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OperationsM
Top Member
USA
515 Posts |
 Posted - 07/21/2006 : 7:54:39 PM
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I have had this on my mind for a long time. Does anybody know how safe school buses are in real crashes? I saw a video of the C2 getting smashed at about 25 mph and it fell apart. I know that school buses are intended for slower speeds but they occasionally go faster.
I think I became pale when I saw that....I know that since school buses are bigger and higher, the car will probably go underneath the bus in an accident. But still, I think they should be better and have more beams. If you don't want to watch the whole movie, the crash test part is near the fast forward arrows; about at the first quarter of the movie...
http://www.matthewsbuses.com/matthewsvideo.asp
Could beams be added? |
Edited by - OperationsM on 07/28/2006 6:07:32 PM
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Cody
Top Member
United States
1630 Posts |
Posted - 07/21/2006 : 8:18:26 PM
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| I think all buses are like this. I've seen a video of a crash test done with an Blue Bird All American RE, done with a semi crashing into the side at I think 30 mph, the bus seemed to just fall apart. It may look bad.. but I'm sure the occupants inside will be fine, for the most part. |
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OperationsM
Top Member
USA
515 Posts |
Posted - 07/21/2006 : 8:34:10 PM
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| hmm.....I understand what you mean, but they should be better. School buses seem to be a bit too focused on just getting to point A to point B and made with very simple repairs. That's one thing I don't like about school buses - they seem to be made the cheapest for easy quick repairs. I'm not saying they are bad, but I think you know what I mean. |
Hotel's Ford Girardin |
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Allamericanre
Advanced Member
USA
238 Posts |
Posted - 07/21/2006 : 10:55:28 PM
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| I noticed that the C2 went in the air a couple times on the rugged part of the course. One of our C2s did that and had to get a new susp. |
http://www.flickr.com/groups/schoolbus/
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Gini
Top Member
USA
1249 Posts |
Posted - 07/21/2006 : 11:03:25 PM
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| we had a SpEd transit bus hit head-on (driver's corner-to-driver's corner) by a Merto bus this past fall, & they had to cut the driver out & air-lift her to hospital. but she was back to driving before the end of the yr. |
1Peter 1:3 |
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Steven A.Rosenow
Top Member
USA
1926 Posts |
Posted - 07/21/2006 : 11:42:01 PM
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| A Gillig or Crown getting hit like some of the newer stuff wouldn't even come close to falling apart... |
http://www.gilligcoaches.net |
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Rich
Top Member
United States
5768 Posts |
Posted - 07/22/2006 : 01:02:37 AM
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Buses aren't made cheap to just fall apart. They have to comply with extremely demanding FMVSS requirements for passenger and driver protection, and every school bus meets the same requirements, although some, like the C2 exceed it. The C2 has more joint strength than any other bus on the market due to the structual adhesive used in conjunction with self-piercing rivets.
Also, that C2 did quite well in the head-on collision. If it didn't, it sure as heck wouldn't have made it in to a Thomas promotional video, that's for sure.
Buses always look a lot worse than they are in many crashes, I wouldn't worry about that video too much. |
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JK
Top Member
USA
7307 Posts |
Posted - 07/22/2006 : 02:44:58 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by Cody
I think all buses are like this. I've seen a video of a crash test done with an Blue Bird All American RE, done with a semi crashing into the side at I think 30 mph, the bus seemed to just fall apart. It may look bad.. but I'm sure the occupants inside will be fine, for the most part.
Some are fine - those not ejected, slammed into an opposing object or sitting near the impact area. A side impact is the most dangerous - few experts seem to mention that compartmentalization is ineffective in side impact crashes. The majority of deaths during a crash happen in side impact and any crash that results in part or full ejection from the bus. The original engineers of the current compartmentalization concept were very concerned about that flaw in the compartmentalization feature and recommended seat belts to correct that flaw. Another little mentioned fact is that death to others in cars struck by a school bus far exceeds death inside the bus. A car t-boned by a school bus, or rammed kills over 1,000 passengers of other vehicles each year I believe. And a pedestrian v/s a school bus? Buses are designed to separate the body from the frame in the worst crashes - a crash involving a bus and a train for example. Seems to work adequately to save some lives. (jk)
FREE School Bus Safety Ads & Photo Library
Hostage Takeover, bus fire and special effects photos now available Free to use at websites, in newsletters, memos, the local press, letters to parents and more. This is a very popular Website. If you can't get in bookmark the page and try again later.
There is no school bus driver shortage!
Properly train, effective support and pay that retains. |
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Thomas Ford 85-16
Top Member
USA
4177 Posts |
Posted - 07/22/2006 : 08:20:15 AM
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That C2 performed very well in the crash. Every bus that I've seen in those tests that hits the wall has the chassis separate from the body, the chassis staying behind, and the body moving forward. By allowing that to happen, the occupants will experience MUCH less violent forces because they have that much more time to decelerate. The breaking of the body mounts also helps to use up some of the impact energy. I've only seen videos of Thomas and Blue Birds being tested... The side impact for the Thomas was a much better result than the Blue Bird, but the Blue Bird was an older design at the time; I don't remember if a Blue Bird was ever tested head on. AmTran/International/IC hasn't yet revealed any crash test videos.
Also notice the C2 windshield. It cracked a lot, but it stayed in place. Normal roped in glass is likely to have flown out, so think of all the passengers that were saved in keeping them inside the vehicle. They've also said that the passenger windows were designed to reduce the liklihood of ejections (which JK said is the most dangerous part of a crash) but I'm not sure exactly what that incldued. |
Mike's Bus Yard - http://buses.zwebpages.com - Since 1999
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Edited by - Thomas Ford 85-16 on 07/22/2006 08:25:45 AM |
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OperationsM
Top Member
USA
515 Posts |
Posted - 07/22/2006 : 08:37:08 AM
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Does anyone think school buses, and coaches should have a driver's front, and a side airbag? I mean, why not have them? Yes, school buses are supposed to go slower speed's, and shouldn't have to use an airbag -- but you never know what can happen. Wouldn't it be a piece of mind and safer if it had front, and side airbags for the driver?
I think side curtain air-bags for all rows of the bus should also be available. Just like cars. It would be safer for the children. |
Hotel's Ford Girardin |
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Thomas Ford 85-16
Top Member
USA
4177 Posts |
Posted - 07/22/2006 : 09:24:55 AM
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| I'd have to agree with you, at the very least with the drivers air bag. In the previous decade, air bags would've been dangerous in school buses since the technology and design was not yet there to make them work properly. Now though, I think driver's air bags should be used since the steering wheels and cockpit are being designed more and more like that of a car, where the geometry is more airbag friendly. A lot of air bag deployment relies on the positioning of the windsheild and dashboard in a car, and now that those things are becoming more advanced in school buses (along with electronics and other controls) I think it's time to embrace them. Roll over air bags for the passengers would be a neat feature, and would probably help prevent a lot of ejections. However that would have to be very long, complicated system. It would be expensive, but like anything, is doable! |
Mike's Bus Yard - http://buses.zwebpages.com - Since 1999
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OperationsM
Top Member
USA
515 Posts |
Posted - 07/22/2006 : 09:39:14 AM
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Yes, I agree with you. I wonder how the coaches do on a crash? YIKES. But then I think, will someone cut off a bus? Sometimes I worry when driving my bus about how safe it really is.
It is about time to start adding airbags. It really is plain STUPID how buses don't even have a front airbag.
There are picture's of it here:
www.carspace.com/master1 |
Hotel's Ford Girardin |
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JK
Top Member
USA
7307 Posts |
Posted - 07/22/2006 : 09:55:08 AM
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I would have to look it up to be sure, but I believe catastrophic injuries and death often occur in roll overs when the school bus is traveling at less than twenty mph during final impact. An airbag would probably be unstable, simply because a bump in the road could set them off at low speeds. A frontal crash at higher speeds is violent enough that an airbag in the steering wheel might help protect the bus driver in such crashes, and would remain stable during normal operation. Seat restraints would seem the best protection for passengers in all school bus crashes.
Ever wonder why seat restraints don't show up in the news after severe school bus crashes as producing the extent of injuries some experts promote would happen with these devices? In violent frontal crashes, ''the chassis [separating] from the body,'' as Thomas Ford 85-16 mentioned, dramatically reduces submarining making seat restraints very effective and without producing the alleged severe head, neck and back injuries some industry experts promote. Restraints are most excellent in roll-overs, covering the flaw in the current concept, not the original compartmentalization concept which recommended restraints. (jk)
FREE School Bus Safety Ads & Photo Library
Hostage Takeover, bus fire and special effects photos now available Free to use at websites, in newsletters, memos, the local press, letters to parents and more. This is a very popular Website. If you can't get in bookmark the page and try again later.
There is no school bus driver shortage!
Properly train, effective support and pay that retains.
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Edited by - JK on 07/22/2006 10:17:05 AM |
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JC Theriault
Top Member
Canada
1326 Posts |
Posted - 07/22/2006 : 10:01:43 AM
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I don't feel there is a need for driver airbags. In the event of a collision a driver is either injured or not but you see more and more people getting hurt by airbags going off, either due to collision or a malfuncion, and these people are in no shape to then assist those around them.
Last thing I'd want is to lose control of a bus due to a malfunction which sets off the airbag. With the newer 3-point driver seatbelts and proper seat setup there is plenty of protection for the driver IMO.
JC |
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OperationsM
Top Member
USA
515 Posts |
Posted - 07/22/2006 : 10:02:10 AM
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| I'm a little unclear about this...Is the chasis seperating from the body better or worse? |
Hotel's Ford Girardin |
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JK
Top Member
USA
7307 Posts |
Posted - 07/22/2006 : 10:16:05 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by OperationsM
I'm a little unclear about this...Is the chasis seperating from the body better or worse?
Everything mentioned in the posts indicates separation during violent crashes is better. Where is the confusion concerning that concept? (jk)
FREE School Bus Safety Ads & Photo Library
Hostage Takeover, bus fire and special effects photos now available Free to use at websites, in newsletters, memos, the local press, letters to parents and more. This is a very popular Website. If you can't get in bookmark the page and try again later.
There is no school bus driver shortage!
Properly train, effective support and pay that retains. |
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OperationsM
Top Member
USA
515 Posts |
Posted - 07/22/2006 : 1:44:58 PM
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| But why is the body moving forward safer? Isn't that worse? Tests conducted by the IIHS show that bodies following off the car is not safe. How would the body falling of the bus make it safer? |
Hotel's Ford Girardin |
Edited by - OperationsM on 07/22/2006 1:46:01 PM |
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bus724
Top Member
USA
1609 Posts |
Posted - 07/22/2006 : 2:52:27 PM
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The construction of a car versus a bus is completely different, so the point about bodies falling off cars is irrelevant. On a school bus, the heavy-duty body is designed to separate from the chassis in severe impacts, but the body itself will maintain its shape and integrity. In the example of a severe frontal impact on a conventional, the entire body (including the frame, roof, walls, windows, floors, and seats) would slide forward as one unit, thereby absorbing a large amount of the impact energy.
If you study seat belt design, you would know that the webbing material used is designed to stretch under the forces felt in an impact, thereby providing a sort of cushioning by decreasing the rate of deceleration. Having the body separate from the chassis on a school bus does the same...while the chassis stops abruptly, the body, and therefore occupants, are cushioned from the full force. |
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Thomas Ford 85-16
Top Member
USA
4177 Posts |
Posted - 07/22/2006 : 4:42:46 PM
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| Remember, Force = Mass x Acceleration. The larger the acceleration (defined as a CHANGE in velocity) the larger the force you're going to experience. Acceleration = Change in Velocity / Time, and since obviously a longer distance to travel takes more time, the greater time will result in a smaller acceleration and a smaller force exerted upon the bus BODY. That extra distance the body travels is VERY important. |
Mike's Bus Yard - http://buses.zwebpages.com - Since 1999
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JC Theriault
Top Member
Canada
1326 Posts |
Posted - 07/22/2006 : 5:34:55 PM
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Hmmmm, this discussion raises an interesting question about driver safety with or without an airbag. If the body continues to travel forward after a collision where will the steering wheel end up, especially on a conventional where it is not attached to the body unlike a cabover where the column passes through the floor and might fracture to then follow the body as a piece of it.
On a conventional it would seem that the motion of the body would send the driver chest or head first into the steering wheel and causing serious injury. I don't believe that an airbag would reduce the risk of injury in a case where the body comes off the chassis.
JC |
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OperationsM
Top Member
USA
515 Posts |
Posted - 07/22/2006 : 6:40:43 PM
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Well, I don't think the body should be moving without the chasis. It still seems wrong. The impact wont kill the person if it doesn't move forward. If it's moving forward, it's just getting close to the impact. The body should always be on the chasis.
Sorry, but I have to strongly dis-agree about the body moving. I think it is terrible and is not safer. On a coach, I highly doubt the body moves. It kind of goes with the saying, the more you pay, the more you get.
A ford shuttle bus costs about $50,000, while a school bus costs about $75,000. hmm....only $25,000 extra for all that weight, and size??? I still think the body movement "feature" just happens because school buses are made more cheaply for easy chassis replacements, engine replacements, etc...
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Hotel's Ford Girardin |
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JC Theriault
Top Member
Canada
1326 Posts |
Posted - 07/22/2006 : 7:12:42 PM
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The "shuttle" type buses you talk about are often made by companies who have experience in the motorhome industry and you'll find mose of the them (champion, terra transit/turtle top, glavabus, goshen and startrans are good examples) are made of fiberglass covered insulation panels with some strength added to comply with vehicle safety standards. A school bus is built to completly different regulations such as body pierce strength other safety related stuff.
As for the motorcoach coming off its chassis well I also doubt it for the simple reason that all major motorcoach manufacturers build the chassis and body to be one complete unit unlike most school bus, cutaway and semi-coach manufacturers who drop the body onto a chassis brought in from another supplier.
You are comparing apples and oranges at this point.
JC |
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OperationsM
Top Member
USA
515 Posts |
Posted - 07/22/2006 : 8:13:46 PM
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Ok...but the main thing I feel is that the chassis should not seperate from the body and that school buses should start having more beams, and air-bags.
Since you know about the Ford shuttle buses, I have a question for you, or anyone else who can answer. To purchase a Ford shuttle bus, do I go to a Commercial Ford Truck dealer, or a Goshen dealer? Because Ford only supplies the engine and chassis, right? So what would happen if I just went to Ford? Would I get a cabin and nothing behind? |
Hotel's Ford Girardin |
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JC Theriault
Top Member
Canada
1326 Posts |
Posted - 07/22/2006 : 8:19:16 PM
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Some Ford Truck dealerships will sell you a complete unit but you are better off going to a bus dealer to buy the bus. I found the quotes I got from Ford (or GM) truck dealerships were around 20% higher than buying direct, probably due to the fact the dealership pays more for the vehicle vs. an authorized bus dealer/representative and may have more overhead to cover on each sale.
JC |
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OperationsM
Top Member
USA
515 Posts |
Posted - 07/22/2006 : 8:22:20 PM
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| Wow, thanks for the quick response! lol So if I go to a Ford dealer, whoose body would it be to make it a shuttle bus? Would Ford order it for you? Thanks for helping. : ) |
Hotel's Ford Girardin |
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Thomasbus24
Administrator
USA
4546 Posts |
Posted - 07/23/2006 : 05:58:03 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by JC Theriault
If the body continues to travel forward after a collision where will the steering wheel end up, especially on a conventional where it is not attached to the body unlike a cabover where the column passes through the floor and might fracture to then follow the body as a piece of it.
That was a point I was always curious about...found some answers on that subject, but not for any modern bus.
Remember the 1985 Transport Canada test with the 80's IHC/Blue Bird? The steering column was forced into a nearly vertical position and the driver would have eaten it. Not fun. Now of course the S-series is becoming farther and fewer, never have seen a 3800 or IC tested in this manner.
Remember when the Transportation Research Company of East Libert Ohio crashed the 1997 Freightliner/Thomas in the same way? WOW. The body continued forward on impact, broke off a few mounting clips though it remained on the chassis.
In this situation, the entire cowl assembly also continued forward. The engine tore through the firewall and warped the heck out of the floor. Besides this interior distortion, the driver compartment stayed intact and was extremely survivable. Of course there is no more FS65, but MANY of them out there.
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Edited by - Thomasbus24 on 07/23/2006 05:59:07 AM |
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OperationsM
Top Member
USA
515 Posts |
Posted - 07/23/2006 : 08:34:46 AM
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The engine is not supposed to move into, or push into the safety cage. That is not safe. The safety cage is where the driver sits, and minimal tire, and dashboard intrusion is only acceptable at about 35mph - 40mph on conventionals. Why do I say conventionals? You can't expect a flat front to do great on these front tests! lol
Let's face it, school buses do not have enough absorption. The body moving forward just causes the body to be damaged more quickly. I highly doubt that the body movement "feature" is intentionally done by Thomas/IC/Blue-Bird for safety reasons. I personally think it is too make it cheaper to build and less expensive. |
Hotel's Ford Girardin |
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80-RE4
Top Member
USA
5700 Posts |
Posted - 07/23/2006 : 08:46:21 AM
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This subject is really sending chills down my spine for many reasons. First I did not watch the video posted by OperationsM because I don't want to see any school bus crash and its impact. I don't like to think about school bus crashes and pray to God all school buses stay safe and drivers use caution.
Some things I don't understand: JK: Do you recommend seatbelts in school buses. I thought compartmentalization was safe for every type of crash (except when a bus tips over) like we saw in that video when the bus flipped.
What are you all talking about- The body coming off the chassis and the engine coming off the chassis? That's crazy. What would happen? The seats and the driver would go flying and the wheels would go somewhere else and the engine somewhere else? If it's too complicated to explain, please don't. I'd just like to think that my bus would never be involved in an accident.
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OperationsM
Top Member
USA
515 Posts |
Posted - 07/23/2006 : 09:11:02 AM
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Yes 80Amtran, I strongly think that the chasis has to stay with the body. In cars the chassis doesn't fall off because they test cars. In one ford, the chassis didn't stay with the body and recieved a "poor" rating. I know cars are different than buses, but the body is not moving forward for safety. It's just because it's not attached as strong as possible and is cheaper.
(My opinion)
Well, that C2 crumpled up in a straight frontal collision. It wasn't even a corner frontal collision and it fell apart...it concerns me |
Hotel's Ford Girardin |
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bus724
Top Member
USA
1609 Posts |
Posted - 07/23/2006 : 10:00:08 AM
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Again, when the body separates from the chassis on a school bus, it's designed to do so with the entire body staying intact. The floor, walls, ceiling, windows, and seats stay together as one unit. If you don't believe me, then look at the pictures from the train-bus crash in Fox River Grove in 1995 (If I can find a link I'll post it). The body completely separated (and landed about a hundred feet away) from the chassis. The body was mostly intact, and half the students (and the driver) survived the crash.
On the Freightliner, I believe Thomasbus24 was explaining that, while the floor of the driver's compartment was warped, it was otherwise survivable because the body slid forward and went OVER the engine. Remember that on a FS-65, the driver sits on a raised platform, higher than the engine.
Keep in mind that the priority in designing a school bus is to protect the passengers. As horrible as it sounds, it's a risk we take, possibly sacrificing ourselves to protect the children. With that said however, major injuries and fatalities are very rare in a school bus, and I feel much safer driving a school bus than just about any other vehicle. |
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Thomas Ford 85-16
Top Member
USA
4177 Posts |
Posted - 07/23/2006 : 10:06:09 AM
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| You are picking and choosing what to read! It can be proven through physics that having the body move is SAFER! The key crashes is reducing the forces tht everyoen experiences. You speak about keeping people away from the point of impact...it is much safer to reduce the forces experienced by everyone, increasing the time it takes to decelerate, and haev a soft impact with the wall, than to have the entire bus, and everyoen inside, stop too suddenly. And ThomasBus24 clearly satted that while the engine did protrude into the bus, the drivers area was relatively intact. |
Mike's Bus Yard - http://buses.zwebpages.com - Since 1999
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Thomas Ford 85-16
Top Member
USA
4177 Posts |
Posted - 07/23/2006 : 10:11:34 AM
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| Think about it this way, ALLLLLL cars these days have crumple zones, to absorb the extra energy. In a head on collision, the front of cars are nearly impossible to identify. Just think of this chassis movement as the crumple zone - it's exactly the same purpose! |
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OperationsM
Top Member
USA
515 Posts |
Posted - 07/23/2006 : 10:14:18 AM
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| I'm not saying that the seats, and walls don't stay together. I understand that. But my main point instead of the bus moving forward and going on top of the engine, the bus should have more beams, a more rigid cage INSTEAD of that moving forward nonsense. |
Hotel's Ford Girardin |
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Thomas Ford 85-16
Top Member
USA
4177 Posts |
Posted - 07/23/2006 : 10:47:36 AM
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| Crumple zones in a car allow the car to move forward, increasing the time it takes to decelerate, just like the bus body on the chassis. I'm not so sure it's nonesense. If a bus were absolutely indestructable and were to hit something, the passengers inside the bus would absorb all of that force. That's why cars went from being built very beastly, to being manufactured with crumple zones with areas that are designed to collapse. It increases the forward movement of the car, reducing the forces experienced during deceleration. |
Mike's Bus Yard - http://buses.zwebpages.com - Since 1999
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Thomasbus24
Administrator
USA
4546 Posts |
Posted - 07/23/2006 : 12:24:42 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by bus724
Again, when the body separates from the chassis on a school bus, it's designed to do so with the entire body staying intact. The floor, walls, ceiling, windows, and seats stay together as one unit. If you don't believe me, then look at the pictures from the train-bus crash in Fox River Grove in 1995 (If I can find a link I'll post it). The body completely separated (and landed about a hundred feet away) from the chassis. The body was mostly intact, and half the students (and the driver) survived the crash.
In my opinion the Fox River Grove crash shows a perfect seperation. But for the sake of arguement, I'm also going to point out a very severe collision with very unfavorable seperation; Murray County GA Bus vs Train. Blue Bird attached the driver's platform using grade 8 bolts, which are stronger than the grade 5's used elsewhere. Had the seatbelt not failed, likely the driver would have been killed.
Good but boring reading. Excellant photos of my point.
http://www.ntsb.gov/publictn/2001/HAR0103.pdf Caution: Graphic |
Edited by - Thomasbus24 on 07/23/2006 12:25:18 PM |
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80-RE4
Top Member
USA
5700 Posts |
Posted - 07/24/2006 : 04:29:06 AM
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| Thanks you're right I was picking and chosing what to read. I try not to think about this stuff even though it's reality. |
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School Bus Crash Safety
