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School Bus M8
Top Member
USA
617 Posts |
 Posted - 09/07/2004 : 6:40:48 PM
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| In Massachusetts the seating capacity is posted on the side of the bus (i.e. My bus is a 71 passenger so on the side it reads 71-13inch seats). Does the 71 passenger capacity pertain to Middle School/Junior High School/High School students? Is it legal to drive my bus with 71 high school students? To my understanding it is but others beg to differ. I haved asked different people in different positions (drivers, safety managers,depot managers, state police, etc.) and recieved different answers. Can anyone provide me with the true answer and/or info/link on how to find out. Also, how do other states determine the seating capacity? |
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BlueBird16
Top Member
USA
501 Posts |
Posted - 09/07/2004 : 7:03:15 PM
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Well, this is the way I understand it. If the seat rating is 71 passengers, then you can operate the bus legally if the students are seated. But you know that high school students are as big as full grown adults these days. Our district is TRYING to get high school loads to 2 students per seat. Personally I think that is a safer
environment than running at full capacity.
You should tell your concern to your TD and get their help with this. But the answer is YES to your question. You can operate your bus a s long as you don't exceed the manufacturers rated seating capacity as long as every student is seated. |
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CountGirl
Top Member
USA
823 Posts |
Posted - 09/07/2004 : 8:01:53 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by School Bus M8
Does the 71 passenger capacity pertain to Middle School/Junior High School/High School students?
In my understanding, when school bus manufactures do it they calculate it with three elementary students packed into a seat. Seats are 36 inches long, meaning that each elementary student gets twelve inches for their tail and gear. This works well for the elementary level, whom are fortunate enough to have tails that are happy to comply, but when you present the middle school and high school levels, tails are not as forgiving. Try measuring your tail and seeing if it will fit into a twelve-inch area. Probably not. So, depending on state regs (read below) and policy, it may be legal to have three high schoolers to a seat, but it's probably unwise.
quote:
Originally posted by School Bus M8
Also, how do other states determine the seating capacity?
Here comes the regs I mentioned eariler. I'm in Oregon, [so that means all the driver friends make me memorize all the Oregon regs they tell me about  ] Here's the equation for seating capacity in Oregon: bus capacity (eg. 72) divided by three and then times two. That will get you the number of Oregon students that may be transported by that bus at any given time because it is illegal in Oregon to transport more than two passengers per bus seat during the ride. I have no idea if that is enforced (because years ago they used to squeeze us three to a seat before our district heard of 84 capacity) but I heard it from a driver-friend last year and so I would say it is probably there now.
Count |
Give me a yellow object. Yes. Right now. I need my yellow chocolate, for goodness sake! |
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C24U
Advanced Member
United States
220 Posts |
Posted - 09/08/2004 : 05:24:13 AM
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| I don't know if it's different in other states, but in Ohio the standard 39" seat figures a 13" "rump width". You can legally place 3 students in a seat if they have 13" rumps! If you would cram 3 larger students into the seat, then you may be liable? I'm not sure, but that's my understanding. |
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1983WardFord
Top Member
USA
1395 Posts |
Posted - 09/08/2004 : 3:17:48 PM
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| My understanding of Ohio's law is that you may carry NO MORE THAN the bus's rated capacity. However, all students MUST be in a seat and out of the aisles. That means if you put 71 high/middle schoolers on a bus and the patrolman behind the bus is having a bad day (and knows the law), he could pull the bus over for being too full. |
Due to the current economic condition, the light at the end of the tunnel has been turned off until further notice. |
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Thomasbus24
Administrator
USA
4547 Posts |
Posted - 09/08/2004 : 3:56:47 PM
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This is a highly-heated debate topic in Ohio right now. Something about everyone must benefit from the safety barriers and all that good stuff.
*Fondly remembers the MANY times when I was in school that we packed 100 kids into the old 84 passenger pushers* |
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78fordwayne
Top Member
USA
2868 Posts |
Posted - 09/08/2004 : 4:00:38 PM
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| Most of the high schools in my area will only put 2 per seat and 1 in the small seat in the back if there is one. The grade schools usually go 3 per seat. I remember in junior high that was not very comfortable having 3 to seat. |
Robert B.
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SOS
Advanced Member
USA
253 Posts |
Posted - 09/09/2004 : 02:14:22 AM
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In a word can you say LOOPHOLE? LOOPHOLE can be described as a way for Administrators and Managers to use the Driver as a SCAPEGOAT in the event of an injury to a student. I can hear it now, Well Mrs. Bus Driver did you use good common sense when you allowed three big kids to squeeze into a seat? Didn't we tell you in training that you can NEVER block the aisle of the the bus with ANYTHING? Have you ever called in that you were overloaded? Why not? (I can assure you if I call in an overload the first question will be what is the head count and if it is 84 or under I will be told to transport those kids! ) You should have known that people parts were included in nothing can block the aisle of the bus. So on and so on, I'm sure you get the picture.
In Georgia we have a regulation, (state law actually), that says we are allowed the manufacturers capacity rating plus 20%. Yes, you read it right PLUS 20%. For our standard conventional big buses that means we can legally carry 72 + 14.4 = 86.4 students, I haven't quite figured out how to get 0.4 student on board  .
Our local administration says all students must be seated. We are not to transport if students are standing or sitting in the aisle. They don't specify if 1 plus cheek of the student nearest the aisle can hang off the seat and out into the aisle. Go figure.
When the formula was given by the manufacturer it is based on the body size of the average 3rd grade student, and could easily accomodate three to a seat. For most 3rd grade students that is. (I happen to have one chubby lil' ol' fella in third grade this year that is bigger than most of my middle school kids. )
Here is the way you can research it for yourself; in your search engine type in compartmentilized seating. Go to the different websites offered and read what they say. The web sites that appear on my machine all agree that for compartmentilization to be effective all parts of the body must be inside the seat. Body parts hanging in the aisle have no protection for the student if they are not behind the barrier of the seat in front of them.
In my OPINION any body parts hanging in the aisle not only presents a danger to the individual student forced to sit three big kids to a seat but it also is a hazard waiting to happen in an emergency evacuation situation.
Each individual driver must determine for themselves if they are willing to risk injury to the students nearest the aisle and hanging halfway into the aisle. As drivers, (and sometimes scapegoats), we need to come together as one voice and be heard until the right governmental bodies give us clear cut language in the regulations for bigger bun seating on the buses. Until then we can expect to bave it all run down hill and land in our laps when the train jumps the track  .
Of course it is all going to boil down to the almighty dollar!!!! As my supervisor tells the good folks at central office "sure we can do anything, one bus per kid, no problem so long as you allow us the funding"! He really is a great guy, (my supervisor), and he is extrememly realistic. It is just too bad the school board is not as realistic as he and we have to be. Put a few of them out here in the trenches with us and let them see first hand what some of their decisions really amount to and see if they don't change their attitudes. Personally I think every school board member should have to do a ride along every month and keep them in the real world for the times they vote on where the dollars are going to be spent. |
You gotta Love em' to Carry em' |
Edited by - SOS on 09/09/2004 02:24:22 AM |
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John Farr
Top Member
USA
642 Posts |
Posted - 09/09/2004 : 07:30:57 AM
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Most states adhere to the rated capacity, based on the 13 inch "fanny room," irregardless of actual student size or weight. To make matters more difficult there are often separate regulations requiring that aisles be kept clear, which is impossible with HS students seated 3-to-a-seat. This puts the burden on the driver to operate the bus within these conflicting regulations. 13" is not enough seat space for an HS student.
I find it interesting that this topic comes up in early September, just after the start of school. In my experience this is what normally happens:
During the first 2-3 weeks after the start of school high school students ride the school buses in greater numbers than any time in the school year. The numbers normally decline rapidly after that and by June there are plenty of open seats. The following September the same phenomenon repeats itself.
The reasons are many. The typically earlier starting times of high schools allow parents to drop students off enroute to their jobs. In the afternoon after school activities, part time jobs and many other interests keep students off the yellow buses, but obtaining drivers licenses/permits is the biggest reason, in my opinion. If in doubt, just look at the high school parking lot. When a student gets their license several of their underage friends can ride to school with them. Districts with poorer families are normally an exception, since the families cannot afford the extra vehicle.
Here is my take on all of this: Instead of buying and operating many more buses to afford these temporary riders three weeks of comfort, and yes, a safer ride..... I prefer to appeal to the drivers to load high school buses to rated capacity (based on 13" seat allocation for each student) and wait until mid-September before letting the office know that there are still some 3-to-a-seat situations on high school runs. By then the office staff is less harried, and stop counts are beginning to stabilize (needed to make accurate adjustments to runs). Where possible runs should be designed so that a good number of students are located at a stop near the school so crowding on the bus is only for a short period of time. Requiring HS students to sit 3-to-a-seat into October would be unfair to the students, especially if there were space on other buses. Making changes in HS runs any earlier only means additional changes later.
We are guardians of the taxpayer's interests and I believe this is common sense solution to this problem. I have added language in the driver handbook which gives rationale for the 3 weeks of 3-to-a-seat for HS students and that this will be remedied by mid-September. Most law enforcement agencies would see that we are protecting the common good in following this procedure. If they disagreed, the driver has protection in that they are following a written district procedure.
In an ideal world cost would be irrelevant and safety would be paramount. If that were true, all students would be riding school buses all year - many more than we currently operate. I cannot see staffing and equipping a system to cover a higher demand that typically occurs only 3 weeks of an entire school year.
As Joe Reed would say: "that's my 2 cents worth." |
Edited by - John Farr on 09/09/2004 07:45:34 AM |
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Isellbuses
Top Member
Canada
828 Posts |
Posted - 09/09/2004 : 08:07:04 AM
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Joe,
That is a very worthwhile 2 cents. Well said.
I think the phrase 72 passenger is over used and creates the issue in the first place. Public administrators have costs shown to them for 72 passenger buses that service 48 children. How do you explain it? It should simply come down to weight capacity. I think that would solve the issue. How much does the bus carry GVWR, how much does the bus weigh GVW and what is the difference. If it is 6000 lbs we use the AMA guide line for ages 6 to 14 for middle school and 14 - 17 for high school. You will find that a 72 can carry 40 high school students by weight. If you have more you are over weight and that is illegal in Quebec. :)
That is my 2 (3.7 Canadian) cents worth.
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SchoolBusFan
Top Member
USA
1769 Posts |
Posted - 09/09/2004 : 6:18:21 PM
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I wouldn't like to be riding 3 to a seat in High School, but we all know some companies/districts do it. The 3 to a seat thing is mostly for elementary school students and middle school students. From what I've heard in one district I lived in, 2 to a seat in high school. Bus capacity should never go over the manufacturer's recommendation.
# of seats X 3 = seating capacity of bus
(most cases)
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Rich
Top Member
United States
5768 Posts |
Posted - 09/10/2004 : 5:55:06 PM
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In an ideal world, elementary, middle, AND high school students would be sitting two to a seat. This would help to accomodate the massive 20 pound bookbags and whatever else the kids could be carrying, plus the typical extra flab children are carrying on nowadays, compared to 1977 when these standards were made.
BUT, three-point sitting is basically around the corner... so this will make more room for the rump. |
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Bus11
Senior Member
United States
170 Posts |
Posted - 09/11/2004 : 06:06:53 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by R. Solano
BUT, three-point sitting is basically around the corner... so this will make more room for the rump.
R. Solano -
What does the above refer to? Have you heard of new seats/standards in the works? I'm curious........
Marshall |
Wandering around the mountains in a 95 Thomas/Ford -
Wishing for a C2 !! |
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Rich
Top Member
United States
5768 Posts |
Posted - 09/11/2004 : 10:53:47 AM
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Bus11,
With the way things have been sounding of late, it appears that eventually three-point seating will be a law in many areas. California has already made it a law starting this year, I believe. |
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busdrver4jesus
Top Member
USA
802 Posts |
Posted - 09/13/2004 : 08:21:55 AM
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In our state, they have laws reguarding how many students can fit on a bus.
54 Passenger buses:
54 Elementary
36 Middle/High
60 Passenger Buses:
66 Elementary
40 Middle/High
66 Passenger Buses:
66 Elementary
44 Middle/High
78 Passenger Buses:
78 Elementary
52 Middle/High
This is equal 3 per seat for elementary and 2 per seat for middle/high. |
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Admin
Administrator
USA
1662 Posts |
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Topic |
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Seating Capacities
