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Thomasbus24
Administrator
USA
4547 Posts |
 Posted - 08/13/2007 : 1:23:57 PM
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It's been an interesting month guys. Sorry for a long post, but I want to get all the info out there and get your ideas.
We're looking at an International 4300 built 12-5-03 with a DT466@235HP (Non-EGR, straight turbo--not variable), Allison MD3060 (always run in economy mode) and Hydraulic brakes. 179,000 miles.
Four weeks ago I go to leave for my route on a Monday morning. All seems well 1st gear, 2nd gear, 3rd gear. Shifts into 4th and immedately back into 3rd. Did that four or five times before I backed off and let it run in 3rd for about a mile before trying to speed up again. This time the ABS light comes on, it shifts into 4th and away we go with no more troubles that day.
ABS light remains on all week, we take it to the International dealer since it will be needing front pads soon anyways...I go on vacation for a week. Back after vacation, the dealer tells me that the reason for the ABS light was that the pads were at 25%. What?
Early that week the ABS light stays off, but the idle speed acts up from time to time. Normally around 725, it would idle at 800, 850 or 900 at stop lights. I always reached down to check that the pedal wasn't hung up, it was fully returned. Friday the ABS light was on off all day long.
Following week the idle is still acting up from time to time. Reved all the way to 1100 RPMs at a red light once. Thursday the Tachometer starts to read 400 RPMs higher than the actual engine speed for about 40 miles then returns to normal. Friday the ABS light comes on for about 150 miles then goes off again.
Today at the boss' request I checked all of the underhood and undertruck electical connections for corrosion. Found none. Did find however, a 3/8 metric socket riding on top of the starter. It's a perfect fit to the valve cover bolts (International adjusted valve lash 79,000 miles ago, and I haven't had a socket anywhere near the top of the engine since). Very rusty except for three places were it's been spinning and rubbing against the starter and I think the hot wire to the solenoid.
Think this could have been the root of the evil? Voltage issues confusing the ECMs?
Have an appointment with International Friday, hoping they can get some fault codes.
If I have no more troubles this week do you all think I should keep the appointment?
Thanks in advance, I'll keep yall updated. |
Edited by - Thomasbus24 on 11/08/2008 08:25:33 AM
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IBTMech
Top Member
USA
973 Posts |
Posted - 08/13/2007 : 5:29:25 PM
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Interesting....... seeing as the DT466E is an all metric engine. All of the valve cover bolts have 10mm heads.
An intermittent short could cause all kinds of issues, however.
Oh, wait. You must mean 3/8 drive. Sorry. |
If it doesn't fit, FORCE it.
If it breaks, well, it needed replacing anyway.
Pullin' wrenches for 45 years. |
Edited by - IBTMech on 08/13/2007 5:31:57 PM |
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ModMech
Top Member
USA
948 Posts |
Posted - 08/24/2007 : 09:17:17 AM
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The 4300 is a FULLY multiplexed vehicle, the engine ECM gets pto and cruise requests from the Body Control Module (or ESC).
Your dealer is either stupid, lying, or they think you are stupid and will believe anyting they tell you. They should be slapped. There is NO WAY the ABS light can have ANYTHING to do with brake pad thickness - that is a bald-faced lie. Yes, you CAN quote me on that.
The ABS, Engine and Transmission controllers all communicate on the "Drivetrain Datalink" to coordinate functions. Clearly something is not qorking correctly here.
The first thing to do is remove the dash panel cover for the fuse panel on the RH side. Locate the two wire connector at the far LEFT side of the metal tube (lower left ofthe fuse panel) with a connecetor on the end. One wire will be green, the other yellow. Remove the connector from the zip-tie, disconnect it from the wiring, then using a DMM, measure the resistance between the two wires. It MUST BE 110-130 ohms (key off), if not, the datalink has a problem and it must be repaired, and that will likely fix the problem.
If that checks ok, find the Body Control Module. It is bolted to the cab (nuts on the outside) outborad of the underhood fuse panel. Remove the Blue, Brown and Gray connectotors, inspect for ANY signs of corrosion, overheated pins, or oxidation (fuzz) on the terminals. BEFORE reassembling, use "Rid-Ox" on all connections. Reassemble. Now go inside to the lower far left under the dash and perform the same procedure to the connections on the inside of the module.
Also, there is a "cannon plug" larger black connection above the module, make SURE that the hood is not rubbing on the ANY of the wires that go into this plug, especially the green and yellow ones.
A VERY common cause of datalink proplems is oxidation of the connection terminals. The next most common cause is water in the connection next to the transmission. You will know if this may be, because when you measure the resistance INSUDE as I outlined, it will be LOW. |
If you want customer service, you NEED an International! |
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Thomasbus24
Administrator
USA
4547 Posts |
Posted - 08/25/2007 : 04:45:59 AM
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Glad to hear that I am not out of touch with reality. Pads causing an ABS light...good one.
So, ever since I've removed that socket I've had no more crazy gauges or self fast-idle YET.
Should I have any more problems, I'll certainly check those things. Thanks for that info!
I am occasionaly getting the ABS light, usually when making brake applications at or below 35 MPH and on a downgrade. After shutting the truck off, restarting and driving over 7 MPH it goes off.
It's going back to the dealer after our spare truck is back with us. We talked to the service manager about that little brake pad stunt, hopefully looking at a parts and labor to repair bill only....no diagnostic charge. |
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Thomasbus24
Administrator
USA
4547 Posts |
Posted - 11/08/2008 : 08:32:53 AM
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So here we are again a year later. While I fixed the ABS light myself awhile back (metal cage that holds one of the sensors had failed) The Fast Idle has made a comeback!
It's extremely intermittant with no rhyme or reason behind it's occurance, and I've seen it as high as 1400 RPM at a stop light. We took it to the dealer to get hooked up and look for codes, they put their best tech on it, he gave me a piece of paper about CAP (cold ambient protection).
CAP? Try again--Happened on a 70+ degree day, after 8 straight hours with about 180 degree coolant temp, while stopped at a red light, Service Brake applied, Park Brake released, Tranny in gear.
Now here is the interesting part. Tuesday afternoon during my post-trip I found oil leaking down the left side of the engine. It appeared to be seeping out of a wiring harness!!! I unplugged the sensor on the left side of the head in the oil rail, and the oil rolled out! Replaced the sensor, cleaned up and drove the rest of the week--No problems.
For the last few months the idle has seemed 'rough' for lack of a better word. There are times when stopping that it feels like it nearly stalls, but never has. None of that now---runs as good as the day we got it, 245,000 miles ago. Seems more responsive as well.
You guys think that sensor starting pass oil, and finally letting go could have been the cause of these problems? |
Edited by - Thomasbus24 on 11/08/2008 08:35:17 AM |
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second.flood
Top Member
USA
640 Posts |
Posted - 11/08/2008 : 08:45:16 AM
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What sensor did you replace, I have a bus now with a surging problem at idle. Very intermittent.
Thanks. |
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Thomasbus24
Administrator
USA
4547 Posts |
Posted - 11/08/2008 : 2:05:58 PM
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| I think it measures the oil pressure in the high pressure system. It's located on the left side of the head, at about the halfway point on the oil rail. Quick disconnect plug with I believe 3 wires. |
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ICrider
Senior Member
United States
127 Posts |
Posted - 11/11/2008 : 1:56:00 PM
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| never seen a bus with an idling problem |
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Thomasbus24
Administrator
USA
4547 Posts |
Posted - 11/11/2008 : 2:45:29 PM
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| Be thankful, it can be quite scary. One had a 1987 Thomas pusher on a route coming up to stop sign, when the driver let off the pedal, the return spring at the engine broke, spun around and wedged the throttle wide open. How that woman made the turn and brought that bus to a safe, controlled stop is beyond me. Guardian angel? |
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Thomasbus24
Administrator
USA
4547 Posts |
Posted - 02/25/2009 : 1:58:56 PM
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Well here we are again. We now are at 258,000 miles and after a long quiet spell, it came back and was quite nasty this time. An unexpected 1500 RPM idle makes it rather hard to stop for a red light!
So just like all the times before, I reach under the dash, grab, poke, twist and prod. Same with the pedal. Nothing. Open the hood, same deal only this time I grap a harness and pull...idle increases even more. Push same harness...idle down. Hmm.
I can grab the harness from the cannon plug and make nice things happen now. FINALY we have an idea. Took it to the dealer this am and of course it won't do it. Thier best tech is going to take a hose to the thing then start messing around to see if it causes the ECM to think somebody is pushing the pedal.
Funny...now they have heard of this problem. Apparently there is now available an updated pedal and wire harness that runs direct to the engine ECM bypassing all of that other underhood stuff. Hoping I get that!
I'll let you know the outcome, good bad or other! |
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Thomasbus24
Administrator
USA
4547 Posts |
Posted - 03/23/2009 : 5:24:26 PM
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As could be expected, it refused to act up for the International tech.
I tell ya boys I don't know sometimes. It's only been 2000 miles so far, but no more issues, BUT this problem has been known to lay dormant for 6 months at a time. Interesting notes include a smoother idle and my MPG increases from average of 9.8 to 10.5 or so. Thought that was kinda neat.
The higher up's instructed the dealer to install the "overlay harness". I havent had time to fully study what all has changed, but I know it starts up under the dash, runs down under the floor mat and out the toe board and over to the engine ECM. Interesting to me is it also included a new harness to the sensor on the air cleaner.
It was explained to me that it takes the accelerator pedal out of the multiplex system and gives it a direct feed to the engine ECM. Unsure if this product is available for the CE chassis, sure someone does, but if this helps anybody then it was worth it.
I'll post any updates should anything change. |
Edited by - Thomasbus24 on 03/23/2009 5:32:35 PM |
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2004 International freak-out
