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shade tree
New Member
United States
4 Posts |
 Posted - 01/21/2008 : 9:05:46 PM
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Hello All, I'm looking to make a used school bus purchase for dual use as a mobile Chiropractic office and a ministry bus. An unusual combination but that's me I suppose. I'm good with cars and have been restoring antiques for decades but buses I know nothing about. I'm glad I've found this forum and I hope you can help. I've come to realize that every bus is plagued by it's own set of circumstances and that there are generalized problems that hit groups as I saw at a recent local auction of some 95-96 model 3800 TT444Es (front and rear seal leaks, steering boxes, rear end play). So for engines what's best? Detroit? IH? Cummins? Pusher? Puller? Transmissions seem to be standard with Allison. How about bodies? IH? Carpenter? Ward? Blue Bird? Genesis? Am Tran? What's the best combination for quality, longevity, handling?
The other issue has to do with these exporters. That local auction turned into a battle between two of them that had those TT444Es going for $6500 a piece with 170K + miles. They shut everyone else out of bidding. Even the resellers were shaking their heads. I've been watching Ebay and I realize that pictures can be very forgiving and that I'm at the mercy of the integrity of a seller who may or may not know what they're selling. The idea of flying into a remote location and having a nice relaxed drive home is appealing, both to catch a break from my crazy life and to avoid these rabid Florida price wars - all things being equal with regards to airfare, fuel, etc. Here are three buses I've been looking at. The URLs follow:
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&rd=1&item=300191119993&ssPageName=STRK:MEWA:IT&ih=020
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&rd=1&item=230213834915&ssPageName=STRK:MEWA:IT&ih=013
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&rd=1&item=110216841946&ssPageName=STRK:MEWA:IT&ih=001
So what say you? I want something safe, dependable, and a good bet. I've got 2 diesel mechanics who can check local stuff out for me and there is another auction coming up in a few months but I also want to get this project off the ground. I appreciate any advice you can give on the above and any other advice you can give for anything I haven't considered as far as purchasing, etc. Thanks!
Ed, St. Augustine, Florida
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busgeek++
Advanced Member
United States
253 Posts |
Posted - 01/22/2008 : 04:18:59 AM
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Except for the fact that they can develop body rust as they age (mostly in areas with road salting for winter), those AmTran RE (the 1999) are good buses. We have tons from 1997 to 2007 around here. Not too many problems.
I haven't heard much good about the Thomas Vista, and there were roof joint issues with *some* early '90s Carpenters, although that was probably fixed. |
Buses are not a way of life, they are life |
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Thomasbus24
Administrator
USA
4547 Posts |
Posted - 01/22/2008 : 2:33:07 PM
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Welcome aboard! Let me address the three links you posted...in my professional opinion, all three are losers for their own special reasons. I'll explain later.
Avoid anything called Vista or 3600--such as your first link. The Vista was a failed attempt, I had three just like that one you are watching---nothing good to say about them.
The transit style (front and rear engine flat nose) buses are okay, but not the nicest things to work on. I will disagree with the above about the International/AmTran RE (your second link), they had issues with overheating because of poor radiator placement. The International Genesis FE series weren't bad vehicles from what I've seen with my very limited experience with them.
Now for your last link...the dreaded Carpenter FE. Carpenter was a quality bus maker until the 1980s when they cheapened them up. Keep in mind that Carpenter is no longer in business...parts are getting harder to find and more expensive. That bus you are watching features an obsolete chassis...again parts may be hard and expensive. That year of Carpenter would be one that was found to have massive defects in the roof structure --any Carpenter pre 1996 have the potential of welding issues that could result in total collapse of the roof in a rollover. Some states have gone so far to to ban them from being sold into thier jurisdictions.
Now for what is good!!
You won't go wrong with International's 3800 chassis which were built from 1989-2002 I believe. They are conventional type chassis, that while pretty plain, were extremely reliable.
While I didn't really care for them, those T444E's were decent engines. Better was the DT360 and the supreme engine to have would be the DT466. The latter of the two can have issues with coolant getting into the oil, especially if the cooling system wasn't properly maintained over it's life...but they are still rock solid, die hard engines.
For your transmission, like you said...mostly allison. If you can find a bus with an MT-643--that's the way to go. Very heavy duty, built to last. The AT-545 was decent, but due to it's design is subject to running a little hot and wearing out quicker than it's bigger cousin.
Brakes---some guys like Hydraulic, I prefer air. See what your mechanics like best.
One word of warning for any International chassis from 1989+. Instrument clusters are notorious for failure. I've seen a lot of 1990's Internationals claiming "low mileage" because the entire cluster was changed out, including the odometer. It's easy to spot in the 1989-1992 buses...they had a flat black cluster originaly...and now lots of them have the newer clear-front type! 1992+ featured that new style, so you'll want to verify through maintenance records that the odometer reading is true.
Now for the bodies.
**Bus makers Carpenter and Wayne are now out of business...parts will be costly for these if needed...keep that in mind...this includes buses labeled Crown by Carpenter from 1996-2000.
**Ward, which became AmTran, which became International, which became IC--the later the model the better the bus became. I'm still not a huge fan of any of them.
**Thomas--a darn good body overall and my personal favorite. They do have issues with rust. Water seeps into the body, soaks the fiberglass insulation, and rust begins from the inside out. You'll see it start on the sides, near the rear wheels, in the ribbed area and also on the rear below the small tail lights. 1994 to about 1998 had rust problems above the rear emergency door also.
**Blue Bird--I'll admit that these are probably your best bet. Rugged, reliable, built to last. Good electrical, good seats, good windows, good paint--just a very, very good bus.
Hope you found some of this useful! |
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busgeek++
Advanced Member
United States
253 Posts |
Posted - 01/22/2008 : 6:23:21 PM
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| True, our '98 AmTrans do run a little hot in warm weather under load('97s do occasionally, but not as often, the newer stuff is mostly ok). Some of those '98s will run 210* normally in 40* weather! |
Buses are not a way of life, they are life |
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IBTMech
Top Member
USA
973 Posts |
Posted - 01/22/2008 : 6:35:15 PM
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I'm with Thomasbus 24.
IH/Thomas 3800. DT466/MT643. 10K front end and air brakes. Bluebird would be my second body choice as they have more rust and electrical issues in my experience.
We've had a bunch of 'em and they've served us well. |
If it doesn't fit, FORCE it.
If it breaks, well, it needed replacing anyway.
Pullin' wrenches for 45 years. |
Edited by - IBTMech on 01/22/2008 6:36:32 PM |
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BBInt.10
Top Member
USA
1042 Posts |
Posted - 01/22/2008 : 9:23:53 PM
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| I'd agree with Thomasbus24 for the most part. With my experience, though, you'll get more power out of an old DTA360 than you will out of an old DT466. Personally I prefer Blue Bird for bodies, however you also won't go wrong with a Thomas. Thomas's have pretty low standard headroom and I've always found that pretty annoying. |
If all your problems are behind you... you must be a school bus driver. |
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Rich
Top Member
United States
5768 Posts |
Posted - 01/22/2008 : 9:28:44 PM
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I have a 1987 Thomas International with a DT466 and MT-643 for sale.  And yes, the Thomas body and International chassis, or Blue Bird body and International chassis is the only way to go... but these are also the most expensive ones to get. |
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Thomasbus24
Administrator
USA
4547 Posts |
Posted - 01/23/2008 : 2:04:17 PM
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| OH...an s-series International (1978-1989)! Slightly more beastly, slightly less mechanic-friendly than the 3800, but rock solid as you can get! |
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BBInt.10
Top Member
USA
1042 Posts |
Posted - 01/23/2008 : 3:18:37 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by Rich
I have a 1987 Thomas International with a DT466 and MT-643 for sale. And yes, the Thomas body and International chassis, or Blue Bird body and International chassis is the only way to go... but these are also the most expensive ones to get.
That might not be a bad idea for you. Richard's '87 is a Thomas, but it's got high headroom (won't have to worry about your chiropractic customers hitting their heads) and it's got lit changeable destination signs (put your business name on the sign and slip it in the sign box). And, as he said, it's got the DT466 engine and the MT643 heavy duty transmission... a good rock solid combination. Good luck with whatever you decide. |
If all your problems are behind you... you must be a school bus driver. |
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shade tree
New Member
United States
4 Posts |
Posted - 01/25/2008 : 11:43:31 PM
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| I really appreciate all of your input. It's been a big help and has probably saved me some costly errors. I'm 5'8" and a lot of the buses I've been on I'm barely making headroom. Rich, where's your bus? If you can, give me a link or send me some photos at dredncarol@msn.com or call me, (904) 814-7104. |
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Advice and Help Needed with Used Bus Purchase
