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Thomasbus24
Administrator

USA
3344 Posts

Posted - 03/16/2012 :  10:33:02 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
I was wondering how everybody is buying and distributing DEF for the new buses? Who is supplying your equipment?

I am currently running three AAFE's that use the stuff and have been buying it from the local oil company in 55 gallon drums. We pump it out into a jug and pour it in the bus.

Potential exists that I am buying two EF's or AAFE's this summer, so obviously consumption is going to go way up.

I'm thinking of getting the 330 gallon container with electric pump that features a delivery hose and nozzle.

Thanks in advance!

JRob
Senior Member

182 Posts

Posted - 03/16/2012 :  1:41:55 PM  Show Profile  Visit JRob's Homepage  Reply with Quote
Is your usage going up that much? Maybe I'm looking at it incorrectly but you're only increasing your demand by 40% but you're increasing your supply by 6 times. I guess if you're keeping up with 3 using a 55 gallon drum, I'd add a 2nd drum and see how it goes before adding that much capacity.
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partsman_ba
Administrator

United States
290 Posts

Posted - 03/16/2012 :  2:01:30 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
It is much easier to step up to an electric pump for DEF, but you need to evaluate your usage and figure out how much you will use in a year. I know my oil company only supplied the electric pump and automatic nozzle with the tote. DEF has a shelf life of one year, if I remember right, so a tote may be a little much for you with 5 units.
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JustinB
Advanced Member

United States
490 Posts

Posted - 03/16/2012 :  2:06:08 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
ISO#2241 is the compliance standard for all things DEF. Make sure that any equipment youget is certified to ISO#22241.
Most lubricant and fuel equipment distributors carry ISO#22241 DEF pumps. I would stick to a pump system with a common industrial 110V drive motor (think hay elevator or belt drive grinding wheel)and pump combo. These will make the transition when you moce from 1-2 55 gallon barrels to the 330 gallon pallet tote. Stay away from the electric egg-beater stayle, they seem slow, disposible and overpriced.

Oh. Did I mention look for ISO #22241 certified pumps?

I may not know the answer but I can usually find who does.
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partsman_ba
Administrator

United States
290 Posts

Posted - 03/16/2012 :  4:57:05 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Your dealer should be supplying you with DEF equipment that meets the standard JustinB mentions. I think it is best to "allow" them to loan you the equipment - that way you don't have any cost out of pocket and they can keep it maintained.
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Thomasbus24
Administrator

USA
3344 Posts

Posted - 03/17/2012 :  6:03:21 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Thank you all for your input. I had it in my head that the shelf-life was two years, so I wasn't concerned about the larger quantity, thanks for the correction! I plan to contact my supplier and try to get a better system in place for next year (and hopefully those two new buses too).

Any other thoughts?
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tigger2
Advanced Member

USA
284 Posts

Posted - 03/19/2012 :  04:41:35 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
We purchased a cart and pump arrangement for a 55 gal. drum that uses the same pump and hose assy for a tote so that when our D.E.F. fleet reaches the size that can use that much def we are set up. Our System came from American Blue Systems the cart has air tires and is heavy duty the whole system ran about $1250.00. There web site is www.americanlube.com
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Thomasbus24
Administrator

USA
3344 Posts

Posted - 03/19/2012 :  08:57:02 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Nice tool, that would be a darn good investment.

Do yall think this DEF thing is really going to be "the new way of it" or just a passing craze?

Edited by - Thomasbus24 on 03/19/2012 08:57:37 AM
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Fastback
Top Member

990 Posts

Posted - 03/19/2012 :  10:01:48 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
I think DEF is here to stay.

I can only add that number of units using the stuff is only a part of the equation, rate of use will be determined by miles driven.

Why yes, the ORIGinal CHARGER is a Fastback
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bwest
Administrator

United States
2324 Posts

Posted - 03/19/2012 :  2:02:49 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
You know I have been biting my tongue don't you? If my school board goes along with me I will never have to install a pump for DEF. I will never have to have a particulate filter cleaned and I will never have EGR problems. Sorry Thomasbus24, you ask for any other ideas.

Bryan

Edited by - bwest on 03/19/2012 2:03:22 PM
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08 Thomas EF
Top Member

530 Posts

Posted - 03/19/2012 :  2:10:12 PM  Show Profile  Visit 08 Thomas EF's Homepage  Reply with Quote
Wasn't there a "solid SCR" in the works (by International? Dodge?) that eliminated the DEF?
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Thomasbus24
Administrator

USA
3344 Posts

Posted - 03/19/2012 :  3:07:58 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Haha, I swear I am going to have to stop by and see your LP bus if I ever make it up that way!

I'm hooked on diesel, and don't like change.
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JRob
Senior Member

182 Posts

Posted - 03/19/2012 :  3:33:34 PM  Show Profile  Visit JRob's Homepage  Reply with Quote
Dodge uses a NOx adsorber but I'm not certain it works in engines rated for Medium or Heavy Duty service. NOx adsorbers utilize precious metals and would cost prohibitive in the sizes required for larger vehicles.

International has a stake in a company, Amminex, based in the Netherlands. Amminex has been trying to develop a solid ammonia medium to use in an SCR system. The advantage is that the salt solid used delivers the ammonia in a greater concentration than liquid form. Thus it is a more efficient delivery system. Last I heard they had installed systems in Europe on autos but not trucks. That is a bit dated however so I would expect they've made progress in the development.

The thing is, DEF is becoming more widely distributed and is relatively inexpensive. Every world truck and engine manufacturer is currently using it (even Navistar in S. America). Unless something comes along that is absolutely bulletproof and inexpensive, I would expect that DEF will be the SCR medium in the marketplace.
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08 Thomas EF
Top Member

530 Posts

Posted - 03/20/2012 :  04:03:30 AM  Show Profile  Visit 08 Thomas EF's Homepage  Reply with Quote
The Dodge Rams and buses use the ISB 6.7, so why is the engine the deal breaker? Are trucks and buses treated differently because of the GVWR?
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Fastback
Top Member

990 Posts

Posted - 03/20/2012 :  05:38:26 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by 08 Thomas EF

The Dodge Rams and buses use the ISB 6.7, so why is the engine the deal breaker? Are trucks and buses treated differently because of the GVWR?



Only the Dodge Ram pickup trucks use the NOX absorber. The more commercial use oriented Ram chassis cabs use DEF.

Why yes, the ORIGinal CHARGER is a Fastback
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bwest
Administrator

United States
2324 Posts

Posted - 03/20/2012 :  05:44:50 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Thomasbus24

Haha, I swear I am going to have to stop by and see your LP bus if I ever make it up that way!

I'm hooked on diesel, and don't like change.



HaHaYour welcome to come on by! I too was hooked on diesel and do not like change but diesel is the one that did the changing not me.

Bryan
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JRob
Senior Member

182 Posts

Posted - 03/20/2012 :  08:32:01 AM  Show Profile  Visit JRob's Homepage  Reply with Quote
The Dodge Rams and buses use the ISB 6.7, so why is the engine the deal breaker? Are trucks and buses treated differently because of the GVWR?

Has to do primarily with the size the adsorber (named because the NOx gas is adsorbed to the filter) would have to be larger than those used in the light-duty application of the Dodge Ram. The engine is essentially the same but the way it is tuned to operate in pick-up service makes its emissions output different.

Since the adsorbed used precious metals like palladium and rhodium the larger requirement makes it cost prohibitive.
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Thomasbus24
Administrator

USA
3344 Posts

Posted - 04/10/2012 :  11:14:04 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Got it narrowed down to two systems. Both made by BlueDEF, ISO 22241, 20' hose, auto-off nozzles. If you want to check em out...

http://www.napaonline.com/Catalog/CatalogItemDetail.aspx?R=NAFDEFCBBSS20_0139803023

http://www.napaonline.com/Catalog/CatalogItemDetail.aspx?R=NAFDEFC13BB20_0000999999


One has a stainless steel pump housing, 1/2 HP, starts/stops with nozzle, 3 year warranty. The other is a polypropelene pump housing, 1/3 HP motor, manual start/stop, 2 year warranty. Price difference is about $400.

Any thoughts on the matter?

Edited by - Thomasbus24 on 04/10/2012 11:28:17 AM
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bwest
Administrator

United States
2324 Posts

Posted - 04/11/2012 :  10:20:06 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
I wasn't going to comment any more on this but you reeled me in Thomas. How much does one of these things cost if you are "saving" $400? Seems like a waste of money to me, but I know you have to have the darn stuff to run these engines.

Bryan
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tigger2
Advanced Member

USA
284 Posts

Posted - 04/11/2012 :  10:47:49 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Our local bus distributer being on the cheap side went with the plastic unit and has already had to replace it once. Also you may have to get a down tube assy to fit the drum or barrel your DEF comes in. Some companies are selling drums with a dip tube already installed in the hopes you will buy the quick connector from them. I think the better unit is the stainless unit, because once the DEF is dried out by the air it forms crusty chunks unless the equipment is washed down after filling a unit.
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bwest
Administrator

United States
2324 Posts

Posted - 04/11/2012 :  11:13:08 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by tigger2

because once the DEF is dried out by the air it forms crusty chunks unless the equipment is washed down after filling a unit.


Wow, more unforeseen problems. Washed down after each use? I can see my drivers doing that, not.

Bryan
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Thomasbus24
Administrator

USA
3344 Posts

Posted - 04/11/2012 :  11:50:03 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by bwest

I wasn't going to comment any more on this but you reeled me in Thomas. How much does one of these things cost if you are "saving" $400? Seems like a waste of money to me, but I know you have to have the darn stuff to run these engines.



$800 vs. $1200

I am buying it more out of concern for my mechanics' safety than anything.

This crap eats up pumps, so when the pump quit working, two guys manhandled a freaken 55 gallon drum (nearly full) up onto a piece of plywood laying on top of two other 55 gallon drums, used an old seatbelt to stap it down, and put a valve on the opening.

Glad I wasn't there to see it because I'd have come unglued...these buses are NEVER work taking a risk of injury like that.

When I did see what was done out of need, some of the crap had dripped onto the above mentioned plywood and is eating it up. I will try to grab a picture of the mess and see if I can figure out how to post it here.

**This is the same shop that has never had a first aid kit because the dumbass ahead of me was too cheap to buy anything like that...too bad I never noticed that fact. Worked out GREAT when a guy laid his finger open last month and a driver who happens to be an EMT was trying to get him patched up. We have a kit now.

Oh, and what would we need jackstands for? Fire extinguishers? WHY BOTHER?!?!

God help me if OSHA visits this place before Summer when I go over the shop myself to correct the violations.

******End angry rant...I'm just tired of cleaning up the darn mess this place was left in*******
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Thomasbus24
Administrator

USA
3344 Posts

Posted - 04/11/2012 :  11:53:03 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by tigger2

because once the DEF is dried out by the air it forms crusty chunks unless the equipment is washed down after filling a unit.



Yep, and that crap will find its way into the bus' tank. Does it disolve into the DEF again? DEF filter replacement interval is 250,000 miles mind you.

I think BlueDEF is the company installing the tubes in advance, do you know of any specific others? Gotta talk to my NAPA guy about this one, he's cheaper on drums than the oil company anyways!

My saving grace for now is that only the most senior drivers have these buses, and they are the type that will take care of the equipment once shown how.

Edited by - Thomasbus24 on 04/11/2012 12:00:13 PM
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Thomasbus24
Administrator

USA
3344 Posts

Posted - 04/11/2012 :  2:28:00 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Here ya go fellas...

http://www.flickr.com/photos/27265743@N03/sets/72157629795702225/
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Fastback
Top Member

990 Posts

Posted - 04/12/2012 :  05:15:58 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by bwest

quote:
Originally posted by tigger2

because once the DEF is dried out by the air it forms crusty chunks unless the equipment is washed down after filling a unit.


Wow, more unforeseen problems. Washed down after each use? I can see my drivers doing that, not.



Your drivers would never have to do it, DEF tank capacity easily takes the bus from service interval to service interval without having to add more fluid.
I have emptied ten 2 1/2 gallon jugs of DEF into our buses tank in the 15,000 miles we have driven it this year, I just chuck the empties into the recycling bin.

Why yes, the ORIGinal CHARGER is a Fastback

Edited by - Fastback on 04/12/2012 05:17:48 AM
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JRob
Senior Member

182 Posts

Posted - 04/12/2012 :  09:51:18 AM  Show Profile  Visit JRob's Homepage  Reply with Quote
DEF crystallizes when it mixes with air outside its container. I'm a little surprised at the amount of corrosion on the wood but that could be a reaction with a chemical used in in the plywood itself. At the end of the day, its another shop chemical like fuel, coolant, hydraulic fluid, oil, etc.

I would go for the stainless if you can afford the $400. It's a long term purchase and stainless is just a better option over the long term, IMO.
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Thomasbus24
Administrator

USA
3344 Posts

Posted - 04/12/2012 :  11:49:00 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Stopped by NAPA on my way home last night and ordered the stainless one.

I hadn't considered that the plywood might have had a chemical additive...that could well be the case. In any event, the plywood is being retired!
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bwest
Administrator

United States
2324 Posts

Posted - 04/12/2012 :  2:05:39 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Thomasbus24

Here ya go fellas...

http://www.flickr.com/photos/27265743@N03/sets/72157629795702225/



Wow, that's gnarly. I didn't know that would do that to wood. Do you think it is attacking the glue?

Bryan
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Wolf0r
Top Member

USA
2179 Posts

Posted - 04/13/2012 :  09:49:24 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
We sell that stuff in gallon jugs at our Napa store. We can get 55 gallons and 330 gallons on order. People around here locally just buy the gallons.

“The good thing about science is that it's true whether or not you believe in it.”
Neil deGrasse Tyson
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partsman_ba
Administrator

United States
290 Posts

Posted - 04/13/2012 :  2:05:19 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Thomasbus24

quote:
Originally posted by tigger2

because once the DEF is dried out by the air it forms crusty chunks unless the equipment is washed down after filling a unit.



Yep, and that crap will find its way into the bus' tank. Does it disolve into the DEF again? DEF filter replacement interval is 250,000 miles mind you.

I think BlueDEF is the company installing the tubes in advance, do you know of any specific others? Gotta talk to my NAPA guy about this one, he's cheaper on drums than the oil company anyways!

My saving grace for now is that only the most senior drivers have these buses, and they are the type that will take care of the equipment once shown how.



Pretty sure it dissolves. We had a warranty issue a couple of months ago where the tech found our DEF was too concentrated. The tote tested out just fine, so we surmised that dried crystals were dropping in off the filler nozzle.
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Thomasbus24
Administrator

USA
3344 Posts

Posted - 04/16/2012 :  03:43:40 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Any idea what the % was on the bad DEF? I've been curious just how tolerant these SCR systems are to variables such as this case.
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Thomasbus24
Administrator

USA
3344 Posts

Posted - 05/04/2012 :  02:53:46 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by deragoku

Basically the same engine, but its emissions in different ways, it is to adjust the operating shuttle service.



What, no link with spam messages now? And to think I was looking forward to spending my Friday infecting the school networks with trojans and viruses and worms!
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bwest
Administrator

United States
2324 Posts

Posted - 05/10/2012 :  11:42:01 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Just got my Napa flyer. $819 for drum pump and 20' of hose. $779 for drum pump and 10' of hose. $779 for tote pump and 10' of hose and $819 for tote pump and 20' of hose. Don't know what the difference is between the drum and tote pumps. I would say nothing except the length of the dip tube.

Bryan
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Thomasbus24
Administrator

USA
3344 Posts

Posted - 05/10/2012 :  12:01:34 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
That system is designed for the BlueDEF brand (just like the one I bought). I don't know what the difference is either, the one I bought just takes a different connection coupler to hook up to the drum or tote. BlueDEF has the dip tube built into the drum/tote so that's a non-issue.

I'm enjoying having a sealed system, and not having the guys lifting a freakin drum 4' in the air anymore. The ladies who drive the new buses are happy too...that is priceless!

Incidentally, the plywood completely fell apart when we moved it, so I'd say it did attack the glue maybe.

Edited by - Thomasbus24 on 05/10/2012 12:02:38 PM
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partsman_ba
Administrator

United States
290 Posts

Posted - 05/10/2012 :  12:27:02 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Thomasbus24

Any idea what the % was on the bad DEF? I've been curious just how tolerant these SCR systems are to variables such as this case.


Sorry, didn't see this post. It's been too long ago for me to remember the exact numbers, and my warranty paperwork just shows "out of spec."
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partsman_ba
Administrator

United States
290 Posts

Posted - 05/10/2012 :  12:31:15 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Fastback

quote:
Originally posted by bwest

quote:
Originally posted by tigger2

because once the DEF is dried out by the air it forms crusty chunks unless the equipment is washed down after filling a unit.


Wow, more unforeseen problems. Washed down after each use? I can see my drivers doing that, not.



Your drivers would never have to do it, DEF tank capacity easily takes the bus from service interval to service interval without having to add more fluid.
I have emptied ten 2 1/2 gallon jugs of DEF into our buses tank in the 15,000 miles we have driven it this year, I just chuck the empties into the recycling bin.



Hate to tell you all, but we are finding that our buses need filling between service intervals. We have the driver write up a slip when the level gets below 20%, and then either take care of it during downtime or have the driver pull in after route.
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