses with the better engines like the DT466 for instance. But then I see alot of Type D buses with the lighter engines like the T444E for instance. Why is that?
Well you cannot get the DT-466 in a Rear Engine type D bus. (I assume you see a lot of RE's where you are hence all of the Fairfax "RE" user names) As far as FE's go, the DT-466 is very common, here at least.
In an RE you wouldn't want a heavier engine in the rear, unless you travel straight flat roads in the winter time
quote:
Originally posted by IC-RE
A type C is less expensive, so a more expensive engine is easier to achieve.
With multiplex wiring, new design, and the other new changes in the CE, I would think that statement is no longer true. (In the IC bus category FE-RE and CE) |
My Personal Fleet
1985 Ward Ford #1 Lexington Local - 1990 Wayne International NO.2 Walton-Verona - 1992 Ward Senator NO.4 Walton-Verona *SOLD* |
Edited by - Chris on 09/05/2005 08:46:35 AM |
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thomas86_a
Top Member
USA
4413 Posts |
Posted - 09/05/2005 : 09:09:15 AM
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Yes you can get the 466 in a rear engine transit IC-RE. The IC-RE 200 has the VT-365(old units 444) and the IC-RE 300 has the DT466. The extra weight is not an issue in the rear, the 466 can put a lot more power than the VT-365 can. The 466 would be preferred by many in the IC-RE over the VT-365.
As for the statement: "A type C is less expensive, so a more expensive engine is easier to achieve." I don't see why this wouldn't be true, type C's generally run around $15,000 cheaper than a type D. |
If you have an International, you NEED customer service. |
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IC RE 1629
Top Member
United States
5097 Posts |
Posted - 09/05/2005 : 09:28:02 AM
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I would have to agree with thomas_86a.
Which would you think is better? DT466 or DT570? |
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B. Busguy33
Top Member
USA
3444 Posts |
Posted - 09/05/2005 : 10:45:44 AM
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quote:
Which would you think is better? DT466 or DT570?
In areas without a lot of hills, I believe the DT466 would be the better choice. If you would be operating the bus on very mountainous or hilly terrain, I would go with the DT570. A lot of companies/districts in CA spec the DT570 on their REs. Both engines are similar, except the 570 is larger and provides more power than the 466. I would imagine the 466 can do the job in most areas, though. It is a solid engine.
Now, getting back to the previous discussion...
Just so we are all on the same page, the only engine available in the IC FE is the DT466. In the CE: the VT365 is standard, the DT466 optional. In the pre-2005 RE: the T444E was standard, and the DT466 and DT530 were optional. In the 2005+ RE: the VT365 is standard, and the DT466 and DT570 are optional.
You may see alot of the REs with the T444E because that was the standard engine. All of the AmTran REs that were in my area were also spec'd with the T444E. Of course, all these buses were owned and operated by Laidlaw, and they usually go with the base specs for their buses.
If I were spec'ing an IC CE or RE, I would most definitely choose the DT466 over the VT365. |
Edited by - B. Busguy33 on 09/05/2005 3:15:17 PM |
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IC RE 1629
Top Member
United States
5097 Posts |
Posted - 09/05/2005 : 11:40:40 AM
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Here is what I know:
IC FE --- DT466 is the only engine avaliable
IC RE --- VT365 for the RE 200 and DT466 for the RE 300.
IC CE --- Haven't a clue! |
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thomas86_a
Top Member
USA
4413 Posts |
Posted - 09/05/2005 : 12:09:17 PM
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Here are the facts:
IC-CE: Standard- CE 200- VT365 /Optional CE 300- DT466
IC-FE: Standard- FE 300- DT466 /Optional N/A
IC-RE: Standard- RE 200- VT365 /Optional RE 300- DT466 Optional RE 300- DT570
And in case anyone is wondering the RE is model number 300 whether you spec the DT466 or 570, there is no model 400 for the DT570 engine, although not a bad idea. |
If you have an International, you NEED customer service. |
Edited by - thomas86_a on 09/05/2005 12:10:47 PM |
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B. Busguy33
Top Member
USA
3444 Posts |
Posted - 09/05/2005 : 12:52:44 PM
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quote:
Here is what I know:
IC FE --- DT466 is the only engine avaliable
IC RE --- VT365 for the RE 200 and DT466 for the RE 300.
IC CE --- Haven't a clue!
I had already explained everything about the bus/engine types above your post. Did you somehow overlook it?
Here it is again:
quote:
...Now, getting back to the previous discussion...
Just so we are all on the same page, the only engine available in the IC FE is the DT466. In the CE, the VT365 is standard, the DT466 optional. In the RE, the T444E was standard, and the DT466 and DT530 were optional. Now, I think the VT365 is standard and the DT466 and DT570 are optional.
You may see alot of the REs with the T444E because that was the standard engine. All of the AmTran REs that were in my area were also spec'd with the T444E. Of course, all these buses were owned and operated by Laidlaw, and they usually go with the base specs for their buses...
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TC3000
Senior Member
USA
103 Posts |
Posted - 09/05/2005 : 2:56:20 PM
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| I know the 3300 chassis (used on Blue Birds) offers either the VT365 or the DT466. Im not exactly sure if there is a difference there vs. IC CE |
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B. Busguy33
Top Member
USA
3444 Posts |
Posted - 09/05/2005 : 3:09:44 PM
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quote:
I know the 3300 chassis (used on Blue Birds) offers either the VT365 or the DT466. Im not exactly sure if there is a difference there vs. IC CE
No, there isn't. The 3300 chassis and the CE chassis are basically the same in design and in engine/transmission options.
If you read two of the posts above this one, you would have also discovered that the CE offers the same engine options as the 3300 -- they were already listed above. |
Edited by - B. Busguy33 on 09/05/2005 3:11:28 PM |
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IC RE 1629
Top Member
United States
5097 Posts |
Posted - 09/06/2005 : 03:07:26 AM
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Sorry about that B.Busguy33!
An RE 400 with the DT570 would be interesting.
Why is it that IC doesn't offer anything smaller then a DT466 in the FE? |
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Cody
Top Member
United States
1630 Posts |
Posted - 09/06/2005 : 04:53:03 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by IC RE 1629
Why is it that IC doesn't offer anything smaller then a DT466 in the FE?
The VT365 is too wide to fit in the FE. |
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B. Busguy33
Top Member
USA
3444 Posts |
Posted - 09/06/2005 : 07:15:34 AM
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quote:
Sorry about that B.Busguy33!
An RE 400 with the DT570 would be interesting.
No problem. Just wanted to be sure you knew that information was included in my post above.
I do agree with Bret about that RE-400 comment. If you order a DT570, it should be considered an RE-400.
You don't see many IC REs with the DT570 engine, so that may be why they don't bother with it. Another possible reason could be that IC considers the V8 diesel (VT365) to be the "200" series and both Inline-6 diesels (DT466 and DT570) to be known as the "300" series, since they are similar engines to begin with. |
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thomas86_a
Top Member
USA
4413 Posts |
Posted - 09/06/2005 : 10:27:02 AM
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| I agree Bob, the limited number of units purchased with the DT570 is probably the reason they do not create a seperate model number for them. Plus as you mentioned 200 series is V-8, 300 series if Inline-6. I just thought from a marketing standpoint it would make sense to have a 400 model and really wouldn't take that much effort to do. They could even try doing something like Thomas did with the West Coast ER. A heavy duty version for those areas over there that buy those units. Oh well I should shut up now and quit giving the competition my good ideas. |
If you have an International, you NEED customer service. |
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B. Busguy33
Top Member
USA
3444 Posts |
Posted - 09/06/2005 : 3:04:51 PM
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quote:
Oh well I should shut up now and quit giving the competition my good ideas.
LOL! If we start seeing RE-400s, we'll know who to give credit to for that idea.
It would be nice if they did that, though. Especially for identification purposes. It is kind of difficult to tell a DT466 apart from a DT570 without seeing them up close. They sound similar. |
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Engine & Transmission Questions
