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JK
Top Member
USA
7307 Posts |
 Posted - 12/21/2003 : 09:04:10 AM
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Dec 21 2003
The Tri-City Herald, Kennewick, Pasco and Richland, Washington
On Feb. 17, 2001, two teenage members of a Chinese dance troupe touring the Northwest were killed when their van rolled on Highway 395 near Ritzville. Twenty-three others were injured when two vans in a convoy of three crashed on the icy highway.
On Monday, two Prosser sophomores died in a very similar crash, in nearly the same spot, on the same icy conditions.
Since 1990, there have been more than 440 deaths nationwide involving 15-passenger, high vans.
The vans are used frequently by church groups, van pools and to get the soccer team to the field.
But the National Transportation Safety Board, the National Highway Traffic Safety Administration and even the School Bus Information Council have warned schools more than once that the vans are not safe.
Click Here for story |
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baptistbusman
Advanced Member
USA
301 Posts |
Posted - 12/21/2003 : 8:23:31 PM
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I am a bus mechanic for a church, and I have heard so much stuff about 15 passenger vans. Our insurance even requires us to remove our back seat and doesn't allow us to haul more than 10 people in our vans.
It makes me very angry. First off, any vehicle is unsafe considering how it is driven. There have probably been just as many deaths in school buses and transit buses as there have been in van wrecks.
I believe these vans are just as safe as a bus, as long as the driver is careful.
But that is just my opinion. |
1 Timothy 1:15 This is a faithful saying, and worthy of all acceptation, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners; of whom I am chief. |
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JK
Top Member
USA
7307 Posts |
Posted - 12/21/2003 : 10:54:47 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by baptistbusman
I believe these vans are just as safe as a bus, as long as the driver is careful.
I tend to agree properly maintained vans with a carefull driver behind the wheel are safe vehicles to transport people.
As far as numbers, I would suppose about the same are killed in school van related events as with the school buses, when including bus stops. However, I believe there are a lot more buses on the roads during the school day than school vans.
Vans need a reasonably careful driver behind the wheel and extra duty tires properly inflated at all times. Cheaper tires and under inflated tires are major causes of tire failure and of loss of control of these vans.
I often see the lowest grade tire used on church, daycare and nursing home vans, and often the tires are under inflated. I hauled picture frames and portraits to stores throughout several states in a long bed utility van, stuffed full. Could barely keep the van on the road with bargain tires. Increased tire duty weight and air shocks - maneuvered very well after doing that. Better grade tires and proper inflation helps maintain excellent control during a maneuver.
I especially accept that vans are useful for kids the school won't transport. Regardless, parents ought to be informed that their child will be riding in a van, and that the risk is greater in a crash than with a school bus, especially if the child is not wearing a seat belt. If parents are informed and give permission for their child to ride in an activity van, and the van is properly maintained, than the transporter has met the minimum toward providing this less costly service, in my opinion.
However, there are some very high quality used Collins passenger buses available on the market. A good mechanic can have the pick of the litter and save the organization lots of money over buying new 15 passenger vans. I don't think some of the smaller rigs require a CDL - that might be helpful as well. Dump the minimum speck tires and you have a beauty that's nearly as safe as the bigger school buses. (jk)
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Edited by - JK on 12/21/2003 10:57:58 PM |
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John Farr
Top Member
USA
642 Posts |
Posted - 12/22/2003 : 2:16:50 PM
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| I have to disagree with both. The 15 passenger van is basically a cargo van with windows. The thin sheet metal is the only protection in a penetration or roll-over accident. Fully loaded, they are top-heavy and difficult to handle. Some churches even have a roof rack for storage, only making it more unstable. A school bus has much thicker sheet metal, roof bows and a host of safety improvements. Not just an apples to oranges comparison, it is more like bananas and granite! |
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Rich
Top Member
United States
5768 Posts |
Posted - 12/22/2003 : 6:30:55 PM
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I completely agree with John on this issue.
The driver behind the wheel may have plenty of experience, with absolutely no accidents... but what if a truck slams into the van?
Vans are aluminum foil. School buses are iron bars. |
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baptistbusman
Advanced Member
USA
301 Posts |
Posted - 12/23/2003 : 7:45:16 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by R. Solano
I completely agree with John on this issue.
The driver behind the wheel may have plenty of experience, with absolutely no accidents... but what if a truck slams into the van?
Vans are aluminum foil. School buses are iron bars.
A year ago, a van I was driving with 10 teens in it was rear ended by a semi going 60 mph.
It held up quiet well. We only had a few minor injuries, (The ones too proud to wear a seat belt) but even those weren't major. Probably what would have happened if I had a bus is I would have lost control after being hit, and the kids would have been tossed around and flung over seats and such. And without a doubt, I would have had a big old mouth full of steering wheel and windsheild.
I seems to be a matter of opinion to me.
I think they are safe, as long as the tires are properly taken care and the driver is safe. But then again, that's how a bus should be treated also.
They are perfectly safe. |
1 Timothy 1:15 This is a faithful saying, and worthy of all acceptation, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners; of whom I am chief. |
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FirstStudentKid
Senior Member
USA
126 Posts |
Posted - 12/24/2003 : 11:02:42 AM
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| Vans are extremely dangerous and should never be used to transport children. School buses have been extensively tested for crashes, have better emergency exit systems, and are better respected then vans. Cars and other vehicles are more aware of a yellow school bus then a van. Risking student safety is not worth the cost savings of using vans. |
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Diesel3446
Senior Member
62 Posts |
Posted - 12/28/2003 : 3:53:13 PM
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I believe he reason for removing the rear seat in a 15 pass.
van is that statistics have shown the rollover rate for full sized van is greater when they are fully loaded.
Isn't illegal for a dealership to sell a 15 pass. van to be used by shools.
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bosslady
Advanced Member
USA
336 Posts |
Posted - 01/06/2004 : 09:07:14 AM
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I have seen several films and read quite a bit of info regarding the 15 passenger vans. I agree with John Farr. The vans were made to be used as cargo vans and are not structurally safe. I have also watched a film where the vans were tested and in almost any emergency maneuver that was made in these vans they rolled over. When they rolled over the roofs caved in because of the poor structure of the vans. They also held up very poorly if hit in the side.
It is against the law for auto dealers to sell 15 passengers vans to public schools. The dealer can be fined $10,000. I am not familiar with the laws for non-public schools.
Taking out the backseats may help a little with the loading issue, but it still doesn't make the van safe in my opinion.
My 6 year old granddaughter attends a christian school. The school owns some of the 15 passenger vans. I have asked my son and daughter-in-law to not. EVER let her ride in these vans as they are not safe. |
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JK
Top Member
USA
7307 Posts |
Posted - 01/07/2004 : 3:23:50 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by FirstStudentKid
Vans are extremely dangerous and should never be used to transport children.
This simply is not true, in that it is too overstated.
Vans are safe when properly setup, maintained and the responsible acting provider has taken the time to properly train their drivers on how to drive these vehicles safely. Where this is not the case, then your post may be a bit understated. (jk) |
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JK
Top Member
USA
7307 Posts |
Posted - 01/07/2004 : 3:24:23 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by bosslady
... It is against the law for auto dealers to sell 15 passenger vans to public schools. The dealer can be fined $10,000. I am not familiar with the laws for non-public schools. ...
Yes, however, it is not unlawful in most states for schools to own vans and use them to transport students.
According to NHTSA the agency has authority only over new-car sales, so used-car dealers and private parties can legally sell the vehicles to schools, and the schools can legally buy or lease them. This is the reason NHTSA issues and reissues advisories to alert schools of the risks using 15-passenger vans, and do not fine them or pursue criminal charges.
The attempt can be considered half-hearted, in my opinion, even nothing more than a self-promotion to encourage the public to believe enforcement is an actual effort on the part of the NHTSA.
The press does a much better job finding and questioning schools that use vans than does the NHTSA. Just down the street from NHTSA's headquarters in D.C. can be found a large school using vans to transport students every school day.
School buses are safer than vans. Regardless, properly maintained vans with reasonably skilled drivers are safe vehicles, in my opinion. Drove a large van for many years on all sorts of roads and traffic conditions - on occassion making neccessary maneuvers to avoid an obstacle or crash -- doing so with heavier duty tires, air shocks and properly inflated tires. More pickups were crashing on the roads I drove than any other type of vehicle, including vans.
The real problem is simply that providers fail to properly maintain their vans. Some 27% of the vans on U.S. roads are blasting down the road on under inflated tires. And some schools seem to have no problem with tired coaches and the inexperienced driving their vans. The final nail: LACK OF SEAT BELT USE!
Ford recommends that drivers of 15-passenger vans "avoid sharp turns, excessive speeds and abrupt maneuvers." They also say, "it is important that 15-passenger vans be operated by trained, experienced drivers." These drivers do not need to be bus drivers - simply drivers that know what the heck they are doing and are not drunk or on drugs or speeding down the road with a van-load of unbelted kids on board.
The issue with vans, from where I sit, has little to do with the vans themselves. My grief is with shoddy school administrations and transportation providers that override or ignore properly maintaining their vans and training their drivers to drive these vehicles safely. Successful civil suit after successful civil suit does not seem to get the message through some of these providers thick heads. (jk)
Vans' Safety a Question
15-Passenger vans are not school buses!
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Edited by - JK on 01/07/2004 3:25:31 PM |
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Rich
Top Member
United States
5768 Posts |
Posted - 01/07/2004 : 6:37:31 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by JK
quote:
Originally posted by FirstStudentKid
Vans are extremely dangerous and should never be used to transport children.
This simply is not true, in that it is too overstated.
Vans are safe when properly setup, maintained and the responsible acting provider has taken the time to properly train their drivers on how to drive these vehicles safely. Where this is not the case, then your post may be a bit understated. (jk)
JK,
Lets see a 15 passenger van rollover on a highway and get smashed by an 18 wheeler.
Then lets see a Type A school bus rollover, with the same circumstance.
Oh, and don't forget.... 15 passenger vans would probably catch on fire in a situation like that.
I can't believe you would allow use of a 15 passenger van. It is irresponsible. Even if a driver is safe, accidents happen. |
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JC Theriault
Top Member
Canada
1326 Posts |
Posted - 01/08/2004 : 10:24:07 AM
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Thats simply not true re. the statement that a van is more likely to catch fire in a rollover. Van chassis - either completed 15 passenger vans or cutaways delivered for bus body installations - are equipped with Inertia switches which are designed to cut power to the fuel pump in the event of a collision. After driving 15 passenger vans and cutaway type buses this summer on airport charter, I can tell you that they cut off the fuel at the slightest bump. (darn airport loading area curb cuts!). I reset these switches a few times after bumping the curb a few times so they work. In addition the addition of an experienced professional driver adds to the safe operation of such vehicles.
This is another example of false claims being made by someone not working in the transportation field but rather an inexperienced school bus fan.
JC |
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Buskid
Top Member
USA
3368 Posts |
Posted - 01/08/2004 : 12:29:39 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by JC Theriault
This is another example of false claims being made by someone not working in the transportation field but rather an inexperienced school bus fan.
JC
You're really on a roll today, aren't you? |
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Rich
Top Member
United States
5768 Posts |
Posted - 01/08/2004 : 12:30:50 PM
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I noticed you didn't bother to mention what WOULD happen in a crash between both types of "buses".
My father has owned many cargo vans, manufactured by Dodge, Ford, and GMC, and they simply do not hold the road well. I do not like to ride in these vehicles, they have no protection in any event of a rollover, or severe crash.
Also, do these vans have the special caging that a school bus has around its fuel tanks? |
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Edited by - Rich on 01/08/2004 6:03:06 PM |
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PHW
Top Member
USA
1345 Posts |
Posted - 01/08/2004 : 12:38:17 PM
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| The fire danger would be less in vehicles using diesel. I would think a majority of the 15 pass vans use gasoline. Correct me if I'm wrong. |
PHW
Child Check For Life
Chock Wheels For Life
Proud American For Life |
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JK
Top Member
USA
7307 Posts |
Posted - 01/08/2004 : 12:46:45 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by JC Theriault
... This is another example of false claims being made by someone not working in the transportation field but rather an inexperienced school bus fan.
Was that necessary?
R. Solano is more informed than some bus drivers - that awareness, in reading many of his posts, is sufficient to be a fact. He was simply repeating in agreement with what some school bus industry officials have been saying repeatedly, sufficient that I would agree with the same officials were it not that their credibility is suspect, concerning vans and other issues related to school bus safety. Every vehicle, including school buses and riding lawn mowers, entertain a certain amount of risk. Vans are safer, in my opinion, than are some SUV types, especially the Ford Explorer, yet I see plenty a school bus driver driving SUV's. So often the issue with vans crashing includes poor tires, under inflated tires, inexperienced, tired or intoxicated drivers over correcting at higher speeds - and the failure of the passengers to be buckled up when a crash does occur. I continue to believe vans are an excellent solution where schools do not provide bus service within a certain distance from the schools. I'd much rather see kids in a private van pool than walking or riding bikes unsupervised to and from their school on high-risk streets. (jk) |
Edited by - JK on 01/08/2004 12:53:56 PM |
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PHW
Top Member
USA
1345 Posts |
Posted - 01/08/2004 : 1:01:22 PM
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| Tires are important on these vans. Be real careful for those who use recaps. Thin walled or old casings do not recap well. The cords get stretched and lead to case distortion and ultimately blowouts. I had one brand on a large fleet that all had to be removed prematurely. Fortunately there was no accidents from blowouts. |
PHW
Child Check For Life
Chock Wheels For Life
Proud American For Life |
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JK
Top Member
USA
7307 Posts |
Posted - 01/08/2004 : 1:03:34 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by R. Solano
Me... inexperienced? No. You... snobby? Yes.
A professional response does not include the crap above. A van in a crash is not going to fair well. Nor would many types of road worthy vehicles fair well in that type of situation with a semi or other large rig. School buses are subject to intense damage, injury and death in the same situation as well, depending on the circumstances of the crash. Are school buses safer? Yes. Does that make a bit of difference to some school boards and educrats? Nope, not in the slightest. When the school bus service is not available, then a properly maintained private van pool and a good driver behind the wheel are an excellent alternative. (jk)
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Edited by - JK on 01/08/2004 5:58:35 PM |
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JC Theriault
Top Member
Canada
1326 Posts |
Posted - 01/08/2004 : 1:27:25 PM
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Actually all the 15 passenger vans I've driven over the past year have been GM & Ford diesels. A lot of groups realise the cost savings especially on highway or continuous running. Talking to a couple of van rental dealers, they also state that their insurance premiums are a bit lower by offering diesel fuelled vehicles.
And yes I agree that one of worse errors made is being cheap on tires. For some people tires are viewed as disposable so why bother spending good money for something that is going to end up in the trash heap. Its a bad move on the owners part. In fact I've driven for shoddy operators in the past and you can see that cheap maintenance ends up costing more in the long run over the life of the vehicle.
JC |
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Rich
Top Member
United States
5768 Posts |
Posted - 01/08/2004 : 6:06:02 PM
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quote:
I continue to believe vans are an excellent solution where schools do not provide bus service within a certain distance from the schools. I'd much rather see kids in a private van pool than walking or riding bikes unsupervised to and from their school on high-risk streets.
I agree with you on that part, JK.
However, for longer distance school travel, school buses or motorcoaches should always be the first choice. |
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JC Theriault
Top Member
Canada
1326 Posts |
Posted - 01/08/2004 : 6:24:44 PM
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I thought I was done on this topic but I'm failing to see how distance can make a difference in what type a vehicle you are less likely to have an accident while traveling in:
A larger bus, small bus or passenger van can be involved in a collision at high or low speeds, and can also be in an accident 2 miles from the pick up spot or 500 miles away, on a deserted country road or multi-lane highway. Injuries or fatalities depend on a couple of things 1. the type of vehicle and its construction, and 2. the other vehicle(s) or object(s) that it collides with.
My basic argument is that if these vans were deathtraps as some claim, there would have been some lawsuit or other legal action to have them removed from the roads. The last few accidents I recall on the news regarding vans had drivers under the influence of drugs or booze, not qualified to drive passengers or had suspended drivers licenses.
Yes vans can be topheavy when loaded to their maximum rating, but thats when you depend on a properly trained driver to be behind the wheel and know that you don't do stupid moves - jumping in and out of traffic lanes at hight speeds, racing around corners and turns, reducing speed when weather or road conditions dictate it. And making sure passengers are aware of the need to buckle up and do your best to ensure that this rule is followed. When it comes to this last one I'd be the first to flag down an officer if a legal aged passenge refused to wear the belt, let them pay the hefty fine. Or as a last resort I can refuse to operate the vehicle until that condition is met by the unruly passenger. Peer pressure usually works wonders when one person is delaying an entire group.
JC |
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JK
Top Member
USA
7307 Posts |
Posted - 01/08/2004 : 6:53:06 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by JC Theriault
I thought I was done on this topic but I'm failing to see how distance can make a difference in what type a vehicle you are less likely to have an accident while traveling in.
This issue can not end here or anywhere until the press stops catering to so-called government experts that puke out numbers and 'chicken little' statements keeping us all confused about all sorts of things. Vans are subject to intense litigation when involved in a crash with students on board, especially when it's discovered the driver is unlicensed, drunk or some other anomaly that has nothing to do with the vans themselves. So many van crashes involve ejections, and, hear again, unbuckled students bring guaranteed litigation where it can be proven the belts were not usable or the driver knowingly allowed students to ride unbuckled. And tires that can't handle the extra load, bad tires or under inflated tires, excessive speed or erratic maneuvers for the conditions, all play a role that have nothing to do with the vans themselves. Private properly maintained van pools with good drivers are a safe alternative where school boards have ignored their part to help keep kids safe by providing a decent school bus service. (jk)
"There are lies, their are damn lies, then there's statistics." --Mark Twain |
Edited by - JK on 01/08/2004 7:03:53 PM |
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JC Theriault
Top Member
Canada
1326 Posts |
Posted - 01/08/2004 : 7:04:01 PM
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JK - I fully agree with you on your last post. I've been trying to get a motor carrier license to operate my own vehicle on charters and airport transfers here in Halifax NS. The only way I can get a license issued with 'the big boys' who see me as competition and can contest my being issued a license on a 'loss of business to a new competitor' basis is to operate a vehicle no larger than a 15 passenger van, with seats removed to allow for a maximum of 10 passengers plus the driver. I can operate a raised-roof van under these terms for this particular type of operating permit, but would not be permitted to operate a cutaway type bus, such as a single wheeled champion minibus or a single wheeled Girardin bus.
I'll gladly comply with their requests to get my foot in the door and get the business up and running, but now you see that even government blocks the way for me to provide a more professional service. Funny part was that my insurance for a passenger van with my $5million liability coverage was 50% less than if I was running a minibus with the same passenger capacity.
JC |
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JK
Top Member
USA
7307 Posts |
Posted - 01/08/2004 : 7:36:17 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by JC Theriault
JK - I fully agree with you on your last post. I've been trying to get a motor carrier license to operate my own vehicle on charters and airport transfers here in Halifax NS. The only way I can get a license issued with 'the big boys' who see me as competition and can contest my being issued a license on a 'loss of business to a new competitor' basis is to operate a vehicle no larger than a 15 passenger van, with seats removed to allow for a maximum of 10 passengers plus the driver.
I didn't want to bring it up - I annoy enough as it is - but you are correct about the protectionism that has and continues in this industry. And some government agencies are just as dirty dealing in catering to big operations as any other group. So much so sometimes I've come to view some state PTS agencies as a branch of government too industry friendly, rather than children and bus driver friendly where I would want their loyalty. This is one of the reasons I so adamantly declare that every school bus driver must have a working camera on board and an attorney on retainer. No one, including government, seems much interested in protecting decent bus drivers making unintended mistakes. They have their legal beagles, ready to scapegoat the bus driver on a moments notice. Best the career school bus driver have a legal expert on his or her side as well. I wish you good luck and good fortune with your adventure. Glad to see it's not likely passengers using your service would be found unbuckled. Keep higher rated tires running, properly inflated - air shocks a plus - and keep awake and off the stuff when behind the wheel. (jk) |
Edited by - JK on 01/08/2004 7:42:52 PM |
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baptistbusman
Advanced Member
USA
301 Posts |
Posted - 01/08/2004 : 10:14:46 PM
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I see a lot of vans in our area with the Liberator Tires that WalMart sells.
Is that a bad tire to use in a van????? |
1 Timothy 1:15 This is a faithful saying, and worthy of all acceptation, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners; of whom I am chief. |
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Thomas Ford 85-16
Top Member
USA
4177 Posts |
Posted - 01/09/2004 : 3:42:47 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by JC Theriault
false claims being made by someone not working in the transportation field but rather an inexperienced school bus fan.
I think this is getting a little ridiculous.  I'm not so much angry with these types of posts rather than disgusted and disappointed. I expected adults to be a bit more open minded than that and to be the mature ones when needed. |
Mike's Bus Yard - http://buses.zwebpages.com - Since 1999
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JC Theriault
Top Member
Canada
1326 Posts |
Posted - 01/09/2004 : 5:29:53 PM
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The BusBoy - maybe I was a little heavy in the way I spelled out my concerns, but the fact remains that the claim was being put forth by someone who is not behind the wheel of passenger vehicles and doesn't have the 'practical' knowledge of the various operating conditions that each particular vehicle require from its driver.
Driving an empty, private use school bus does not provide the same experience as a vehicle loaded with passengers and therefore that person simply can't toss out accusations without even basic practical experience on the topic at hand.
JC |
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GMCBlueBird83
Top Member
USA
1478 Posts |
Posted - 01/11/2004 : 4:42:50 PM
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Discussions:   . Fighting:   . Let's try discussing issues like adults, and not like children, or even worse POLITICIONS, LOL!
Anyway, back to the topic of vans used on school transportaion. I was curious about the Liberty Multi-Purpose Bus(MPB)http://www.libertybusinc.com/schoolBus/productsMPB.php
They claim that it withstands the Federal Rollover requirement for school buses despite not having a high roof. Of course they don't say how they do this. What are your takes on this bus?
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Edited by - GMCBlueBird83 on 01/11/2004 4:44:46 PM |
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JC Theriault
Top Member
Canada
1326 Posts |
Posted - 01/12/2004 : 7:11:55 PM
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That Liberty van looks like it has had the standard roof either cut off or extremely modified to meet the Federal standards. School bus standards do not required a high roof, its the strength and integrity that counts.
In fact if you looked at their photo gallery you'd notice the gussets placed between the windows and that the new roof actually squares off the top of the vehicle unlike the standard rounded roof edges.
I see nothing that would make this vehicle unsafe and in fact if it was available with the regular van loading doors on the right side it would make an ideal vanpool vehicle with a better roof structure.
JC
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ModMech
Top Member
USA
948 Posts |
Posted - 02/28/2004 : 4:10:44 PM
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This type of vehicle DOES NOT meet Federal Safety Standards that apply to "School Buses". They never have, and likely never will.
It is the responsibility of the district to ensure ALL the vehicles they use (or contract for) to transport students meet ALL applicable standards.
Many districts locally "get around" the standards by doing just what was mentioned, that is by removing the rear seat, and installing a cargo box to prevent the installation of the removed seat. This is skirting the standards of safe transportation.
In fact, I know Ford Motor Company specifiaclly and conspiciously prints on the window stickers, and door stickers that such vehicles "Are not to be used or modified for use as a "School Bus". So, at least with Ford, you would be operating the vehicle in a manner inconsistant with it's design and FMVSS. |
If you want customer service, you NEED an International! |
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Girardin_71
Top Member
Canada
626 Posts |
Posted - 02/28/2004 : 4:49:47 PM
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| well all i say is that Liberty bus company make these thing they call school buses it's just full size van with bus seats and lights on long piece of metal with the wording school bus. if those get t bone the student don't have protection. |
Girardin/Blue-Bird are my favorite school buses
http://www.g71bdpt.net |
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JC Theriault
Top Member
Canada
1326 Posts |
Posted - 02/29/2004 : 06:42:54 AM
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Oh bus_man65, did you even bother to look at the pics on their site. If you did you'd clearly see the inside shot shows the gussets and added structure from the sidewall that goes into the roof section. Someone is going to make a claim against a manufacturer or company on here one of these days that going to result in one hell of a lawsuit. I for one welcome that action - maybe people will think before they speak.
JC |
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Thomas Ford 85-16
Top Member
USA
4177 Posts |
Posted - 02/29/2004 : 07:42:12 AM
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| I guess I'm one of the few that would support those Liberty buses. True, a full sized bus would definitely hold up better in a large crash, but those buses (which they are indeed buses) meet the same standards as any other school bus. There are exceptions of course because of the shape of the 'template' vehicle, but they're still just as safe. They can be a bit ugly, yes, but for one, I kinda liked the one with the high roof and the protruding warning lights. thought it was kind of cool looking. Those Liberty buses would certainly be a MUCH better alternative to a 15 passenger van. |
Mike's Bus Yard - http://buses.zwebpages.com - Since 1999
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YardBird
Advanced Member
USA
427 Posts |
Posted - 03/01/2004 : 4:54:50 PM
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OK, OK. Suppose y'all look at the average 1-ton Ford/Chevy/Dodge van, which is what most of these are.
First of all it's a VAN. I used to work in a custom/conversion van shop before I got my bus license. We chopped everything up-from lil' bitty half-tonners to 1-ton hi-cubes.
It's built to carry a PAYLOAD, be it sheetrock, window frames, boxes of copy paper and sometimes people. Only difference is ya can tie down a payload-TIGHT. (People might object to that.)
It starts out as a hollow, not very well reinforced slightly curved box.
The body is not meant to be a sturdy 'cage', just a rigid 'box'.
The spars on the sides are fairly tough (as tough as stamped sheetmetal can be, anyways-but the bows in the roof might's well not even be there, structurally.
Same stamped sheetmetal-and usually thinner gauge sheetmetal than would be used on a vehicle DESIGNED SPECIFICALLY for transporting passengers-not a 'converted' cargo van, mind you..
Now let's say ya wanna haul people with this basically designed-for-cargo van.
They're gonna want some windows to look out of-and I suppose the driver is gonna want some extra holes in the body as well so he can be aware of what's around him, too.
OK, so out comes the sawzall or the cutting stamp. BANG! BANG! BANG!
Three or four more big holes that used to be structural sheetmetal working with the spars to keep the whole thing rigid that aren't doing that anymore because they've been amputated-leaving weak spots in the structure. OK, so we'll put some glass in there. That doesn't go far for strengthening...let's put some gussets and some extra stamped sheetmetal near those holes to make the structure more rigid. Good. Now we got a buncha sheetmetal buggered together with welded braces to keep it from getting all flippy-floppy in a high wind on a tight turn.
That structure is gonna handle stresses in only two directions- and usually only longitudinally. (On the Y and Z axes) That means that it won't act like a sagging gate when it gets rear-ended.
Trouble is, most of the structural modifications I've seen done to vans don't do much to reduce the effect of lateral stresses. (X axis).
If it gets T-boned by anything with significant mass-it's gonna crush more or less like a grape.
There is usually none to very little structural support in between the side spars. Nothing but sheetmetal there-not too strong (Uh, excuse me-would ya mind steering a little to the left before ya hit me? Yeah, just 7 inches or so-there's a spar there and it might gimme enough time to cuss before your Peterbilt's left front bumper corner slices thru it like a knife thru butter.....Thanks, buddy. 'Preciate that.)
Roof not high enough, you say? Wellnow-we can fix that right quick...out comes the sawzall and away goes everything on top except for the stamped (they use an awful lot of stamped stuff, don't they though?)sheetmetal 'formed rail' that goes around the very top edge of the sides (spot-welded-NOT continuous-beaded) to the spars and roof bows between the side and top sheetmetal.
I dunno 'bout you-but I wouldn't trust my life to a buncha spot welds-nosirreebob...I want a continuous weld in between the joined stamped metal parts in ADDITION to the spot welds.).
NOW we got this buttressed-spot-welded-gusseted-buggered together thing with no top on it that's now all flip-floppy again and do what????
You guessed it! PUT A FIBERGLASS shell over it-either pop-rivet or bolt it down with short carriage type bolts and then glue it so it doesn't leak.
Then hide the construction details with a cute headliner covering it up.
.....The crushed grape thing again-only with less structural integrity-but ya can stand up in it anyhow.
Now-let's have a peekaboo at things like the fuel tank(s) on these things.
I remember Ford's fix for the tank riding up over the rear axle and snagging on a bolt in the cover and spewing fuel out thru the resulting tear in the tank. PLASTIC!
Yup! They put a plastic shroud around the tank near the axle so that maybe there'd be less of a chance of that bolt shearing through the metal should it ever get shoved that way.
Never mind I've seen enough fuel tanks crushed in the junkyard to know that they usually split like eggshells along a seam or something big like a spring leaf gets punched thru it-dragging the piece of plastic shaped now like the end of a spring leaf thru the tank anyways.
As a matter of note* I've never seen a broken gusset from one of these vans getting crushed before either. It's just that after the van was crushed-the gusset wasn't attached to anything anymore-it just wasn't broken.
I dunno if they put frame mounted rail cages on the fuel tanks nowadays like they do buses- Somebody can correct me if I'm wrong here.
Then there's the matter of 'center-of-mass'.
WAY too high on ANY of these vans-I don't care who made 'em.
They put big springs on the cargo vans-to carry the max payload without hitting the frame stops.
Operate one of these partially-laden or unevenly loaded and it might as well not have any weight in it.
If y'all remember, too-the CDL passenger test-where it said people tend to act like cattle in a turn-they lean. That affects your center of mass.
They can also act like swinging beef under certain conditions. Same result.
Unless you lower that van like a Daytona rice-rocket- give it one good crosswind under those conditions and it's going over.
Some of the older Ford single rear wheel type II's we had back in the late 80s had this problem on some of the offramps on the Merritt Parkway.
They were just modified 1-ton cargo vans with the top 1/3 cut off and some sheetmetal riveted on top.
Get going around a tight turn and your passengers start to lean and mix that with a stiff crosswind and sometimes the offside rear wheel would visibly come off the ground a few inches.
The newer chassis-cabs have a wider footprint and dual rear wheels now to help keep this from happening-and they're built just as tough as a type 1 bus from the windshield header bar back.
Cargo van + high center of mass + high side profile + big, boingy springs + spot-welded sheetmetal/gusseting + fiberglass top structure + afterthought 'conversion' safety features = crushed (and possibly burning) grape.
Quote-by JC:
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My basic argument is that if these vans were deathtraps as some claim, there would have been some lawsuit or other legal action to have them removed from the roads.
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There was-it's now illegal for us to use them in our area.
All students must be transported in either type I buses or type II chassis-cab buses with the passenger area constructed to type I bus specs. No converted 1-ton cargo vans or station wagons.
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Sure! I'll pick your kid up closer to the house... Widen your front door!
"I LOOOOOVE MY UNION!" |
Edited by - YardBird on 03/01/2004 5:13:10 PM |
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Thomas Ford 85-16
Top Member
USA
4177 Posts |
Posted - 03/01/2004 : 6:24:24 PM
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| All I was saying is that one of those Liberty van conversions, which meet school bus specifications, would be much better and much safer than a 15 passenger van. I'd take a full sized school bus any day, but if I must, I would take a Liberty over a 15 pack van. |
Mike's Bus Yard - http://buses.zwebpages.com - Since 1999
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Van dangers overlooked by schools
