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JustinB
Advanced Member
United States
490 Posts |
 Posted - 02/09/2010 : 08:48:31 AM
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Background:
Michigan has been going through (some argue self-induced) exceptional budget issues. One of the tems back (partially) on the table is the MI Sate Police School Bus Inspection team.
The current bill as worded carries the following provisions:
[url=http://www.legislature.mi.gov/(S(fvtxie45cd2ngmbcrersxfq4))/mileg.aspx?page=getobject&objectname=2009-HB-5653]HB 5653[/url] – Amend PA-187 “Pupil Transportation Act”
Summary Issues
- Semi-Annual (2x/yr) Self/3rd Party Inspections
- Inspector Certification/Training (delegated to MSP Inspection Team)
- 25% Inspection rate by MSP Inspection Team
- New vehicle insp by MSP Inspection Team
- 2 Other House Bills deal with transition language to “Certified Inspector"
Questions:
- What states have programs similar to this?
- Are there mandated age of bus to retirement?
- Is there are, in what states?
- What have the effects been on the bus fleet in that state?
...Expense/Budget impact?
...Safety?
...Reliability?
- What are some of the potential Hubristic traps operators may fall into under such systems?
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bus724
Top Member
USA
1609 Posts |
Posted - 02/09/2010 : 09:56:18 AM
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In CT, school buses are inspected by DMV's Commercial Vehicle Safety Division once a year. Registrations expire for every school bus on August 31 and cannot be renewed without an inspection within the previous year. DMV has the option to do random inspections at any time, but these are mostly in response to known violations. Buses are also required to have an in-house safety inspection every 3 months.
There is no age limit for a school bus, and many specs are grandfathered - with a few exceptions like seat padding and crossing gates, if it passes the requirements for the date it was built, it passes inspection.
I work for two companies that are polar opposites when it comes to maintenance programs. At one job, I occasionally drive an 88 Blue Bird/Intl, which is in better condition than the 02 Thomas EF I drive at my other job. The owner of the first company keeps his fleet in top shape - if something needs to be fixed, he does it the right way regardless of cost. The other company does only enough repairs to get the bus through inspection. |
Edited by - bus724 on 02/09/2010 10:00:59 AM |
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bwest
Administrator
United States
3820 Posts |
Posted - 02/09/2010 : 10:07:12 AM
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My opinion is this would be a terrible time to have a mandated bus age. Heavens, have you ever looked at the age of an airplane? There is not a mandated age on them.
I think states need strengent inspection policies. Illinois, where I live, in my opinion does not have a stengent enough inspection process. As is stands now we check the brake system and the rest of the bus every 6 months and take to be inspected at a saftey lane. Once a year DOT comes out and inspects the buses wile they are on the lot. The trouble I see is that, for instance, my buses are driven home by the drivers during the school year. So if the inspector shows up he just inspects the ones that are on the lot. Good way to miss one that is bad in my opinion. I know it is my responsability to take care of them. I do that and take it very seriously! What about the person who does not take it seriously?
Another thing that bugs me is the qualification of the mechanics. There is no testing in Illinois. Now I know we can not know everything but you would think there would be a basic test that would have to be passed every once in a wile. I mean at least a test that says what do you do in the event of .....? Answer choices should include: take off route at once and replace with a spare, tell driver to finish route then the problem will be repaired, wait till there is enough time to work the problem into your schedule and so on. We all deal with those issues in a small school setting. I guess the system we have has been working well with the record we have but it makes me nervous when I think about it.
To make my position clear: Here is a message for the "powers that be". If you need to make cuts call that guy up that has been sitting on the couch drinking beer and collecting a check from the government. Tell him to get up and do something to pull his own weight. Keep your hands off the the basic items in the budget! There are many items in this "classification". Some include police, fire, DOT (bridges mainly), education. This is on the state level only. The federal government is a totally different issue. The US Constitution has all the feds need to do in it. Read it some time, it's short and easy to read not like the laws they make now (can you say health care's 2000 plus pages). Start with the 10th amendment!
OK, OK I'll stop. |
Bryan |
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bluebirdvision
Top Member
USA
1081 Posts |
Posted - 02/09/2010 : 10:56:24 AM
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In NY state, school buses are inspected every six months. With the "budget crunch" it would be a horrible time to instiute a max age in my opinion.
We keep our buses 6 years/~95 thousand miles. The last year the bus is a sub and doesn't get used much! |
Facebook Page: Blue Bird Corporation Fans
https://www.facebook.com/home.php?sk=group_212311114614&ap=1
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JustinB
Advanced Member
United States
490 Posts |
Posted - 02/09/2010 : 1:54:32 PM
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In MI we have a lot of front line route buses pushin 15 years. The state fleet average is pushing 8 years.
A real concern is that the state controls the district budgets via a centralized payout scheme & has used this leverage to hold school hostage in the budget proccess. We've seen per student funding drop considerably over the last couple of yeas.
The legislation in the first post seems to be placing more strain on those limited funds. The State Police will get some budget relief but the districts will be forced to carry more costs onless of a budget. |
I may not know the answer but I can usually find who does. |
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Wolf0r
Top Member
USA
2181 Posts |
Posted - 02/09/2010 : 2:43:45 PM
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| They have medical MJ there now right. Tax revenues right there. The people sitting at home smoking weed can help pay. 12 years here in Indiana I believe is max bus age. Some districts are 8 years on contract bus routes. |
“The good thing about science is that it's true whether or not you believe in it.”
Neil deGrasse Tyson |
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RichBusman
Advanced Member
453 Posts |
Posted - 02/09/2010 : 3:54:46 PM
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NY has the most stringent school bus inspections in the country.
Every bus, whether school or commercial needs the following:
- Inspection by state inspector every 6 months
- Road test during the inspection that includes a brake test measured by a meter
- Monthly inspections by district/operator mechanics
Out of service criteria: https://www.nysdot.gov/divisions/operating/osss/bus-repository/oos.pdf
There is no age limit in effect. |
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Jarlaxle
Senior Member
79 Posts |
Posted - 02/09/2010 : 5:21:13 PM
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| An arbitrary age limit (on just about ANYTHING!) is the height of idiocy. |
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Fastback
Top Member
1500 Posts |
Posted - 02/09/2010 : 6:18:25 PM
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IMO the deicing chemicals used on our roads, the twice yearly inspections by the Iowa Department of Education and the inspectors pocket knife  pretty much take the place of a mandatory retirement policy. |
Why yes, the ORIGinal CHARGER is a Fastback |
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BlueBird44
Top Member
USA
1639 Posts |
Posted - 02/10/2010 : 05:54:03 AM
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Delaware we have to have our buses inspected twice a year Once by August 31 and the second by Februrary 28. We take our buses to our local DMV and run through the inspection line if we pass we get a colored sticker for our windsheild black or gold.
Delaware laws used to state that bus contractors (we are majority owned by private contractors) could replace a school bus if it was 7 years old with 100,000 miles and if you have 150,000 miles you can replace at any age. But all buses must be repalced by 12 years old. Buses still can be used as spares for any age as long as they can pass inspection.
Now due to a budget crunch contractors are not allowed to get a new bus till they are 9 years old with 150,000 miles. They have just recently extended the life on the road as a regular bus to 14 years old. I don't think they realize that there old system even though it cost more money maybe kept the buses more reliable because a lot of contractors would switch their buses out at 7 years 100,000 kept the buses on the road more and had more people with up to date safety requirements. |
IC-The Golden Shield of School Transportation |
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hardybusman
Advanced Member
United States
470 Posts |
Posted - 02/10/2010 : 06:21:42 AM
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| All of this is making it really hard on the little guy like me that relies on used buses. Finding a good clean low mileage 12 year old bus was no problem a few years ago. Today is a different story. Some counties here in Va. are running buses 16,17, and I know a couple of counties running 20 year old buses. We are having to buy buses with 200k + miles. I used to get 8 - 10 years outta a bus but, now 5 or 6 is more realistic. Parents dont like seeing their children riding in a junker. |
Mr. Courtney Hardy
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lonebustech
Senior Member
United States
79 Posts |
Posted - 02/10/2010 : 07:06:17 AM
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In Texas there no age on buses. I have 1988 IHC on regular routs and trips (some up to 150 miles away). School Buses are only required to have the same inspection as a car (scary)
I do get a DOT done on all mine once a year. Most school dist do not( I think I'm the only one)
Car type insp is $12.50
DOT is $62.50
Guss it a $$MONEY$$ thing |
22 Buses,18 support vehicles,Grounds equip, buffers and vacuums for 9 campuses. 1 Tech. and 2 bays ain't life grand |
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whe8913
Advanced Member
United States
301 Posts |
Posted - 02/10/2010 : 09:13:13 AM
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Being from the Lone Star State myself, I feel like I need to weigh in on the last post: Lonebustech, I'm not trying to undermine anything you are saying, but regular state inspections are $14.50, and have been that price for a couple of years now.
I also see more districts voluntarily choosing to have the D.O.T. inspection on their school buses. For all other buses operated in Texas, it is state law.
For the school districts, the state offers an "incentive" for having D.O.T. stickers. If a school bus has a D.O.T. inspection sticker, it can leaglly drive at a speed up to 60 m.p.h. on Interstate, U.S., or State Numbered Highways. On other roads, the speed limit is 50 m.p.h. For school buses with a regualar state inspection ("car sticker") the maximum speed limit is 50 m.p.h. regardless of which roadway the bus is travelling.
A state trooper in charge of monitoring inspection facilities once told me that Texas inspection laws essentially state that if a vehicle is designed to be equipped with particular safety devices, (school buses fall into this category) then those devices must be on the vehicle and functioning properly, regardless of what type of vehicle it is.
Also, the individual school's shop facilities usually have a technician or mechanic licensed to perform the inspections, so it is up to that mechanic (both legally and morally) to ensure that the buses meet the standards- regardless of which sticker is placed on the bus.
In other words, if the inspector is doing his job... the bus should be safe to operate with either sticker. One type of sticker is not necessarily "safer" than the other.
Now back to the original topic in this thread... Texas districts seem to do a fairly good job of maintaining a current fleet of buses on their own, without need for a law to mandate replacement age. |
Edited by - whe8913 on 02/10/2010 09:18:21 AM |
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lonebustech
Senior Member
United States
79 Posts |
Posted - 02/10/2010 : 10:46:49 AM
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WHE8913
Ok so I missed it by $2.00 been 5 years since I have had a car inspection done.I will give you that.
As fare as this statement goes it is true
"A state trooper in charge of monitoring inspection facilities once told me that Texas inspection laws essentially state that if a vehicle is designed to be equipped with particular safety devices, (school buses fall into this category) then those devices must be on the vehicle and functioning properly, regardless of what type of vehicle it is."
But the inspection stations that do the car inspection do not do a good job inspection the brake systems( you would be Lucky to find one that could do or even has heard of a brake test) most don't even employ an inspector that can drive a bus( or motorcycle). Rarely inspect the under side for lose body mounts or cracked frames,
They usually do check the lights, horn and see if the tail pipe is there some time will check the fire ext.But what do you want expect for $14.50
I know most of the School Districts in the Dallas-Fort Worth area do not have there buses DOT by an outside agency they have a car type inspection stickers. (lease company have only part done).
Yes most of the School Districts technicians I know do an excellent job at checking the buses on a regular bases and working with there limited budgets. But some of the smaller ones do not have a clue . when I started here 6 years ago brakes were down to metal,tires were baled, light did not work,wheel seals were leaking the dist. had never had a real technician. the budget for bus repairs was $ 5500. a year and they passed inspection every year, by the way I blew through that in the first 20 days.
I personally check mine once a moth. I have a fleet of 21 buses, plus 18 fleet trucks, 2 patrol cars, all grounds equipment and buffer/vacuums and I am the only Technication here and the DOT Inspection help give me peace of mind (just take it in tell the dealership to do the inspection and threaten to turn them in if its not done right and they will find every little thing in the world wrong with the which is the way I like it).
It has taken me 6 years to get my fleet to the point that I would trust it and to know that it is 100% safe( cant vouch for the drivers though)In my opinion I probably have one of the best fleet out there even though some of my equipment is over 22 years old.
And I feel I am probably one of the better certified Technician around. I hold
ASE MASTER BUS TECHNICIAN
ASE MASTER AUTO TECHNICIAN
ASE MASTER TRUCK TECHNICIAN
L1 and L2 TECHNICIAN
and I am a member of Texas Association of School Bus Technicians
[
I will get off my soap box now and go to my coner |
22 Buses,18 support vehicles,Grounds equip, buffers and vacuums for 9 campuses. 1 Tech. and 2 bays ain't life grand |
Edited by - lonebustech on 02/10/2010 11:09:04 AM |
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Thomas Ford 85-16
Top Member
USA
4177 Posts |
Posted - 02/10/2010 : 2:45:11 PM
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I am against arbitary age limits. They are a disincentive to keep your bus in tip top shape if you know that in X number of years you won't even be allowed to use a particular bus anymore. To add to hardybusman's mention of used buses... Buses that come from fleets or states with maximum age limits tend to be underspec'd. So your used buses don't get equipped for the long haul.
BlueBird44, I've spotted a number of DE buses in MI. Since you guys have non-corrosive roads, your 12 year old buses look and feel new to us! |
Mike's Bus Yard - http://buses.zwebpages.com - Since 1999
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Brad Barker
Administrator
USA
874 Posts |
Posted - 02/11/2010 : 08:26:13 AM
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Utah has a similar program. UHP inspectors inspect entire fleet once a year and spot check 25% of fleet once a year. Shop maintenance staff inspects once a year and certifies safety level of each bus. Shop maintenance staff each have to be state certified inspectors. Shop has to be certified as well. I like the UHP inspections. It keeps us on our toes. A trained & impartial set of eyes on each bus is good policy.
No mandated maximum life of buses as yet but it is coming. Each district makes own policy presently on bus life.
Cost to the district is minimal in capital expenses. Labor is minimal as well since it is a part of my annual pm program to safety inspect anyway. |
Brad A. Barker |
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wagonmaster
Top Member
USA
2298 Posts |
Posted - 02/11/2010 : 11:11:19 AM
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Florida requires a 30 day inspection by a DOE certified inspector. We have about 45 on staff. I don't think these rules made any difference in the fleets that were well maintained to begin with, but it may have helped some of those in need, so to speak. We did away with the annual State Patrol Inspection several years ago and it hasn't hurt a thing. Since the DOE trained the Troopers, they weren't likely to find anything we didn't see ourselves. It was a waste of law enforcement and the state agreed to stop the program, to everyone's delight!
There is no age mandate. |
Joe
Land of the Free, because of the Brave! |
Edited by - wagonmaster on 02/11/2010 11:11:54 AM |
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tigger2
Advanced Member
USA
470 Posts |
Posted - 02/16/2010 : 05:49:55 AM
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| Here in Indiana we have to keep our units at least 12 years recently raised from 10 to help with budget woes. Our units are fully inspected once a year and spot checked half way thru the school year, by the state police dot division. |
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bwest
Administrator
United States
3820 Posts |
Posted - 02/16/2010 : 07:18:06 AM
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| Tigger2, Are you saying you can not trade at an earlier age than 12? |
Bryan |
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bcressey
Senior Member
USA
114 Posts |
Posted - 02/16/2010 : 11:21:25 AM
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| In Maine, NH and VT you can run them forever. I will echo the comments on the de icing chemicals. They took care of it that way instead of through legislation. I think mandatory ages just penalize people that take pride in their fleets and maintain them properly. I know a dealer probably shouldn't say that but what the heck?! |
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B. Busguy33
Top Member
USA
3444 Posts |
Posted - 02/16/2010 : 12:54:53 PM
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No age requirement for school buses in MA.
All school buses are required to be inspected three times per year by the Registry of Motor Vehicles. ALL vehicles in MA (including school buses) must pass an annual state inspection (emission and safety). |
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Wolf0r
Top Member
USA
2181 Posts |
Posted - 02/17/2010 : 1:27:41 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by bwest
Tigger2, Are you saying you can not trade at an earlier age than 12?
We have route contracts for 4 years. This is where most trades are done. Some run them 8 years, and some the full 12. The school district may only allow 8 years old or under 100k. Going to be interesting this contract year. |
“The good thing about science is that it's true whether or not you believe in it.”
Neil deGrasse Tyson |
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Admin
Administrator
USA
1662 Posts |
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Topic |
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State Mandated Maximum Bus Age
