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JustinB
Advanced Member
United States
490 Posts |
 Posted - 09/28/2010 : 10:32:43 AM
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Cummins had been claiming a 2% rate of consumption ( 100gal fuel to 2 gallon of DEF)ratio. The certified trim (.38 g/hp-hr) has been running at 1.5%. .5% seems like small spuds on the final $s.
The obvious rebuttal question: Just how much is that captive Annimex paste cannister going to cost in 2012 ICs?
FWIW: Iveco has an engine that would meet EU-2012 @ 6% SCR rate & no EGR & a DMF ilo DPF. A purchse +10 year life cycle estimate @ 15,000 miles per year shows > $12,000 savings vs an EGE/SCR/DPF combo & >$20,000 over A-EGR. |
I may not know the answer but I can usually find who does. |
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Fastback
Top Member
1500 Posts |
Posted - 09/28/2010 : 11:34:02 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by JustinB
The obvious rebuttal question: Just how much is that captive Annimex paste cannister going to cost in 2012 ICs?
There are 2012 ICs on the Dealer lots now, no paste cannisters.
Again does anyone KNOW that the credit using .38 SCR Cummins hasn't altered the rate of EGR to achieve that level of emissions and won't have to crank it up to meet 0.2? |
Why yes, the ORIGinal CHARGER is a Fastback |
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JustinB
Advanced Member
United States
490 Posts |
Posted - 09/28/2010 : 2:24:05 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by Fastback
quote:
Originally posted by JustinB
The obvious rebuttal question: Just how much is that captive Annimex paste cannister going to cost in 2012 ICs?
There are 2012 ICs on the Dealer lots now, no paste cannisters.
Again does anyone KNOW that the credit using .38 SCR Cummins hasn't altered the rate of EGR to achieve that level of emissions and won't have to crank it up to meet 0.2?
2 year jump eh? That's some creative titlework. 
I was referring to calendar year 2012. That's the point when IC's credits die too & the IC captive Amminex Paste cannister becomes their new solution....
The project managers I've spoken with are pretty confident that the EGR won't cross 15%. 20-25% is when fuel economy starts to become significantly compromized. (IC currentoly 37% @ manifold + 20+% in-cylinder ala Accert & Mack EGR-I, Both of which are now on-road extinct)
SCR rates will simply slide back to the original 2% claims.
- Kinda' like the EGR & SCR rates already are in the ISC, ISL, ISX platforms.
- also like the EGR & SCR rates are in the DD13 & DD15.
- Also like the EGR & SCR rates are in the VED13.
- Also like the EGR & SCR rates are in the Isuzus, Mitusbishis, & Hinos.
- Not sure of the rates on the new Ford (non IC)Scorpion diesel. There is still a dispute on who owns the credits from the last couple of years. |
I may not know the answer but I can usually find who does. |
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Fastback
Top Member
1500 Posts |
Posted - 09/29/2010 : 04:50:34 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by JustinB
quote:
Originally posted by Fastback
quote:
Originally posted by JustinB
The obvious rebuttal question: Just how much is that captive Annimex paste cannister going to cost in 2012 ICs?
There are 2012 ICs on the Dealer lots now, no paste cannisters.
Again does anyone KNOW that the credit using .38 SCR Cummins hasn't altered the rate of EGR to achieve that level of emissions and won't have to crank it up to meet 0.2?
2 year jump eh? That's some creative titlework.
I was referring to calendar year 2012. That's the point when IC's credits die too & the IC captive Amminex Paste cannister becomes their new solution....
You've already demonstrated through this thread that your word does not have much credibility as far as what IC is actually doing with their 2010 EPA engines, why would anyone think you have any about what IC will actually do in calendar year 2012? |
Why yes, the ORIGinal CHARGER is a Fastback |
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JustinB
Advanced Member
United States
490 Posts |
Posted - 09/29/2010 : 05:52:19 AM
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You seem to have missed the sarcasm on many of the above posts. You also seemed to have missed much of page #1. Don't forget that Cummins started down the same A-EGR road 4 years ago. Cummins has the same data set & has not been afraid to use it.... against IC. The A-EGR system is maxx-ed out for NOx control & nowhere near complying to the spec when the clock runs out in 2012 & EPA credits are no longer usable.
You also seemed to have missed much of page #1.
quote:
Originally posted by JustinB
I guess we can wait to compare when IC finally gets the product into fleet's hands for a year or two. Right now, it has been (in final production trim) less than a month or two.
Wonder how long before IC starts integrating the Amminex SCR system into their production. Most bets are for 2012.
http://www.amminex.net/images/stories/amminex%20press%20release%20211209.pdf
http://www.amminex.net/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=107&Itemid=146
That's a pretty significant investment to hedge against "the only real solution...everybody else is wrong" marketing disposition. Ask EU operators just how well MAN/Skania's "Just Add Fuel" system worked in '06. MAN/Skania went to SCR in '08 because of lost market share due to the added cost of running the A-EGR system. The MaxxForce induction & emissions system is a licensed design from MAN.
http://www.google.com/#sclient=psy&hl=en&q=MaxxForce+MAN+Diesel&aq=f&aqi=&aql=&oq=&gs_rfai=&pbx=1&fp=372bd5106aa9362c
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I may not know the answer but I can usually find who does. |
Edited by - JustinB on 09/29/2010 06:02:08 AM |
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JRob
Advanced Member
207 Posts |
Posted - 09/29/2010 : 07:08:13 AM
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The Euro Diesel emission standards need some clarification.
All european diesel manufacturers went with SCR to handle Euro V emission standards initially. Euro V went into effect in calender year '08. It is roughly equivalent to US EPA07.
SCR was chosen as the emissions control strategy in Europe largely because they were more aggressive earlier than the US on Particulate Matter. The best way to control PM is to not produce it. EGR has the side effect typically of producing PM which is why you saw DPF's in US fleets in '07. SCR just made more sense to them based on their emission control priorities.
MAN and Scania both released EGR-only engines for Euro V specifically to address certain markets. Think far north Scandanavia and parts of underdeveloped Eastern Europe. MAN, in particular, was aggressively pursuing and EGR-only solution and even touted that they would have something for Euro VI (which goes into effect in '13). However, MAN has since come back and said that they can't go that route. They have stated that Euro VI can only be achieved operationally with a mix of EGR & SCR. Once again, pretty much where everyone else in the world has arrived for meeting the actual EPA10 NOx and PM levels.
Navistar touting MAN and Scania going the EGR-only route was misleading in my view because they were referencing a standard that was equivalent to EPA07 which is pretty much what everyone over here was doing anyway and not related to Euro VI.
Navistar has been pretty public that they will likely have to do something additional once their credits run out. Their investment in Amminex is just one of those signals. You can probably find quotes out there from Dan Ustian and John Allen on the subject. Jim Hebe has been very vocal on EGR-only but he's the sales guy so he's just pushing what he's got to sell.
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Fastback
Top Member
1500 Posts |
Posted - 09/29/2010 : 08:25:39 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by JustinB
You seem to have missed the sarcasm on many of the above posts. You also seemed to have missed much of page #1. Don't forget that Cummins started down the same A-EGR road 4 years ago. Cummins has the same data set & has not been afraid to use it.... against IC. The A-EGR system is maxx-ed out for NOx control & nowhere near complying to the spec when the clock runs out in 2012 & EPA credits are no longer usable.
You also seemed to have missed much of page #1.
[quote]Originally posted by JustinB
I guess we can wait to compare when IC finally gets the product into fleet's hands for a year or two. Right now, it has been (in final production trim) less than a month or two.
Wonder how long before IC starts integrating the Amminex SCR system into their production. Most bets are for 2012.
http://www.amminex.net/images/stories/amminex%20press%20release%20211209.pdf
http://www.amminex.net/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=107&Itemid=146
This bit of your misinformation I didn't miss was on page 1;
"6 hours is the short end of estimated time to R&R the EGR Coolers & Valve Cover. Things that need to be done just to get at the overhead to adjust valve lashes as scheduled at 75,000 miles. This 75,000 service is per the DT maintenance manual.
The same R&R applies to accessing injectors."
"Do you really want to perform or pay over $85/hr for that 75,000 mile overhead service on the DT? Take a look under the hood prior to answering."
"Check the oil dillution issues on the IC vs the increased demasnd for DPF regenerations"
"Don't forget that Cummins started down the same A-EGR road 4 years ago."
I definately have not.
And since as you say; "MaxxForce field fleet experience is virtually without existance in fully configured EPA '10 trim.",
the below is just speculation presented as fact;
"Cummins has the same data set & has not been afraid to use it.... against IC. The A-EGR system is maxx-ed out for NOx control & nowhere near complying to the spec when the clock runs out in 2012 & EPA credits are no longer usable."
Once again I ask if you don't know what IC is doing for 2010 how do you know what they are doing for 2012???
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Why yes, the ORIGinal CHARGER is a Fastback |
Edited by - Fastback on 09/29/2010 08:27:54 AM |
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JustinB
Advanced Member
United States
490 Posts |
Posted - 09/29/2010 : 09:30:32 AM
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Follow the links & check JRob's post.
I quickly offered my retractions on the dillution & low HP 2nd cooler issues. The information prior to that had been limited.
Actual production trim views kept well gaurded secrets prior to the last month. Hoods weren't even allowed to be opened in the IH display at the Mid-America Truck show in March. Three months after the emissions changes took effect.
Such Hebe antics have encouraged closer scrutiny & question the long-term viability of the IC EGR only mantra. This is why I posed the Amminex question. |
I may not know the answer but I can usually find who does. |
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Fastback
Top Member
1500 Posts |
Posted - 09/29/2010 : 1:43:42 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by JustinB
Follow the links & check JRob's post.
I quickly offered my retractions on the dillution & low HP 2nd cooler issues. The information prior to that had been limited.
Actual production trim views kept well gaurded secrets prior to the last month. Hoods weren't even allowed to be opened in the IH display at the Mid-America Truck show in March. Three months after the emissions changes took effect.
Such Hebe antics have encouraged closer scrutiny & question the long-term viability of the IC EGR only mantra. This is why I posed the Amminex question.
Yes, I have checked all the links and read all the posts. The most enlightening of which was the revelation that the 2010 EPA B-series Cummins is barely any cleaner running than the 2010 EPA MaxxForce DT despite all the hoopla we have heard about the credits.
IC makes no such claim as to being EGR only, I would note that you could of phrased it as the "long-term viability of Advanced EGR" which would of made you sound a bit more objective and less like a Cummins salesman |
Why yes, the ORIGinal CHARGER is a Fastback |
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JustinB
Advanced Member
United States
490 Posts |
Posted - 09/29/2010 : 2:00:22 PM
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LOL - Kinda like the local IC salesman.
Both IC(MF6.4)& Cummins (ISB)are burning off their credits as fast as they can before the credits die on Jan 1, 2012.
Cummins & Detroit Diesel have proven their SCR on the remainder of their product line in full compliance & over a year on the road, in fully certified trim, operating in customer fleets with similar results. The pre-production trim SCR vehicles were out in the field & getting played with for the year prior to that. |
I may not know the answer but I can usually find who does. |
Edited by - JustinB on 09/29/2010 2:01:26 PM |
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mr.bluebird
Active Member
United States
44 Posts |
Posted - 01/05/2011 : 8:15:12 PM
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| haha,lol |
YOUR CHILDS SAFETY IS OUR BUSINESS!!! |
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Can I pee in my urea tank?
