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dekalbfleet
Active Member
22 Posts |
 Posted - 06/14/2012 : 03:22:22 AM
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| We have 18 International buses 2002-2003 DT466, Allision trans and all at about 100,000mi range in need of inframes. Do any of you guys have this series in this configuration with this problem? We have 980 buses many differnt years before and after the above dates that do not have these problems. International said they couldnt help us with this problem on a warr. or a 50/50. When the inframe is done there is one piston 3,4 that has damage and dumped the coolant to the pan. |
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Wolf0r
Top Member
USA
2181 Posts |
Posted - 06/14/2012 : 08:13:13 AM
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| I haven't heard anything locally here but we sold a bunch of those. I still have two in my fleet. The coolant has been changed every 2 years in them but the coolant still gets rusty. Ones I service for customers I have had to flush twice or 3 times to remove the cruddy brown mixture and always use a new coolant filter. I have replaced the coolant tanks from rusting inside out on a couple. No visible coolant leakage into the oil yet. I'm with you what's up? |
“The good thing about science is that it's true whether or not you believe in it.”
Neil deGrasse Tyson |
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dekalbfleet
Active Member
22 Posts |
Posted - 06/14/2012 : 09:39:05 AM
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| We havent seen the rusty coolant and we do flush and use ph balancer in all our buses and we do regular coolant filter changes on a pm2 service. |
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slippert
Top Member
USA
630 Posts |
Posted - 06/14/2012 : 10:49:50 AM
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I've seen the issues with o-ring failure in my fleet all in same year range in the past yrs, but we put milage on faster than most schools around here as we cover all 7 school districts. normally buses were less than 5 yrs old with between 100,000 to 150,000 miles, most of the time it was number 3 or 4 cyl, these would be done in warranty at IH dealer. usually if we didn't pay to have other cyl's resealed at the same time they would only do the one that was leaking and If I didn't, bus would have to go back for another cyl a few weeks/months later.(murphy's law)
It seemed to be the 466 engines with the extended life coolant here that were a problem up til 2005's then those had the next gen engine with egr, so they have their own problems. LOL
It was strange to me that mine always seemed to be center cyl's and seemed to show up in the spring or last part of winter when block heaters were being used and seemed to happen to my spares or a bus that wasn't driven as much. Heaters are on a timer so it not like they would set all day and get hot, but was strange anyway.
My dealer told me cylinder o-ring rupture was quite common on that vintage 466 and given the TSI they had out about the red coolant eroding the front cover gaskets on that vintage motor I think the seals for liners were prone to the same. I have always serviced cooling systems on or before manufactures recommendations and ck'd for proper system levels with the test sticks or what was available for the type of coolant used. So never figured that was the problem. I think if you haven't seen it in your fleet yet you will if you keep buses long enough.
Can't say any of these were in need of overhaul except for liner o-rings and have not had an issue with rusty coolant except on my 08 bluebirds but I had a 2003 that went down for coolant in oil due to liner o-ring failure (number 3 cyl) for the second time just this past april. was a spare and I went to bring it in for monthly ck and coolant was in crankcase. so either it failed setting there or at the tail end of the last trip out? |
Edited by - slippert on 06/14/2012 11:07:57 AM |
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Thomasbus24
Administrator
USA
4547 Posts |
Posted - 06/14/2012 : 1:47:58 PM
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Red coolant? Using "blank" filters if so?
There was a period of build dates where an additive was left out of the red coolant and it did damage. Sorry I don't have the TSI anymore...didn't copy it when I changed jobs. We had to add that silicate crap to all of em. Could be that yours are in that run and the damage was done early on, just showing the true effect today...my old company lost a bunch of DT's that way. |
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Mechan1c
Top Member
USA
853 Posts |
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IBTMech
Top Member
USA
973 Posts |
Posted - 06/14/2012 : 4:00:54 PM
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Yeah, we've had some liner seal failures in the '97 - '04 range. Disappointing because the engines were not worn out at all. The 'Works' kits came with a totally different liner seal suggesting that the ones that failed were defective but no apologies were made.
We even did a proactive inframe last summer on an '00 530E in a ten wheeler salt/sand/plow truck just because it is a critical piece of equipment and we didn't want it to fail in mid-winter and leave us without a major piece of snow removal equipment. Upon liner removal, the seals were eroding.
I don't think coolant has anything to do with the failures. I think it is the higher temperatures these engines are running at and a defective design that are responsible.
Why else would they have changed the liner seal in the 'Works' kits? |
If it doesn't fit, FORCE it.
If it breaks, well, it needed replacing anyway.
Pullin' wrenches for 45 years. |
Edited by - IBTMech on 06/14/2012 4:08:26 PM |
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slippert
Top Member
USA
630 Posts |
Posted - 06/14/2012 : 4:54:22 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by Thomasbus24
Red coolant? Using "blank" filters if so?
There was a period of build dates where an additive was left out of the red coolant and it did damage. Sorry I don't have the TSI anymore...didn't copy it when I changed jobs. We had to add that silicate crap to all of em. Could be that yours are in that run and the damage was done early on, just showing the true effect today...my old company lost a bunch of DT's that way.
Red coolant using no filter. Some of these were in the TSI about silicate. I got a box full of the stuff sent from International to my shop and added it myself as instructed. I don't know if it was the cause or as IBT says they did change seal design in kits. but with all the ck's we do on coolant, we still see some of the same problems today. not as many but still get a liner seal failure quicker than it should IMO>
funny thing is the E-series I had prior to the ones using ELC coolant say the 98-2000 buses with green I can't remember any failures while they were here. don't know what happened after they were sold. The only ones we had/have big issues with were 2001-2004's with red coolant. |
Edited by - slippert on 06/14/2012 5:15:56 PM |
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slippert
Top Member
USA
630 Posts |
Posted - 06/14/2012 : 5:13:23 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by IBTMech
Yeah, we've had some liner seal failures in the '97 - '04 range. Disappointing because the engines were not worn out at all. The 'Works' kits came with a totally different liner seal suggesting that the ones that failed were defective but no apologies were made.
We even did a proactive inframe last summer on an '00 530E in a ten wheeler salt/sand/plow truck just because it is a critical piece of equipment and we didn't want it to fail in mid-winter and leave us without a major piece of snow removal equipment. Upon liner removal, the seals were eroding.
I don't think coolant has anything to do with the failures. I think it is the higher temperatures these engines are running at and a defective design that are responsible.
Why else would they have changed the liner seal in the 'Works' kits?
I'm not sure what the answer is, but I know some of these same engines in my fleet are starting to fail again with the new seal design Works kits in them. A few years after they were done before and it doesn't seem to matter how diligent I am with cooling system maintenance it still happens. ONe of the reasons I keep my hair high and tight so I can't get a hold of it too pull(LOL). |
Edited by - slippert on 06/14/2012 5:17:03 PM |
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dekalbfleet
Active Member
22 Posts |
Posted - 06/19/2012 : 03:42:27 AM
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| We havent seen any here with just liner seal problems it also will take out the piston on cylinder 5 or 4. We also noticed a updated liner and seals in the works kits and with the lack of $$$ here they started buying a differnt inframe kit and just replacing broken componets and doing the inframes for $7-800 vs $12-1500 so I guess we will see how that grand idea will effect us in the future. Thanks for the other post those were intersting to read. |
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sambrutay
Advanced Member
United States
271 Posts |
Posted - 06/19/2012 : 04:59:43 AM
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IH knows about it, you wont get any help now. but its quite common.
you probably wont find this IKNOW unless you have an inside scoop.
iknow doc IK1200309 and this TSI 06-12-27 is the updated piston
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Bruce |
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dekalbfleet
Active Member
22 Posts |
Posted - 06/20/2012 : 03:18:03 AM
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| WOW all I can say. Thats just a smack in the face right there |
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Thomasbus24
Administrator
USA
4547 Posts |
Posted - 06/20/2012 : 08:14:13 AM
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How dare you shed light on the dark secret! Hired goons will be at your home shortly.
Thanks for posting this, I agree, what a slap in the face, but at least it may explain what is happening to so many of us. |
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IBTMech
Top Member
USA
973 Posts |
Posted - 06/20/2012 : 4:15:23 PM
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Yep. Seen it and dealt with it and not happy about it.
I was always behind the DT466 as the toughest midrange engine but this 'E' series really destroyed my faith in them.
The Maxxforce series has been operating flawlessly SO FAR!
The jury is out. |
If it doesn't fit, FORCE it.
If it breaks, well, it needed replacing anyway.
Pullin' wrenches for 45 years. |
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Inframes
