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origcharger
Top Member
United States
619 Posts |
 Posted - 01/28/2009 : 1:50:54 PM
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 We have an 04 DT466 that "hiccups" or "skips a beat" occasionaly while out on a route. We have changed the fuel filter and cleaned the "rock catcher". We have also changed the camshaft position sensor and inspected wiring and connections in the area of the starter. There are only the inactive codes of 421, 423, 426, 353? and 335 showing up on the computer, possibly any connection to the complaint? Any ideas? |
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second.flood
Top Member
USA
640 Posts |
Posted - 01/29/2009 : 05:16:22 AM
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| Do you have the "new and improved":) cam sensor installed, properly shimmed? |
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origcharger
Top Member
United States
619 Posts |
Posted - 01/29/2009 : 05:27:58 AM
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| I put #1828345C91 in it. Shims?? I didn't use any shims, didn't know it needed to be shimmed. |
Operating; Seven T444Es, One MaxxForce 7, One VT365, Four DT466s, One E-450 6.0 and one Mercedes in a C2. |
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bbird66
Top Member
USA
881 Posts |
Posted - 01/29/2009 : 1:49:58 PM
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| I havent shimed one in years, Is it the "Black one" (new and improved CMP Sensor) first three are injector circuit codes. What you are describing is to me a classic symtom of the cam sensor. |
Were gonna miss you "Brent"..Good luck in "Heidi land"
"I know you miss the Wainwrights Bobby, but they were weak and stupid people...and that's why we have wolves and other large predators" .. The Far Side
"On a two hour delay when will my child be picked up??"
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IBTMech
Top Member
USA
973 Posts |
Posted - 01/29/2009 : 6:30:16 PM
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We had this problem with one unit a few years ago and a bunch of random codes were set. I tried everything within reason. I was tempted to swap ECMs with a model of the same year but I didn't want to have two possessed buses on my hands so I finally sent it to the dealer for diagnosis. They were stumped too. None of the symptoms or codes made any sense. The engine would just occasionaly stumble.... sometimes stall.... and start right up again and run flawlessly for days.
They eventually tried a new ECM which solved the issue. |
If it doesn't fit, FORCE it.
If it breaks, well, it needed replacing anyway.
Pullin' wrenches for 45 years. |
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ModMech
Top Member
USA
948 Posts |
Posted - 01/30/2009 : 3:35:21 PM
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The EGR engines DO NOT use shims and DO NOT have CMP/CKP sensor issues.
From your codes it sounds like intermittant power loss.
Pull the battery box, make SURE all the "clean power" connections are GOOD AND CLEAN, and if there is a 3 wire weatherpack connector in there, BYPASS it. If it's not there, check next to the starter, two red wires and one white - BYPASS IT.
That should get it fixed. |
If you want customer service, you NEED an International! |
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second.flood
Top Member
USA
640 Posts |
Posted - 01/31/2009 : 5:56:10 PM
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ModMech,
You are right, I did not NOTICE the egr engine reference, but we DO HAVE buses that are 2004 model year with NON EGR engines. I sure HOPE your suggestions FIX his problems.
Man, my ears HURT from all this YELLING! 
Seriously, how do you bypass a weatherpack connector with something better? |
Edited by - second.flood on 01/31/2009 6:01:22 PM |
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ModMech
Top Member
USA
948 Posts |
Posted - 02/01/2009 : 9:10:17 PM
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| Cut out the connector and crimp-splice the wires. |
If you want customer service, you NEED an International! |
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second.flood
Top Member
USA
640 Posts |
Posted - 02/02/2009 : 05:24:35 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by ModMech
Cut out the connector and crimp-splice the wires.
I usually replace those with another (better) weatherpack... guess I never had much luck with butt connectors, though the new heat shrink ones seem to hold up ok at the back-up alarm connection. |
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jeepcjron
Advanced Member
USA
262 Posts |
Posted - 02/08/2009 : 5:44:06 PM
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| the 04 engines start with s/n 2,000,000 have the egr and variable turbo. the model years of engine dont always match the body. depends on when they release the bus from the plant. as mod stated the ecm power supply wiring connector needs to be checked / removed crimped and soldered. i have also seen the battery cables loosened by closing the battery box causing some of these symptoms. your problem could be as simple as a reflash is needed. have yor vin # run on isis. if you dont have the capability call your dealer or post the last 8 digits |
its like a slinky! useless but fun to watch. |
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sambrutay
Advanced Member
United States
271 Posts |
Posted - 02/11/2009 : 09:48:33 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by ModMech
The EGR engines DO NOT use shims and DO NOT have CMP/CKP sensor issues.
From your codes it sounds like intermittant power loss.
Pull the battery box, make SURE all the "clean power" connections are GOOD AND CLEAN, and if there is a 3 wire weatherpack connector in there, BYPASS it. If it's not there, check next to the starter, two red wires and one white - BYPASS IT.
That should get it fixed.
Modmech is on it. That is the fix I see for your symptom usually. |
Bruce |
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origcharger
Top Member
United States
619 Posts |
Posted - 02/11/2009 : 11:21:28 AM
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| I took apart and inspected the connections in the battery box and near the starter. I also removed and cleaned all the battery connections, no recent reports of "hiccups". |
Operating; Seven T444Es, One MaxxForce 7, One VT365, Four DT466s, One E-450 6.0 and one Mercedes in a C2. |
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origcharger
Top Member
United States
619 Posts |
Posted - 02/18/2009 : 6:00:21 PM
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| Ok, engine seemed to run problem free for a time and now its more than hiccups, the engine just seems to cutout at times when under load and you can hear kind of a muffled poping noise from the air intake when its doing it. Dealer had me run an injector disable test and report back on the read outs, apparently the results show I have a bad injector. |
Operating; Seven T444Es, One MaxxForce 7, One VT365, Four DT466s, One E-450 6.0 and one Mercedes in a C2. |
Edited by - origcharger on 02/18/2009 6:01:59 PM |
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ModMech
Top Member
USA
948 Posts |
Posted - 02/22/2009 : 5:30:29 PM
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You need to find another dealer.
The "injector disable" test DOES NOT test injectors, it tests cylinder balance or cylinder contribution (which it what the test used to be called).
For the "Injector Disable" test to be valid at all, you need to have a few things under control first:
- The engine must first pass the KOEO "Injector (buzz) Test" before attempting any other tests.
- Fuel pressure of 60 PSI MINIMUM, not one PSI less, measured with a known good mechanical gauge.
- The air compressor (if equipped) MUST NOT cycle fomr off-on or on-off, I typically open the tank drains and loosen the discharge line fitting at the compressor so it pumps all the time
- The A/C clutch CANNOT cycle, unplug it.
- Touching the steering wheel or the brake pedal (Hyd) will also cause the test to be invalid.
- The fan clutch must remain locked or unlocked during the entire test procedure.
- Engine oil must be scrutinized for age, miles, proper grade and type (CI-4)
- The test MUST be followed by the "Relative Compression" test to verify cylinder integrity.
Few service departments actually follow these procedures so they load up the shotgun, take aim, and FIRE. All with your $$$$ and vehicle.
One other thing, if you truely have a weak injector, it won't run with the suspect cylinder and 4 others disabled while at operating tempm you'll get a message of "Engine not at idle" when you attempt to kill the 4th cylinder. I have only seen this a couple times, it;s the only way to be 100% sure you have the right cylinder and if it passes the Relative Compression test along with all the other criterian, than yes it *may* have a weak injector.
Let me state this another way. If the enigne does not have a misfire, doing the injector disable test is of NO USE WHATSOEVER.
Since your problem is not a misfire, tell them to get their hand off it.
Also, "inspecting" the connections is not good enough. There is typically no visable evidence that the harness female connections are loose. I would wire around the interconnects first.
DO NOT ever replace the OEM fuse holders in the battery box with ones from the auto parts store, you WILL fail them. |
If you want customer service, you NEED an International! |
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origcharger
Top Member
United States
619 Posts |
Posted - 02/22/2009 : 7:03:35 PM
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When I said I inspected the connectors it was the short story of I took them apart, put them back together then tugged and wiggled them while engine was running listening for a "hiccup" or miss, this is how and what the dealer told me to check first.
I was only instructed to disable one injector at a time. They faxed me a form to fill the values in on and then fax back. As I recall: I was to record fuel rate and engine load while running on all six, then disable one cylinder at a time and record the fuel rate and engine load.
The bus is still under warranty so we just do what they tell us to do. The dealer that instructed me to run the test and said I had a bad injector is in your state, I ended up taking bus to local dealer who had rocker cover off and I assume replaced the injector.
We have the bus back, we will see how it goes. |
Operating; Seven T444Es, One MaxxForce 7, One VT365, Four DT466s, One E-450 6.0 and one Mercedes in a C2. |
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harley
Active Member
United States
19 Posts |
Posted - 02/23/2009 : 2:19:07 PM
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| The last 466 we had do this the repaire was to replace all 6 injectors we did and have no more sips, hic ups so |
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origcharger
Top Member
United States
619 Posts |
Posted - 02/24/2009 : 07:49:53 AM
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| Out of curiosity I ran the injector disable test again after the one injector was replaced. The fuel rate and engine load readings from the cylinder they replaced the injector in did rise to a point that is above the calculated "cutoff value" for this engine. |
Operating; Seven T444Es, One MaxxForce 7, One VT365, Four DT466s, One E-450 6.0 and one Mercedes in a C2. |
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ModMech
Top Member
USA
948 Posts |
Posted - 02/25/2009 : 5:25:36 PM
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The "cut off" value varies from one test to another and is not any set number. It is also hugely affected by oil temperature.
Hopefully they have resolved your issue, but an injector was not it. |
If you want customer service, you NEED an International! |
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origcharger
Top Member
United States
619 Posts |
Posted - 02/25/2009 : 6:25:37 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by ModMech
The "cut off" value varies from one test to another and is not any set number. It is also hugely affected by oil temperature.
Hopefully they have resolved your issue, but an injector was not it.
The "calculated cut off value" I spoke of was calculated from this test on this engine at this time.
Oil temperatures were in the 160-170 (green light) range when testing both times.
The Navistar International diagnostic form I filled out the information on specifically stated that a cylinder(s) that tested out as "weak" would be due to either a bad injector or to low compression in that cylinder. AFAIK the local dealer replaced the one injector. Another test after I got the bus back shows no cylinders as weak.
Yes, I definately hope the issue is resolved.
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Operating; Seven T444Es, One MaxxForce 7, One VT365, Four DT466s, One E-450 6.0 and one Mercedes in a C2. |
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Bassman
Top Member
USA
558 Posts |
Posted - 03/23/2009 : 10:17:34 AM
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| Did the hiccup go away? I heard from a friend the other day who had a similar problem on a 1998 466 and it turned out to be a short in the speed sensor on the back of his AT545 which would intermittently spike and cause the governor to kill the power for an instant. |
Edited by - Bassman on 03/23/2009 10:18:18 AM |
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origcharger
Top Member
United States
619 Posts |
Posted - 03/23/2009 : 12:17:28 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by Bassman
Did the hiccup go away? I heard from a friend the other day who had a similar problem on a 1998 466 and it turned out to be a short in the speed sensor on the back of his AT545 which would intermittently spike and cause the governor to kill the power for an instant.
The driver has reported no hiccups since the injector was replaced, he says its running great. |
Operating; Seven T444Es, One MaxxForce 7, One VT365, Four DT466s, One E-450 6.0 and one Mercedes in a C2. |
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Topic |
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2004 DT466..."Hiccups"
