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OperationsM
Top Member
USA
515 Posts |
 Posted - 07/24/2006 : 6:19:07 PM
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Has anybody noticed that when quotes are not used in discussions the members tend to get along better?
I noticed this in edmunds car forum too....
Anyway, Great responses to this subject! It was interesting.
THOMASBUS24, that article had good pictures. That bus actually abosrbed the impact fairly well. Considering the mass of a train 50mph! |
Hotel's Ford Girardin |
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JK
Top Member
USA
7307 Posts |
Posted - 07/24/2006 : 8:02:51 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by OperationsM
Has anybody noticed that when quotes are not used in discussions the members tend to get along better?
I noticed this in edmunds car forum too....
Haven't noticed that. Have noticed that relevant details included in the original post can make for more accurate responses and less guessing. (jk)
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Properly train, effective support and pay that retains. |
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OperationsM
Top Member
USA
515 Posts |
Posted - 07/30/2006 : 11:02:00 AM
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Look at this. This Freightliner/Blue-Bird really fell apart poorly for a FRONT - FRONT collision. It wasn't even a Front side collision.
http://www.schoolbuscentral.com/gallery/manufacturers/bluebird/freightliner/2_la90s_nh.htm
Come on! By a Ford TAURUS!! It fell apart like that!  That really is terrible. I don't care about the moving forward feature with this case. The bus has to ABSORB something!
They need to add more BEAMS. |
Hotel's Ford Girardin |
Edited by - OperationsM on 07/30/2006 11:03:08 AM |
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CPCSC_TD
Top Member
USA
657 Posts |
Posted - 07/30/2006 : 12:29:07 PM
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Good point to bring up with that picture.
What is even better and thank you Richard for putting the quote from the police office. I question his background and education in engineering.
Since none of us witnessed or can recreate that exact accident- and I mean to the nearest hundredth of an inch replicating every detail, I think the bus did fine.
None of us know if the car slid on the passenger side of the bus thus hitting the stairwell.
OperationsM, if you are prepared to to go in front of a school board and ask for additional money because the cost of the school bus went up due to additional components, then go for it.
Buses have prooven themself through science and studies. Fact is fact.
You cannot compare a school bus to a car since they are designed for different applications and purposes.
As far as shuttle buses- look at some accident records. They perform far worse than school buses. Especially that famour fiberglass buckling apart and cracking. I would certainly be emabarassed to own one. Notice how many small enterpises are buying school bus bodies and painting them white? You see tons of Thomas's and Bluebirds everywhere like this.
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OperationsM
Top Member
USA
515 Posts |
Posted - 07/30/2006 : 12:42:11 PM
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| I'm sorry, but I have to dis-agree. I feel that the impact shouldn't have gone so far. I'm not going to a school bus board, let's not go crazy here - I'm just discussing. |
Hotel's Ford Girardin |
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OperationsM
Top Member
USA
515 Posts |
Posted - 07/30/2006 : 12:52:26 PM
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An accident with a Ford Shuttle Bus. The driver surprisingly survived. It says if it was a school bus, people may not have died.
http://www.ntsb.gov/Publictn/2002/HAB0201.pdf
When you really look at it, I feel safe saying the bus did good for rolling over. It was also going fast - the cruise control was 70. |
Hotel's Ford Girardin |
Edited by - OperationsM on 07/30/2006 1:01:51 PM |
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Thomas Ford 85-16
Top Member
USA
4177 Posts |
Posted - 07/30/2006 : 6:45:08 PM
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That shuttle bus did horribly - a school bus would have held up much better than that. If you notice in most crashes, the catastrophic damage occurs at the front. These areas are designed to crumple and absorb energy. You don't seem to grasp this concept! If the bus cowl does not absorb this energy, the passengers WILL! That is why passenger cars crumple in collisions today whereas cars from the past would've been dented and mangled a bit, but the passengers in much worse shape. When will you acknowledge this?
Looking at the Freightliner particularly, I'm not upset with how it held up, even though it was a loss of a good bus... Your precious chassis actaully stayed put there, indicating that the crash wasn't that bad. A front axle only has so much holding it on... The leaf springs, the hanger and U-bolts and such, and it doesn't take much to shear them. The collision from a car, head-on or otherwise, is low enough to center their force on those components to remove an axle. The rear side of the bus cowl would be easily crumpled by the car, if the bus rode over it, or even from the axle itself, or even more likely, the force of the bus slamming on the ground after the chassis is left. Most damage there is centered on the stairwell...this isn't an essential component to passenger safety and can only be built to be so strong. In fact, I don't see any damage to the passenger compartment there. Who cares if the engine is wrecked...the passengers are safe! |
Mike's Bus Yard - http://buses.zwebpages.com - Since 1999
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Thomas Ford 85-16
Top Member
USA
4177 Posts |
Posted - 07/30/2006 : 6:48:40 PM
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| Another thing - while I'm not against adding more "beams" to school buses, they already have many more roof bows than any other vehicle. A school bus has a roof bow between each passenger window... Look at a motorcoach or shuttle bus, and realize just how many fewer roof bows those buses have considering they can only be fit between windows. |
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OperationsM
Top Member
USA
515 Posts |
Posted - 07/30/2006 : 7:00:35 PM
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That shuttle bus FLIPPED and went into other things at who knows what speed since the cruise control was at 70mph. Say the accident was 60mph. If the passengers had three point seatbelts, they would not have been thrown out of the bus.
Could it have done better? YES. Should it be better - yes. But remember, this was a flip, and plunged at high speeds.
If you really look at the picture, the driver's space is still ok, and even though the sides of the bus are damaged from the high speed flip(s), there is enough survical space.
In responce to the previous Thomas Blue-Bird - What I think is that it should be better. That's my main point. I feel that a BUS shouldn't fall apart all the way to the stair-well from a FRONTAL collision with a low car [Ford Taraus]. The car is MUCH lower, how the heck did it ruin the bus so much, especiallly in a front - front collision. I don't think that accident was at fast speeds either.
I over-reacted a bit with that issue, but I still think it should've done better.
The Ford bus was at much higher speeds and flipped (I think 2 times) and plunged. |
Hotel's Ford Girardin |
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CPCSC_TD
Top Member
USA
657 Posts |
Posted - 07/31/2006 : 04:49:03 AM
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OperationsM
Time to get real and accept the fact school buses are very safe. You are entitled to your opinion but many continue to proove you wrong and in disagreement.
Just out of curiosity- where woul d you place these extra bows? Considering you don't want to interupt the placement of emergency exit windows. These are required per federal standard. I am just curious with the purpose of windows, compartmentalization and such, where you would find palces to put these extra bows. With this, I assume you have studied the Thomas Saf-T-Liner Rear engine that plunged down a ravine rollowing.
http://www.ntsb.gov/publictn/2002/HAB0204.pdf
http://www.ntsb.gov/publictn/2002/HAB0205.pdf
http://www.ntsb.gov/publictn/2004/HAR0401.pdf
Again, as far as your motorcoach comparison- built with less testing and not as stringent reqwuirements.
http://www.ntsb.gov/publictn/2003/HAR0301.pdft
thank gosh this was a not a school bus hitting a pole at a school or street sign- as we know this never happens.
I can agree with one point you make- there could be more that buses could be doing. Are we doing anything bad or wrong? Absolutely not.
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MorrisV
Advanced Member
Canada
231 Posts |
Posted - 07/31/2006 : 06:46:14 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by CPCSC_TD
OperationsM
Time to get real and accept the fact school buses are very safe. You are entitled to your opinion but many continue to proove you wrong and in disagreement. ....... I can agree with one point you make- there could be more that buses could be doing. Are we doing anything bad or wrong? Absolutely not.
Excellent response. I could not agree more. I would like to add if I may, that cost is a real issue here. I am sure there is a way that an air bag could be manufactured in every seat back with side curtain air bags as well as roof mounted air bags. Who would pay for it? Lets for example add a cost of roughly $1500.00 to every row in a school bus. I am sure that would be a fair estimate. That is roughly $18,000.00 per bus. With that you would require a restraint system designed to hold a child exactly in the right spot for a deployed airbag not to mention a system to determine weight so as not to deploy on a child with a body mass under a certain point. Lets put that cust at roughly $1000.00 per row. another $12,000.00 per bus. I would think this would also eliminate 1/3 of the passenger capacity. We would have to add a 1/3 more buses on the road with the added costs associated to that. I am not sure this is feasible or for that matter is it nessacary. The school bus passenger injury record in accidents is by far safer than other automotive alternatives without such controls.
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CPCSC_TD
Top Member
USA
657 Posts |
Posted - 07/31/2006 : 09:41:46 AM
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Morris brings up along with others some additional key elements.
Let's take for example the titlt/ telescoping wheel. Depending on how you have it adjusted, your height and seat position, how can a manufacturer guarentee that the air bag will deploy in the right position or in the correct area protecting the driver. |
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sbfreader
Senior Member
153 Posts |
Posted - 07/31/2006 : 5:56:14 PM
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Airbags on buses are would be very difficult to engineer. Vehicle load is very important for the correct deployment of an airbag. Buses and trucks have wide variations in their loaded weight so getting the airbag to deploy properly is a very tricky proposition.
School buses are tough because they are built like tanks. They don't really employ crumple zones or energy absorbing materials to any great extent (with seating being the exception). They do use basic, traditional steel frame construction and it is very effective in the application. |
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School Bus Crash Safety
