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Wolf0r
Top Member
USA
2181 Posts |
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C2FAN
Senior Member
United States
114 Posts |
 Posted - 09/02/2010 : 11:18:36 AM
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| Funny stuff. Sounds like something IC would come up with. |
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Milko in gambia
Active Member
Gambia
23 Posts |
Posted - 09/02/2010 : 11:33:21 AM
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| Only if you can hold it for 8 to 16 days to get the concentration up according to the article LOL |
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bwest
Administrator
United States
3820 Posts |
Posted - 09/02/2010 : 2:00:33 PM
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| That is funny! |
Bryan |
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94AmTranVolunteer
Advanced Member
264 Posts |
Posted - 09/05/2010 : 7:33:57 PM
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| Something that IC would Come up with. LMAO |
Answering Electrical Problems One at a Time. |
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mr.thomas
Senior Member
USA
92 Posts |
Posted - 09/13/2010 : 9:02:34 PM
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| haha lol |
YOUR CHILDS SAFETY IS OUR BUSINESS!!! |
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ICBUSMAN
New Member
Canada
3 Posts |
Posted - 09/15/2010 : 07:48:26 AM
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Fact is... you can, or just plain old tap water will do too!
The Urea tank has no way of detecting what liquid is being injected in to the exhaust. |
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Wolf0r
Top Member
USA
2181 Posts |
Posted - 09/15/2010 : 09:18:17 AM
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| "Sensors in the urea tank monitor the concentration of urea. If you put in the wrong stuff, from pure water to windshield washer fluid to human urine, the car won't run." Quote from article. |
“The good thing about science is that it's true whether or not you believe in it.”
Neil deGrasse Tyson |
Edited by - Wolf0r on 09/15/2010 09:19:00 AM |
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Fastback
Top Member
1500 Posts |
Posted - 09/15/2010 : 12:25:17 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by Wolf0r
"Sensors in the urea tank monitor the concentration of urea. If you put in the wrong stuff, from pure water to windshield washer fluid to human urine, the car won't run." Quote from article.
I don't think this is totally accurate. As I understand it the tank won't care what you put in it but sensors in the exhaust will tell engine computer that NOX is not being reduced to appropriate levels and eventually the engine will derate and ultimately won't restart if not corrected, similar action occurs if you run the tank empty. |
Why yes, the ORIGinal CHARGER is a Fastback |
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Cal Mc
Advanced Member
303 Posts |
Posted - 09/15/2010 : 4:08:41 PM
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| Too bad it won't work. A school bus would have an endless supply! |
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bus724
Top Member
USA
1609 Posts |
Posted - 09/15/2010 : 6:14:07 PM
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| You mean we can't put a restroom in the back of the bus with a urinal over the DEF tank? |
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Wolf0r
Top Member
USA
2181 Posts |
Posted - 09/17/2010 : 07:34:00 AM
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| My brother in law has one of those BMW suv. The dealer fills his free when ever its low. I'll get his manual out and see what it says. The bus may be different I haven't got the chance to see one yet. |
“The good thing about science is that it's true whether or not you believe in it.”
Neil deGrasse Tyson |
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Fastback
Top Member
1500 Posts |
Posted - 09/17/2010 : 09:06:42 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by Wolf0r
My brother in law has one of those BMW suv. The dealer fills his free when ever its low. I'll get his manual out and see what it says. The bus may be different I haven't got the chance to see one yet.
To elaborate from what I have read;
The EPA requires NOX sensors in the exhaust stream on the SCR/DEF consuming vehicles to verify compliance with the standard, wrong or no DEF fluid = noncompliance.
Conversly, engines certified to meet 2010 emissions "in engine" are not required to have any more sensors in the exhaust than the 2007 engines. |
Why yes, the ORIGinal CHARGER is a Fastback |
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JustinB
Advanced Member
United States
490 Posts |
Posted - 09/17/2010 : 09:54:04 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by Fastback
quote:
Originally posted by Wolf0r
My brother in law has one of those BMW suv. The dealer fills his free when ever its low. I'll get his manual out and see what it says. The bus may be different I haven't got the chance to see one yet.
To elaborate from what I have read;
The EPA requires NOX sensors in the exhaust stream on the SCR/DEF consuming vehicles to verify compliance with the standard, wrong or no DEF fluid = noncompliance.
Conversly, engines certified to meet 2010 emissions "in engine" are not required to have any more sensors in the exhaust than the 2007 engines.
Easier to defeat without the dash driving operators bonkers?
No on-board verification of compliance?
Sounds a lot like Cat Bridge & ACCERT motors that had the catalyst stacks shelved in favor of $50 Donaldson mufflers. |
I may not know the answer but I can usually find who does. |
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Fastback
Top Member
1500 Posts |
Posted - 09/17/2010 : 11:26:23 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by JustinB
quote:
Originally posted by Fastback
quote:
Originally posted by Wolf0r
My brother in law has one of those BMW suv. The dealer fills his free when ever its low. I'll get his manual out and see what it says. The bus may be different I haven't got the chance to see one yet.
To elaborate from what I have read;
The EPA requires NOX sensors in the exhaust stream on the SCR/DEF consuming vehicles to verify compliance with the standard, wrong or no DEF fluid = noncompliance.
Conversly, engines certified to meet 2010 emissions "in engine" are not required to have any more sensors in the exhaust than the 2007 engines.
Easier to defeat without the dash driving operators bonkers?
No on-board verification of compliance?
Sounds a lot like Cat Bridge & ACCERT motors that had the catalyst stacks shelved in favor of $50 Donaldson mufflers.
Well, there have been NOX emission standards for years and no one was required to have sensors on board verifying compliance as it was done in engine.
No manufacturer was forced to choose an aftertreatment system that depended on vehicle operator actions to stay in compliance.
Sounds like sour grapes  |
Why yes, the ORIGinal CHARGER is a Fastback |
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bus724
Top Member
USA
1609 Posts |
Posted - 09/17/2010 : 2:55:29 PM
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| On the subject of urea, had to top off our 2 new HDXs with 2010 ISBs for the first time today (I'm the driver/fluid checker/bulb changer). Took 6+ gallons to fill both tanks, with 2400 miles between the 2 buses since the tech topped them off just prior to being placed in service. So much for "3 or 4 times a year." |
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JRob
Advanced Member
207 Posts |
Posted - 09/19/2010 : 05:08:28 AM
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quote:
On the subject of urea, had to top off our 2 new HDXs with 2010 ISBs for the first time today (I'm the driver/fluid checker/bulb changer). Took 6+ gallons to fill both tanks, with 2400 miles between the 2 buses since the tech topped them off just prior to being placed in service. So much for "3 or 4 times a year."
Each tank is advertised at ~12 gallons so you only added about 1/4 of the capacity. Just splitting the 2400 miles down the middle would seem to indicate you are getting somewhere in the neighborhood of 400 miles/gallon.
Did the gauge indicate a fill was required? |
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bus724
Top Member
USA
1609 Posts |
Posted - 09/19/2010 : 5:47:57 PM
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| Gauge indicated 3/4, but I figured I'd top them off to figure out how much they take. |
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NWCROWN
Advanced Member
USA
461 Posts |
Posted - 09/19/2010 : 7:58:54 PM
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| My local GM dealer parts department had on display a few gallons of "GM Diesel Exhaust Fluid" the other day. I didn't ask what they charged for it. |
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JustinB
Advanced Member
United States
490 Posts |
Posted - 09/20/2010 : 05:42:16 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by Fastback
quote:
Originally posted by JustinB
quote:
Originally posted by Fastback
quote:
Originally posted by Wolf0r
My brother in law has one of those BMW suv. The dealer fills his free when ever its low. I'll get his manual out and see what it says. The bus may be different I haven't got the chance to see one yet.
To elaborate from what I have read;
The EPA requires NOX sensors in the exhaust stream on the SCR/DEF consuming vehicles to verify compliance with the standard, wrong or no DEF fluid = noncompliance.
Conversly, engines certified to meet 2010 emissions "in engine" are not required to have any more sensors in the exhaust than the 2007 engines.
Easier to defeat without the dash driving operators bonkers?
No on-board verification of compliance?
Sounds a lot like Cat Bridge & ACCERT motors that had the catalyst stacks shelved in favor of $50 Donaldson mufflers.
Well, there have been NOX emission standards for years and no one was required to have sensors on board verifying compliance as it was done in engine.
No manufacturer was forced to choose an aftertreatment system that depended on vehicle operator actions to stay in compliance.
Sounds like sour grapes
At the end of the year:
- compare your A-EGR fuel bill with similar routed SCR units
- Check out the number of fueled regens on the DPF. (most SCR ISBs are at 1800-2000 miles)
- Check the oil dillution issues on the IC vs the increased demasnd for DPF regenerations
- Watch IC release their capitve/unique/exclusivee cannister of SCR Paste for 2012
Do you really want to perform or pay over $85/hr for that 75,000 mile overhead service on the DT? Take a look under the hood prior to answering.  |
I may not know the answer but I can usually find who does. |
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78fordwayne
Top Member
USA
2868 Posts |
Posted - 09/20/2010 : 07:18:15 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by JustinB
[quote]Originally posted by JustinB
[quote]Originally posted by Fastback
Do you really want to perform or pay over $85/hr for that 75,000 mile overhead service on the DT? Take a look under the hood prior to answering.
What are you talking about? |
Robert B.
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Edited by - 78fordwayne on 09/20/2010 07:20:07 AM |
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JustinB
Advanced Member
United States
490 Posts |
Posted - 09/20/2010 : 07:36:25 AM
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78fordwayne - I was referring to the EGR cooler configuration on the DT.
6 hours is the short end of estimated time to R&R the EGR Coolers & Valve Cover. Things that need to be done just to get at the overhead to adjust valve lashes as scheduled at 75,000 miles. This 75,000 service is per the DT maintenance manual.
The same R&R applies to accessing injectors. |
I may not know the answer but I can usually find who does. |
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Fastback
Top Member
1500 Posts |
Posted - 09/20/2010 : 08:02:16 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by JustinB
78fordwayne - I was referring to the EGR cooler configuration on the DT.
6 hours is the short end of estimated time to R&R the EGR Coolers & Valve Cover. Things that need to be done just to get at the overhead to adjust valve lashes as scheduled at 75,000 miles. This 75,000 service is per the DT maintenance manual.
The same R&R applies to accessing injectors.
The LONE EGR cooler is mounted on the side of the engine block, no reason to touch it in order to remove rocker cover to adjust the valve lash which International claims is needed at intervals 70,000 more miles than the competition. The only cooler mounted on top of the rocker cover is an aftercooler which is used on ratings of 245 horsepower and greater, not many of those will make it into school buses. |
Why yes, the ORIGinal CHARGER is a Fastback |
Edited by - Fastback on 09/20/2010 08:17:38 AM |
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Fastback
Top Member
1500 Posts |
Posted - 09/20/2010 : 08:38:19 AM
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"compare your A-EGR fuel bill with similar routed SCR units"
Compare your SCR DEF bill with similar routed A-EGR units.
"Check the oil dillution issues on the IC vs the increased demasnd for DPF regenerations"
Oil dilution issues should not be an concern with the 2010 MaxxForce DTs downstream injection system, no more in cylinder dosing for DPF regeneration.
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Why yes, the ORIGinal CHARGER is a Fastback |
Edited by - Fastback on 09/21/2010 05:36:56 AM |
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JustinB
Advanced Member
United States
490 Posts |
Posted - 09/20/2010 : 10:02:47 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by Fastback
quote:
Originally posted by JustinB
78fordwayne - I was referring to the EGR cooler configuration on the DT.
6 hours is the short end of estimated time to R&R the EGR Coolers & Valve Cover. Things that need to be done just to get at the overhead to adjust valve lashes as scheduled at 75,000 miles. This 75,000 service is per the DT maintenance manual.
The same R&R applies to accessing injectors.
The LONE EGR cooler is mounted on the side of the engine block, no reason to touch it in order to remove rocker cover to adjust the valve lash which International claims is needed at intervals 70,000 more miles than the competition. The only cooler mounted on top of the rocker cover is an aftercooler which is used on ratings of 245 horsepower and greater, not many of those will make it into school buses.
Oh, I'm sorry.
- I see on the Western States presentation that they stretched the OH adjustment on the DT to 120,000 miles. The Diamond Care brochure showed 75,000 miles (down from 100,000) until this past summer.
- I have yet to see a photo of a fully dressed DT that lacks the 2nd cooler. The advertisements show the engine sans any coolers at all. The brochures I've been able to google-up have the 2nd cooler on them.
- The only pics I've seen of an installation are the CAD drawings on the Western States Hwy Equip Mgrs presentation. Nothing has been out there regarding photos of actual iron in EPA '10 trim. |
I may not know the answer but I can usually find who does. |
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Fastback
Top Member
1500 Posts |
Posted - 09/20/2010 : 11:00:03 AM
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http://maxxforce.com/Application/on-highway/Engine/MaxxForce_DT
Try the 360 degree view. EGR cooler is below exhaust manifold, between turbo and engine block, location should reduce possibility of air pockets. It also appears that you can see the downstream injector in the pipe after the turbo. |
Why yes, the ORIGinal CHARGER is a Fastback |
Edited by - Fastback on 09/20/2010 11:06:11 AM |
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JustinB
Advanced Member
United States
490 Posts |
Posted - 09/21/2010 : 07:10:17 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by Fastback
"compare your A-EGR fuel bill with similar routed SCR units"
Compare your SCR DEF bill with similar routed A-EGR units.
"Check the oil dillution issues on the IC vs the increased demasnd for DPF regenerations"
Oil dilution issues should not be an concern with the 2010 MaxxForce DTs downstream injection system, no more in cylinder dosing for DPF regeneration.
Glad to hear that they dillution issue is being resolved.
RE: A-EGR fuel cost vs. SCR+ Fuel cost. Let's take a look at what real world fleets see.
Aug 26, 2010 – Fleet Owner Magazine
A.)“We’ve had two years worth of experience with trucks equipped with SCR; both in terms of demonstration units and equipment placed with customers for every day service,” he said. “Unfortunately, we don’t have a similar experience with E-EGR; we haven’t received any of these engines yet.”
B.)“….. a net 9.3% fuel economy gain is impressive – especially since the OEMs predicted a far more conservative 3% to 5% gain..”
C.)“These are some pretty impressive numbers.”
–Ralph Stockmayer, manager of sustainability, Penske Truck Leasing
Navistar is embarrassingly silent on EPA '10 issues of fuel economy gains, stabilty or reduction vs their EPA '07 product. MaxxForce field fleet experience is virtually without existance in fully configured EPA '10 trim.
The 5-8% gain Cummins is seeing in the field does include DEF in the equation. This gain means that vs '07 the ISB will save operators $1000 every 20,000 miles.
Cummins ISB EPA '07 has outperformed the DT EPA '07 regarding fuel economy by fleet averages of 1/2 mpg @ minimum. To stack another 5-8% on that is big savings. |
I may not know the answer but I can usually find who does. |
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78fordwayne
Top Member
USA
2868 Posts |
Posted - 09/21/2010 : 07:52:33 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by JustinB
[br
RE: A-EGR fuel cost vs. SCR+ Fuel cost. Let's take a look at what real world fleets see.
Aug 26, 2010 – Fleet Owner Magazine
A.)“We’ve had two years worth of experience with trucks equipped with SCR; both in terms of demonstration units and equipment placed with customers for every day service,” he said. “Unfortunately, we don’t have a similar experience with E-EGR; we haven’t received any of these engines yet.”
B.)“….. a net 9.3% fuel economy gain is impressive – especially since the OEMs predicted a far more conservative 3% to 5% gain..”
C.)“These are some pretty impressive numbers.”
–Ralph Stockmayer, manager of sustainability, Penske Truck Leasing
Navistar is embarrassingly silent on EPA '10 issues of fuel economy gains, stabilty or reduction vs their EPA '07 product. MaxxForce field fleet experience is virtually without existance in fully configured EPA '10 trim.
The 5-8% gain Cummins is seeing in the field does include DEF in the equation. This gain means that vs '07 the ISB will save operators $1000 every 20,000 miles.
Cummins ISB EPA '07 has outperformed the DT EPA '07 regarding fuel economy by fleet averages of 1/2 mpg @ minimum. To stack another 5-8% on that is big savings.
You are not compareing the two with "real world fleets" like you say because your "real world fleet" is only one sided. |
Edited by - 78fordwayne on 09/21/2010 07:53:39 AM |
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JustinB
Advanced Member
United States
490 Posts |
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Fastback
Top Member
1500 Posts |
Posted - 09/21/2010 : 11:55:04 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by JustinB
I guess we can wait to compare when IC finally gets the product into fleet's hands for a year or two. Right now, it has been (in final production trim) less than a month or two.
Just because there have been SCR equipped trucks in the "real world test fleets" prior to the 2010 standards doesn't guarantee that they actually met 2010 standards.
What was to stop them from putting out a fleet of SCR trucks tuned for maximum fuel mileage without regard for actually meeting the 2010 standards to gain acceptance for using DEF ahead of the game?
Predicting 3-5% and getting 9.3%....hmmmmmmmmmmmmmm
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Why yes, the ORIGinal CHARGER is a Fastback |
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JRob
Advanced Member
207 Posts |
Posted - 09/21/2010 : 6:15:42 PM
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You can do that but Emission certification numbers are public so a consumer could verify just how close any manufacturer is to meeting the actual 0.2 level. This would tell you whether the improvements in fuel economy are artificially high temporarily. The California Air Resources Board publishes their cert docs at the following link.
http://www.arb.ca.gov/msprog/onroad/cert/cert.php
Looks like the certification levels are as follows:
Navistar Maxxforce 7 = 0.46
Navistar Maxxforce DT = 0.42
Cummins ISB = 0.38
Cummisn ISC = 0.18
Looks like Cummins is using credits for the B but definitely not the C
FWIW, the Hino is at 0.19 |
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Fastback
Top Member
1500 Posts |
Posted - 09/21/2010 : 6:43:06 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by JRob
You can do that but Emission certification numbers are public so a consumer could verify just how close any manufacturer is to meeting the actual 0.2 level. This would tell you whether the improvements in fuel economy are artificially high temporarily. The California Air Resources Board publishes their cert docs at the following link.
http://www.arb.ca.gov/msprog/onroad/cert/cert.php
Looks like the certification levels are as follows:
Navistar Maxxforce 7 = 0.46
Navistar Maxxforce DT = 0.42
Cummins ISB = 0.38
Cummisn ISC = 0.18
Looks like Cummins is using credits for the B but definitely not the C
FWIW, the Hino is at 0.19
 Navistar gets beat up for using credits and Cummins praised for fuel economy and the ISB is hardly any closer to being cranked down to the 0.2 level than Navistar.
When the 0.38 becomes 0.2 maybe the 9% will trun into 3-5% |
Why yes, the ORIGinal CHARGER is a Fastback |
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C2FAN
Senior Member
United States
114 Posts |
Posted - 09/21/2010 : 8:12:18 PM
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[/quote]
Navistar gets beat up for using credits and Cummins praised for fuel economy and the ISB is hardly any closer to being cranked down to the 0.2 level than Navistar.
When the 0.38 becomes 0.2 maybe the 9% will trun into 3-5%
[/quote]
The only thing that will happen when Cummins cranks down their emissions is the SCR system will dose at a higher rate. I was told a few months ago by a corporate employee at Navistar that their E-EGR engine still cannot meet true 2010 emission standards. They don't have any qualms telling people that. It's also no secret that they will probably only build their E-EGR engines for two years until they can get their own version of an SCR system developed. They've already purchased technology from a European company late last year, I imagine they already have DT's running on some type of SCR systems on a test pad somewhere.
Trying to stay non biased about this whole thing, It's still not hard to think that Navistar got this one wrong. I have to chuckle every time I see their add of the back on an STN magazine stating that "IC the company that solved emission problems" when they are switching their technology in 2012.
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Cal Mc
Advanced Member
303 Posts |
Posted - 09/21/2010 : 8:46:09 PM
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I have been told that IC is running SCR in units in south america as
a trial. But.... this information did come from a dealer selling
Cummins engines. |
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JustinB
Advanced Member
United States
490 Posts |
Posted - 09/22/2010 : 05:40:54 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by Cal Mc
I have been told that IC is running SCR in units in south america as
a trial. But.... this information did come from a dealer selling
Cummins engines.
Their VW business forced IC to go SCR in S america. VW went down the A-EGR route with MAN(IC engine design) for EU '06 emissions & lost big. Due to market share & fuel economy degradation MAN switched to SCR in '08. The EU emission change schedule was & is '06 & then '12. |
I may not know the answer but I can usually find who does. |
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Fastback
Top Member
1500 Posts |
Posted - 09/28/2010 : 07:57:57 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by C2FAN
The only thing that will happen when Cummins cranks down their emissions is the SCR system will dose at a higher rate.
And how do you know this to be fact? Source? |
Why yes, the ORIGinal CHARGER is a Fastback |
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Topic |
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Can I pee in my urea tank?
