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second.flood
Advanced Member

USA
366 Posts

Posted - 12/14/2006 :  05:10:24 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Anyone have issues with IC's entrance doors flexing and opening at highway speeds? Outward opening, air operated. I have turned the air to 50 p.s.i., and adjusted the linkage several times... can't seem to improve them.

CPCSC_TD
Top Member

USA
657 Posts

Posted - 12/14/2006 :  05:29:26 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Yes
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second.flood
Advanced Member

USA
366 Posts

Posted - 12/14/2006 :  06:55:11 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Any resolution through International?
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CPCSC_TD
Top Member

USA
657 Posts

Posted - 12/15/2006 :  04:22:40 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
We never brought it to their attention. These happen to be our special needs buses. We simply do not allow students in the first row of seats.

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Bluebird62
Top Member

USA
530 Posts

Posted - 12/15/2006 :  3:40:12 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by CPCSC_TD

We never brought it to their attention. These happen to be our special needs buses. We simply do not allow students in the first row of seats.




Wow! That's an interesting solution

I have not had this happen with IC, but have with Thomas' electric doors.
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IBTMech
Top Member

USA
973 Posts

Posted - 12/15/2006 :  6:09:12 PM  Show Profile  Visit IBTMech's Homepage  Reply with Quote
I've had it happen with Thomas air doors.

If it doesn't fit, FORCE it.
If it breaks, well, it needed replacing anyway.
Pullin' wrenches for 45 years.
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CPCSC_TD
Top Member

USA
657 Posts

Posted - 12/15/2006 :  7:27:37 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Believe it or not- when manufacturers did away with piano style hinges, this happened to all of them.

The larger the door, the easier it seems to open. This of course has to do with the regulation above.

This can be adjusted. We choose not to since we leave the first row open anyhow.

Our dealer would have been more than happy to assist us.
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Thomasbus24
Administrator

USA
3345 Posts

Posted - 12/16/2006 :  04:50:53 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Where the heck is Modmech? He holds the answer for all of the IC door issues!
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Midwest
Active Member

USA
19 Posts

Posted - 12/16/2006 :  07:38:21 AM  Show Profile  Visit Midwest's Homepage  Reply with Quote
I asked our service people what they find and here is the response:
On the few occasions we've had the problem, we adjusted the pressure to 60psi, adjusted the linkage and reset the soft seat valves to stop the doors from slamming. Haven't heard any complaints after the adjustments.
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second.flood
Advanced Member

USA
366 Posts

Posted - 12/16/2006 :  11:44:35 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
I have the problem on three IC's, all purchased at the same time. IC (ISIS) manual says 50p.s.i. max. (sticker above the door says 40p.s.i.).
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Buckeye
Active Member

USA
27 Posts

Posted - 12/19/2006 :  3:26:07 PM  Show Profile  Visit Buckeye's Homepage  Reply with Quote
We had a door on an IC bus come open and a girl fell through the door onto the ground. She recieved minor injuries, but it could as easily have been fatal.The bus was moving at the time and turning left as she approached the unloading zone at our high school. Yes, the girl was standing next to the driver while the bus was in motion. The driver was fired this week.
When we re-enacted this at the same place and conditions, the duputy pushed the front half of the door with two fingers it opened easily the after opening, the air closed it immediately as it did in the original instance. On board the bus was our supervisor, superintendent, and the ass't. superintendent. Plenty of credible witnesses.
We tried to open air doors on our other buses and our three ICs were the only ones that would open. The Thomas and Blue Bird buses have a much heavier cylinder set-up.
When we called our dealer, he said that if pressure was applied to the front half of the door it would open but not if applied to the back half. This made all of us feel so much better!!!!
Also, he told us not to apply any more than 40 psi to the regulator or it would blow the end out of the cylinder.
Ohio minimum construction standards state that the entrance door shall not be able to be opened accidentally. The Ohio Highway Patrol has the ball now, and we're waiting to get a dicision on this.
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Wolf0r
Top Member

USA
2179 Posts

Posted - 12/20/2006 :  07:38:21 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
These are outward opening right? Is it possible to adjust the rod connecting the two doors? This would give you more overcenter tension right? I dunno how these are set up.

“The good thing about science is that it's true whether or not you believe in it.”
Neil deGrasse Tyson
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bbird66
Top Member

USA
881 Posts

Posted - 12/20/2006 :  08:53:00 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
From what your describing Buckeye sounds like they operate independant of each other? I would think the rod Wolfy says would keep that from happening. That is a BIG time problem there! Glad I dont have any air....anything.

Were gonna miss you "Brent"..Good luck in "Heidi land"

"I know you miss the Wainwrights Bobby, but they were weak and stupid people...and that's why we have wolves and other large predators" .. The Far Side

"On a two hour delay when will my child be picked up??"








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rswboe
Top Member

USA
675 Posts

Posted - 12/21/2006 :  10:28:59 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
If these are air operated there was an updated door cylinder and control valve. We had cold weather problems that are similar to that you describe. Call your dealer and see if they have the newer cylinder assembly.

Live each like it's going to be your last, one day you'll be right!
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Gini
Top Member

USA
1243 Posts

Posted - 12/21/2006 :  5:32:29 PM  Show Profile  Send Gini an AOL message  Reply with Quote
the mechanics fixed the doors on my Genesis, & my IC FE started out fine, but you have kids pulling on the doors while entering & exiting the bus, or sometimes other drivers leaning on one side while talking to the driver inside, & it pulls the doors outward just enough to cause the doors to have a problem. @ least they fixed the Genesis doors so they quit breaking open while going down the highway!

1Peter 1:3
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bluebirdvision
Top Member

USA
998 Posts

Posted - 12/22/2006 :  11:06:24 AM  Show Profile  Click to see bluebirdvision's MSN Messenger address  Reply with Quote
I noticed it when on a trip in a 2003 IC CE, T-444-E. I will ask the driver when i see her to see if she still has the problem. It did kinda make me nervous (because i'm a Busnut). I should ask the T/D about it, he knows just about everything you need to know about buses...

Shane Kirley
New York Bus Sales Delivery Driver. (I know its not much, but its a start)


Facebook Page: Blue Bird Corporation Fans
https://www.facebook.com/home.php?sk=group_212311114614&ap=1


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second.flood
Advanced Member

USA
366 Posts

Posted - 12/22/2006 :  7:33:25 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
There is a connecting rod. It is a balancing act between too much over-center adjustment and not enough. Enough to keep the door closed at highway speeds causes the door to not open smoothly.

quote:
Originally posted by Wolf0r

These are outward opening right? Is it possible to adjust the rod connecting the two doors? This would give you more overcenter tension right? I dunno how these are set up.

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IC-CEiswhereiwannabe
Advanced Member

USA
214 Posts

Posted - 12/27/2006 :  7:07:10 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Every bus I have driven with airdoors have this problem. Easiest solution requires no more than 2 screws and a bungee cord.

Why can't U C what I C in IC?
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second.flood
Advanced Member

USA
366 Posts

Posted - 01/02/2007 :  04:43:21 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by IC-CEiswhereiwannabe

Every bus I have driven with airdoors have this problem. Easiest solution requires no more than 2 screws and a bungee cord.



We have had air doors for 10+ years, BB ,Thomas, Carpenter, etc. Never had this problem before.
Your solution is interesting... I'm sure the Ohio State Patrol would love that solution.
Thanks to Midwest for the information and look forward to hearing what you discover.
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Kodie
Top Member

United States
1994 Posts

Posted - 01/06/2007 :  10:40:51 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Our IC bus doors don't blow open but when the bus is loading children after school on a windy day they get pushed closed and then bounce back.The other problem we have is the doors open very slow and when they do open the door bounces back and forth if you understand that but eventually stops. The only problem with that is it hits students boarding or letting off. Anybody have these problems? if so we need a solution
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CPCSC_TD
Top Member

USA
657 Posts

Posted - 01/07/2007 :  05:54:16 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
I never heard of that one. Sounds different from your description.
Contact member Midwest and e-mail him. He will get you connected to the right people to solve your problem.

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bobsbud22
Senior Member

USA
50 Posts

Posted - 01/07/2007 :  12:47:40 PM  Show Profile  Visit bobsbud22's Homepage  Reply with Quote
one way to solve the issue, is to get a manual door and get some exercise.

[URL=http://good-times.webshots.com/photo/2315049370099094322FQAWUC][/URL][URL=http://good-times.webshots.com/photo/2187906880099094322rtYumU][/URL]
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IBTMech
Top Member

USA
973 Posts

Posted - 01/07/2007 :  5:20:16 PM  Show Profile  Visit IBTMech's Homepage  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by bobsbud22

one way to solve the issue, is to get a manual door and get some exercise.



I wish we could go back to manual doors. If it weren't for all the crybabies with their back, shoulder and carpal tunnel problems I'm sure we would!

If it doesn't fit, FORCE it.
If it breaks, well, it needed replacing anyway.
Pullin' wrenches for 45 years.
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Bluebird62
Top Member

USA
530 Posts

Posted - 01/07/2007 :  5:49:22 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by IBTMech

quote:
Originally posted by bobsbud22

one way to solve the issue, is to get a manual door and get some exercise.



I wish we could go back to manual doors. If it weren't for all the crybabies with their back, shoulder and carpal tunnel problems I'm sure we would!



Very well said! It's amazing how many drivers start to develop "conditions" that require them to have an air seat or power door when a district first starts getting buses with these options.

Funny story about this: When we first started getting air doors at my previous district, the doc's notes started flooding in from all the drivers who just had to have one! An air door bus went down one day and the dispatcher didn't have anything but manual left so the driver refused to drive it. The dispatcher got mad (really had no choice) and told the driver to dispatch while she drove the route. The dispatcher went flying out of the building slipped on the steps and broke both of her ankles! Yikes and ouch! Even though she laughs about it now, to this day she still HATES air doors!
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Kodie
Top Member

United States
1994 Posts

Posted - 01/08/2007 :  8:45:45 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Our drivers hate manual doors. In our fleet of 67 buses only 8 of the buses have manual doors and those are all spare 1992-1997 International Blue Bird conventionals. When a bus brakes down for whatever reason the drivers take the spares and those doors squeak, rattle, and come off the track sometimes. I have heard a couple of the drivers swear when they try to open the door because they stick. It doesn't help that you have to reach over like two feet just to open the door.
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wgloff
Senior Member

USA
54 Posts

Posted - 01/09/2007 :  03:39:43 AM  Show Profile  Visit wgloff's Homepage  Reply with Quote
I never got any air doors, don't think I will. Problem with accessories on buses, someone always feels it should be on THEIR bus.
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IBTMech
Top Member

USA
973 Posts

Posted - 01/09/2007 :  5:38:49 PM  Show Profile  Visit IBTMech's Homepage  Reply with Quote
Talk about keeping secrets........

The last set of bus specs I reviewed had heated windshield wipers which I immediately gonged.

One bus with those and the entire fleet (buses, Public Works, Fire and Police) would be crying for them. I don't have time for that.......

In hindsight, maybe I should delete this post............

If it doesn't fit, FORCE it.
If it breaks, well, it needed replacing anyway.
Pullin' wrenches for 45 years.

Edited by - IBTMech on 01/09/2007 5:39:58 PM
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Sonnym
Active Member

USA
28 Posts

Posted - 01/10/2007 :  11:53:50 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
I would be interested in hearing what is going on with these doors.
Please send me an email with the VIN, mileage, make/model and a short narrative about your issue. Thanks

sonny.murianka@dot.gov
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deanm
New Member

United States
1 Posts

Posted - 01/17/2007 :  10:54:05 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
We have a new 46 passenger International activity bus and another on order. We also have had problems with the air operated doors opening while going down the road. They also let a lot of cold air in. While traveling through Nebraska, an International mechanic turned the air pressure "all the way up." The manual says not to exceed 45, but the mechanic said he turns them all up. The door has worked great since then. I'm waiting for the acutator to fail, but so far it works fine.

We are also having a major problem heating the bus (rear engine). The bus came with three heaters; 50K btu at rear of bus, 12K btu under driver seat, and 84K btu for dash and defrost. The heaters put out good heat, but the bus is still very cold. Many of our trips are un North and the students may be on the bus up to about 8 hours. Is there a standard for the amount of btu required for this type of bus used for activity versus typical school bus?
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wil
Active Member

USA
30 Posts

Posted - 01/18/2007 :  04:16:07 AM  Show Profile  Visit wil's Homepage  Reply with Quote
I have numerous buses with air and electric door and have not had any complaints from drivers however this does not mean it isn't happening. If you are having issues you need to talk to Sonnym. He cannot help with your complaints if you don't contact him.
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Thomasbus24
Administrator

USA
3345 Posts

Posted - 01/18/2007 :  4:51:19 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
I want to echo what wil has said.

Take a few minutes to drop sonnym a line...the NHTSA is interested in this problem...perhaps we could get a solution that doesn't involve a rubber strap!
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topsfan
New Member

4 Posts

Posted - 11/10/2012 :  3:47:08 PM  Show Profile  Visit topsfan's Homepage  Reply with Quote
I have an IC CE series which has now been on the road for almost one year. We have been fighting with the door since day one on the highway or even on route on roads where we can get speeds up to 50 mph, and it seems worse if there is a cross wind. I have had it back to the dealer and they readjusted the door. It didn't solve anything and in fact, blew open on the ride home. Since then, the pressure has been adjusted at least 3x and is not set to 60 psi. They went to the IC experts who had them put a control valve safety kit on it, still blows open. You cannot push the doors open from the inside when the bus is sitting still so it seems like a strong hold. Today I had a 300 mi round trip in the bus and on the way there- no problem, but on the way home the kids opened about 5 windows and there went the doors. Put the windows up and it stayed shut. Makes me think there is a pressure on the inside vs. outside issue of some sort. The cover to the compartment which holds the door mechanism sags and my dealer is sending me a strip to remedy that. I did notice that the rubber seal on the door was sliding up and down and left a gap at the top. I was thinking air was blowing in there and getting trapped and was pushing the doors open. Friday, I bought a tube of quick drying epoxy and aligned it at the very top and it did seem to make a difference (before Friday the door would come open with windows open or closed), now the door only seems to pull open if the windows are down. Decal inside the door mechanism chamber says drain water from air system regularly... haven't done that yet and wondering if you all do that as it seems a bit odd to place a label of importance inside a compartment no one looks at unless they are having troubles.
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browning_josh
Active Member

10 Posts

Posted - 11/21/2012 :  06:57:50 AM  Show Profile  Visit browning_josh's Homepage  Reply with Quote
we have 3 new RE models and they all blow open about 3" at highway speeds we were also concerned that someone could possibly enter the bus when it is locked up.

I recently toured the IC factory and at the end of the tour we were able to sit down with the engineers and ask questions. I asked this question the reasoning that they gave me was that they had changed the hinge pins and had to make the doors lighter and in the linkage of the door there is a small amount of play in each end when all that amount of play adds up it allows the door to blow open a small amount.

I was told early next year they will have an update that gives all the linkages tighter tolerances which will solve the problem
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Thomasbus24
Administrator

USA
3345 Posts

Posted - 11/21/2012 :  09:06:09 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
That's all good and well for new buses, are they going to fix everyone else's? For the life of me I still don't understand why nobody will talk to NHTSA about this, it is an obvious, glaring safety defect that should be recalled. I'd talk to em myself, but I dont own any ICs.
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JRob
Senior Member

182 Posts

Posted - 11/21/2012 :  09:46:35 AM  Show Profile  Visit JRob's Homepage  Reply with Quote
quote:
I still don't understand why nobody will talk to NHTSA about this, it is an obvious, glaring safety defect that should be recalled


The answer might be because there is no specific FMVSS requirement that applies to this issue. School bus entrance doors are in a gray area. They have to close and stay closed yet they can't latch like a car door and must open easily and often. That's a pretty fine line. It's tough to do, frankly.
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bwest
Administrator

United States
2324 Posts

Posted - 11/21/2012 :  11:11:54 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by JRob

quote:
I still don't understand why nobody will talk to NHTSA about this, it is an obvious, glaring safety defect that should be recalled


The answer might be because there is no specific FMVSS requirement that applies to this issue. School bus entrance doors are in a gray area. They have to close and stay closed yet they can't latch like a car door and must open easily and often. That's a pretty fine line. It's tough to do, frankly.


Not hard with a manual door though. We are going back to manual. I have not been happy with my electric door on our IC buses. I have had no issues, really, but I'm just not impressed with the "feel" of these things.

Bryan
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