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mbillman
Active Member
United States
30 Posts |
 Posted - 03/03/2009 : 08:09:01 AM
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| I have a 2008 Vision bus with a cat c7. I am having a great deal of issues with the regen system on this bus. I was wondering if there is a reprogram to change the temp limit on the regen cycle. The bus doesnt get hot enough to regen on its own. I have to regen it manually every other day. It is a real pain. Any help would be great. |
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bwest
Administrator
United States
3820 Posts |
Posted - 03/03/2009 : 09:24:30 AM
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| Have you talked to your Cat dealer? I use Fabick and they are great about getting to the bottom of any issue I have. |
Bryan |
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mbillman
Active Member
United States
30 Posts |
Posted - 03/03/2009 : 11:31:59 AM
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| Yes I have dealt with my local Cat dealer for this issue. They have been great in the past but not very helpful on this issue. |
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bwest
Administrator
United States
3820 Posts |
Posted - 03/03/2009 : 11:52:04 AM
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| Are they saying that it is normal? What are some of your symtoms? |
Bryan |
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origcharger
Top Member
United States
619 Posts |
Posted - 03/03/2009 : 5:04:21 PM
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| Can you switch it to a route where it will get hot enough or at least hotter? |
Operating; Seven T444Es, One MaxxForce 7, One VT365, Four DT466s, One E-450 6.0 and one Mercedes in a C2. |
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mbillman
Active Member
United States
30 Posts |
Posted - 03/04/2009 : 06:50:57 AM
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| Originally the dealer had cleaned the spark plug and sent it back. Later on when I could not regen the bus they said that they could regen with no problem. They were using a lap top to trigger the regen and not the manual switch. They did notice that the pcm was not getting a signal from the manual switch. So they checked it and found nothing wrong, and it just started working. The route is only part of the situation. The timing of the need for the regen also varies. So it doesnt always hit when the bus is on a long run. That is why I thought that a cooler temp limit might give the bus more chances to regen on its own. Also maiking it easier for me to regen it in the lot. |
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bwest
Administrator
United States
3820 Posts |
Posted - 03/04/2009 : 09:20:37 AM
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| Man I knew this would happen. I was discussing this when one was being shown before any were sold and this topic was discussed. This is exactly the reason that we have been buying used pre-07 buses. When this plan is at the end of it's useful life I want to go with a propane. Oh well, live and learn I guess. I think with the Cap and Trade that the president is talking about the diesel engine will no longer be viable and will be discontinued altogether. Not to mention paying twice a much for electricity. We are all going to be using candles and huicane lanterns. |
Bryan |
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mbillman
Active Member
United States
30 Posts |
Posted - 03/04/2009 : 10:22:52 AM
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| I know what you mean. I should have questioned the set up when I was at the OSBMA work shop and they had said that Cat had not changed to motor for the new regs but just added the new ARD system to it. It was the same in the 70s and 80s when they thought you could just slap stuff on a engine and make it cleaner running. I feel that some of the regs are good ideas but some of them are just getting carried away. I just hope that I can find a solution that works because I am stuck with this bus for at least 10 years if not longer. Specially with the school budget crunch. New busses are last on the list. |
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bwest
Administrator
United States
3820 Posts |
Posted - 03/04/2009 : 11:23:14 AM
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| I posted this on another topic and it seems good for this conversation too.I promise I won't repost anything again (at least I'll try not to). I thought that propane would be a better fuel and someones said it was a pain when they had them. I remined them that the new systems are different and then stated the folloing: Do you think CNG would be any better? Or do you think we should just take punches from the greenie weenies and keep buying diesels? I say the school systems are beat down enough with all this nonsense regulation. It's a wonder we have any shchools left as hard as they have been on us. I think the transportation department has faired the best but now they are coming after us. This economy is going down in flames and they keep piling on the regulations that COST MONEY! The private sector can not and will not take it much longer. When they ditch we feel the brunt of the blow with lower income from tax money coming in. California, New York, and Illinois are seeing the fruits of years of state government mischief and the whole country will follow. So you say raise taaxes? Well then it will go down faster because the businesses that are not already gone will either go out their self or raise their prices so much that no one can not afford their product or service. I say take off the regulations on engines (that have nothing to do with safety) and the regulations on the fuel itself. Then we will have a little breathing room untill everyone can get back on their feet. Then we can re-evaluate the EPA regs and go from their. What we are doing all across government is piling more on this pack mule that is on it's belly now. Lets take a little off and let her get up and then put it back if we need to. Sorry, I have been on my "soap box" too much lately. Been breathing too much diesel fumes I guess. |
Bryan |
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enokradeht
Active Member
United States
27 Posts |
Posted - 03/04/2009 : 9:44:01 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by bwest
I posted this on another topic and it seems good for this conversation too.I promise I won't repost anything again (at least I'll try not to). I thought that propane would be a better fuel and someones said it was a pain when they had them. I remined them that the new systems are different and then stated the folloing: Do you think CNG would be any better? Or do you think we should just take punches from the greenie weenies and keep buying diesels? I say the school systems are beat down enough with all this nonsense regulation. It's a wonder we have any shchools left as hard as they have been on us. I think the transportation department has faired the best but now they are coming after us. This economy is going down in flames and they keep piling on the regulations that COST MONEY! The private sector can not and will not take it much longer. When they ditch we feel the brunt of the blow with lower income from tax money coming in. California, New York, and Illinois are seeing the fruits of years of state government mischief and the whole country will follow. So you say raise taaxes? Well then it will go down faster because the businesses that are not already gone will either go out their self or raise their prices so much that no one can not afford their product or service. I say take off the regulations on engines (that have nothing to do with safety) and the regulations on the fuel itself. Then we will have a little breathing room untill everyone can get back on their feet. Then we can re-evaluate the EPA regs and go from their. What we are doing all across government is piling more on this pack mule that is on it's belly now. Lets take a little off and let her get up and then put it back if we need to. Sorry, I have been on my "soap box" too much lately. Been breathing too much diesel fumes I guess.
Capitan inspector, aka gestapo, threw our floor exhaust hose on one of our new buses for its first inspection today. I asked him what are you doing, those are clean engines we don't need to do that anymore? He told me it still stinks. Go figure.
Tom |
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bbird66
Top Member
USA
881 Posts |
Posted - 03/05/2009 : 05:27:41 AM
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| Amen Bwest...Amen... |
Were gonna miss you "Brent"..Good luck in "Heidi land"
"I know you miss the Wainwrights Bobby, but they were weak and stupid people...and that's why we have wolves and other large predators" .. The Far Side
"On a two hour delay when will my child be picked up??"
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mbillman
Active Member
United States
30 Posts |
Posted - 03/17/2009 : 03:55:11 AM
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| Well the bus is on a regular every other day regen cycle. it has only done it on its own twice. I really hope that Cat comes up with a solution for this. I will be putting up with this problem for a long time. Since getting new busses is like pulling teeth anymore. I am afraid to even put it on trips. Any ideas are welcomed |
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bwest
Administrator
United States
3820 Posts |
Posted - 03/17/2009 : 09:22:37 AM
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| I bet it would do better on a trip. A thought here from a scattered mind. Does anyone out there think these engines are going to become the red headed step child of the industry? What I am saying is, Cat is getting out of this market and I can see these machines not having any updates or fixes beyond a federal recall. What do you guys think? |
Bryan |
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Thomas Ford 85-16
Top Member
USA
4177 Posts |
Posted - 03/17/2009 : 11:08:12 AM
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These engine companies have a lot of "legacy" departments to keep updating engines like this. Electronics especially because when certain components on the circuit boards stop being made, the circuit boards sometimes have be redesigned. So, my thoughts are that they will support this engine just like any other.
And remember, they're supposed to have an engine coming out for 2010 that is in partnership with International. So since they'll still have on-highway engines with that partnership, I doubt they would stop supporting the C7. It'd be like them ceasing support for the 3126 or 3208...you can still get parts and service for those. |
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bwest
Administrator
United States
3820 Posts |
Posted - 03/17/2009 : 2:41:02 PM
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| That's true but the 3126 & 3208 are used in off road aplications. I'm not sure but these things are not in the off road world are they? |
Bryan |
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Thomasbus24
Administrator
USA
4544 Posts |
Posted - 03/17/2009 : 5:23:32 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by bwest
What I am saying is, Cat is getting out of this market and I can see these machines not having any updates or fixes beyond a federal recall. What do you guys think?
Sure they will, just make sure you have the vaseline jar handy when you call for a price. |
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IBTMech
Top Member
USA
973 Posts |
Posted - 03/18/2009 : 4:50:56 PM
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| We have 3 Maxxforce DTs, the oldest is 18 months old and we haven't had to do a parked regen yet. They have operated flawlessly, doing their regen cycles as they are driven. The inside of the tailpipe is clean as new. |
If it doesn't fit, FORCE it.
If it breaks, well, it needed replacing anyway.
Pullin' wrenches for 45 years. |
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bwest
Administrator
United States
3820 Posts |
Posted - 03/19/2009 : 05:19:40 AM
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I know we are not helping mbillman but, I am trying to figure out your comment IBT. Are you saying that IH makes a better "air cleaner" than Cat does. I say "air cleaner" because that is what these engines are doing. Cat has arguablly made the best engine for this market over the last several years. Yes I know all the "buts" from all the other companies. At least that statment was true untill these "air cleaners". I just can not help but think maybe if we would have left well enough alone we would not have to spend more money that we really don't have on engines that we really don't need and repairs that we would otherwise not have to make.
Maybe this is one of the reasons for the economic tough spot we are all in today (meaning our country as a whole).
I apologize, I promise I will try to stop making these comments that are not related to a fix. |
Bryan |
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mbillman
Active Member
United States
30 Posts |
Posted - 03/19/2009 : 08:47:52 AM
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| I agree. We as a country are going to regulate our selves to death. For all of us in the education world we are spending too much time and resources on these rules than we are on education. I know I will have to live with this c7 for a long time. I can deal with it, but with money not being spent on the important things like education and regular maintance. We all will be working more to keep older busses on the road longer than they should be. I guess in the big picture it leaves us with better job security. |
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bwest
Administrator
United States
3820 Posts |
Posted - 03/19/2009 : 09:05:23 AM
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I, of course, agree with you except the job security thing. What if the schools systems just can not do this any more. Do you think there is a chance, albeit small, that some schools could cut transportaion out completly? I know, I know, there are laws out there that force schools to offer transportation but what if there were another incentive for the parents? Like say less taxes, free book rental, a few free lunches for their kids or just about any thing that a polotician can dream up to get around the law in place now. You might say that can not happen. Well listen to the news, it is aginst the law for our congress to target tax laws to a particular group or person. But that is just what they are saying they are going to do with those people who got bonuses from AIG. What ever your opinion is on that subject you have to admit that congress needs to follow the constitution.
I'm sorry here I go again, I promissed I would stop. |
Bryan |
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mbillman
Active Member
United States
30 Posts |
Posted - 03/20/2009 : 02:41:39 AM
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| You are absolutley right on that bwest. If the government would follow the constitution as it was laid out by our founding fathers we would be in less of a mess today. I know that no job is secure. I just hope that this one is a little more than some others. I have been the new car dealership for years before the bus biz. So of course I am very pleased I made the move. |
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Brad Barker
Administrator
USA
874 Posts |
Posted - 03/20/2009 : 08:10:13 AM
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There have been several reflash upgrades that have come out of the 07 compliant C7. You must take it to your dealer or have the dealer come to you to perform the job. This may not solve 100% of your problem but it will help. It lowers the regen vehicle speed to 5 mph, meaning the regen process will take place at 5 mph or higher. There are also some things we have learned to do as maintenance on them;1, regen them manually at least once a week, 2, the ARD head needs to be cleaned periodically. There is a plug in the ARD head which needs to be removed and cleaned, not the spark plug but a pipe style plug which gets carbon built up on it. 3, every oil change run ARD cleaning fluid through the fuel system using CAT p/n 304-7755. Instructions come with each kit. Kits cost $12.99 each.
Finally,they are a pain but we are having fewer and fewer issues with them as time goes buy. I do have one which is 19 months old and has been to the dealer 19 times for a wide variety of electronic issues. I do believe they are still the best of the worst for stop and go route driving. If you can find the time, get them out on the highway as often as possible and run em for at least 20 minutes at speeds above 40 mph non-stop. |
Brad A. Barker |
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bluebirdvision
Top Member
USA
1081 Posts |
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bwest
Administrator
United States
3820 Posts |
Posted - 03/20/2009 : 10:24:29 AM
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OK, I felt bad for talking polotics when you were asking a question that we have for the most part danced around. So I called a friend that is a sevice manager at a Cat dealer. Brad Barker is correct except my contact tells me that you should be getting a letter if your engine S/N is covered under this update. Otherwise you are just going to have to manually regen. He also says what confuses this system is that we don't stay above 20 MPH long enough. What is happening is that it tries to regen then the speed goes below 20 then when you get above 20 it tries again and so on. So when the light comes on it needs to be manually regenerated and that means as soon as possible after that light comes on.
Boy I'm glad I don't have one of these!! Used busses for me!! When we get money that we are owed from the state that is. |
Bryan |
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origcharger
Top Member
United States
619 Posts |
Posted - 03/20/2009 : 10:51:53 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by bluebirdvision
What do you guys mean by spark plug....? diesels don't have spark plugs. I like my Cummins ISB-07 better
What, you've never heard of an M Farmall diesel? 
AFAIK the Cat DPF system works differantly than the Cummins/International systems in that it does not add the fuel for the regeneration in the engine cylinders on their exhaust strokes but does it down stream, I believe there also is an ignition mechanism/spark plug near the DPF.
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Operating; Seven T444Es, One MaxxForce 7, One VT365, Four DT466s, One E-450 6.0 and one Mercedes in a C2. |
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bwest
Administrator
United States
3820 Posts |
Posted - 03/20/2009 : 11:08:45 AM
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Didn't know that you were an old tractor guy orig. You might like our club's web site. Be warned it is in the development stage but when finished we will have lots of pictures from our show and other interesting pages. We have really not pushed it yet so not too many have been on it. That will come when we are finished. www.prairiedays.com
By the way MD, Super MD, and I think the other one was a Super MDTA. Looked like a diesel on one side and a gas engine on the other. Might have been a standard tread in there somewhere that had the same set up. Might see some of them at our show this year we are featureing IH. |
Bryan |
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bluebirdvision
Top Member
USA
1081 Posts |
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mbillman
Active Member
United States
30 Posts |
Posted - 03/23/2009 : 02:46:20 AM
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| Thanks to everyone on this issue. I will contact my CAT dealer on the new reprogram. We have established a routine on the regen. The driver now knows how to start the manual regen and sometimes gets it done while waiting between routes and that has helped. Our spring trips are starting soon so hopefully I can get it out on the road more. Thanks again |
Edited by - mbillman on 03/23/2009 04:04:00 AM |
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cat c7
