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td83
Senior Member
83 Posts |
 Posted - 05/22/2017 : 07:00:23 AM
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I have a dt that long cranks when bus has sat overnight like 10 seconds or so , it has 2335 icp unable to build at crank .
I checked once warm it starts fine , I checked history a month ago it was "repaired for same issue " they removed hpo manifold and installed new o -rings and icp , a new ipr was also installed
--I have had no starts hot with hpo leaks so not suspecting that ,seeing as this starts fine once hot ,sat overnight issues I have seen are the fuel filter check valves going bad but I don't think its the issue as i watched the icp struggle to build and it has a 2335 dtc
-- I know this is out there has anyone seen the main engine oil pumps go bad thinking possible* once sits and its bone dry harder for it to prime system
--and or the injector pucks thinking if leaking would be a no start hot definitely i would think,ut could it be possible one or more is leaking draining oil from hpo manifold causing this ?
--i checked injectors and intake heater both tested fine |
Edited by - td83 on 05/22/2017 07:26:10 AM
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RonF
Top Member
867 Posts |
Posted - 05/22/2017 : 07:52:40 AM
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| I have one that has been doing the same thing for a long time. Last year I did the pucks, and injector o rings. It is now back to a longer start. |
US Army retired CMBT |
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Bassman
Top Member
USA
558 Posts |
Posted - 05/22/2017 : 08:52:43 AM
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| Check for diluted oil. We have had many occurrence's of diluted oil in these engines. When the DOC gets face plugged or the dpf gets too much restriction and needs to be cleaned, the pressures rise and the in-cyl dosing goes past the rings. We have seen it go over 20 percent dilution on these engines. Change the oil and see if it fixes it. |
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RonF
Top Member
867 Posts |
Posted - 05/22/2017 : 09:02:10 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by Bassman
Check for diluted oil. We have had many occurrence's of diluted oil in these engines. When the DOC gets face plugged or the dpf gets too much restriction and needs to be cleaned, the pressures rise and the in-cyl dosing goes past the rings. We have seen it go over 20 percent dilution on these engines. Change the oil and see if it fixes it.
Not on mine. |
US Army retired CMBT |
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td83
Senior Member
83 Posts |
Posted - 05/22/2017 : 10:29:28 AM
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I did check for diluted oil we have had a number of hours have a good amount of fuel in them as well but this one was clean, and I would think it should have an even longer crank with diluted oil once hot , But I had another tech have the same issue today** actually long crank same engine comparing has same 2335 unable to build icp
--As far as acting like , it acts like the fuel filter housing issue with the check valve just don't know why it throws only the 2335 code but I think that's the route im going to go with this will update , and have had the long crank issue before a few times just don't remember getting a 2335 dtc from it ? you would think even with no fuel pressure icp should be ok ?? |
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oliver88
Active Member
14 Posts |
Posted - 05/23/2017 : 06:00:32 AM
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| I have 2 2006 Internationals DT466 that had long cranks when cold. Found starter bad on both of them. Wasn't spinning fast enough to start but started fine when hot. Sounded like they were spinning fine until new starters were installed. Now you hardly here them crank and they are running. |
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RonF
Top Member
867 Posts |
Posted - 05/23/2017 : 07:06:28 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by oliver88
I have 2 2006 Internationals DT466 that had long cranks when cold. Found starter bad on both of them. Wasn't spinning fast enough to start but started fine when hot. Sounded like they were spinning fine until new starters were installed. Now you hardly here them crank and they are running.
Funny timing. The one I was talking about a few post up had the started die yesterday morning. We will see when the new one comes in. |
US Army retired CMBT |
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td83
Senior Member
83 Posts |
Posted - 05/23/2017 : 08:18:53 AM
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| Man well haven't checked mine yet I put on the housing just by what ive seen but obviously taking a chance with it . makes sense about the starter issue though didn't think of that would def have issue building icp il update later thanks for the input oliver88 have a feeling you may be right, light bulb moment upon reading your comment . |
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flint1
Senior Member
Canada
74 Posts |
Posted - 05/23/2017 : 08:35:38 AM
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| Have had several be oil leaking from the injectors. I crank the engine with the valve cover off, and the injectors unplugged. Some dribble is normal. Usually the faulty injector is easy to spot. If the pucks have not been replaced I'd replace those too. |
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JoeHEB1
Advanced Member
498 Posts |
Posted - 05/23/2017 : 12:01:08 PM
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| Try swapping HPOP with a known good one, had long crank issue once and after changing oil, injector O-rings and pucks I swapped out HPOP with another bus and guess what? The problem moved to the other bus. |
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td83
Senior Member
83 Posts |
Posted - 05/25/2017 : 04:47:33 AM
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--well I tried to start the bus mabey 3hrs after replacing the fuel housing on Tuesday but this time hooked up laptop and inspected cranking rpm bus did start in about 5-6 seconds a little delayed and rpm while cranking was 150 ish until it fired up , so even though started not too delayed wanted to check again after a overnight sit
--checked again today again inspected cranking rpm bus did start this time about 7-8 second delay and the whole time while cranking rpm was no higher than 150 until it fired up
--what is normal cranking speed Im thinking this is low but doesn't at all sound like a slow crank when in bus both I and the foreman agreed on that but don't know what else it could be possible injector even though they bus test fine and once driving even after a cold start engine operates great doesn't skip a beat ,
--I know some suggestions on hpo leaks my only issue with this is its been serviced for the same issue a month ago where icp and hpo rail rings were replaced and ****from my experience not a seasoned vet by any means I have never seen a leak in a hpo system where it starts better once the bus is hot it from what I have seen is always worse or wont start at all once hot
--any suggestions let me know , im kinda wanting to hang a starter on her and see if it gets better , batteries are ok |
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oliver88
Active Member
14 Posts |
Posted - 05/25/2017 : 05:21:51 AM
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| The 2 that I had also cranked about 150 RPMs with delayed start maybe 6-8 seconds. After I replaced the starters I couldnt get a cranking RPM because it would start to fast to get one. The old ones sounded ok but the new ones crank really fast I can tell you and fixed my problems on both. |
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td83
Senior Member
83 Posts |
Posted - 05/25/2017 : 06:04:00 AM
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| ---Ok I was at the point of wanting to put one on and check felt likely could be the issue , but foreman called a dealer guy who usually will give some advice on a tricky bus he said he thought the rpm was ok but suggested to pull the oil temp switch on the back of the timing cover he thinks oil may be draining down after sitting like internal leak and the long crank and the system having to prime again, makes sense too as a logical explanation of the symptoms , so was told to let sit again pull the sensor and check for oil draining out , will update tomorrow thanks |
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td83
Senior Member
83 Posts |
Posted - 05/26/2017 : 03:17:44 AM
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Well this am went out and pulled oil temp switch which is on the back of the hpo reservoir thinking could be draining back down causing issue
--found oil was full in reservoir so back to square one I want to try a starter don't know what else it could be , told to wait for now will update when figured out
---the other bus that I mentioned earlier in the post for similar issue long cranks and sets 2335 code as well , they decided to install new O-rings ,injectors was checked this am and it also still has issue ..long cranks sets 2335 dtc what are the odds both of these in the shop same time , thinking likely have the same issue ?
--only issue is the starter checks ok , cranking speed at 150 is spec **but wondering the bus will start everytime just cranks long so mabey even though spec is 150 and it long cranks could a new one say get to 170-180 rpm ?? and bus would start faster and not long crank on these engines |
Edited by - td83 on 05/26/2017 03:28:11 AM |
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JoeHEB1
Advanced Member
498 Posts |
Posted - 05/26/2017 : 04:10:20 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by td83
Well this am went out and pulled oil temp switch which is on the back of the hpo reservoir thinking could be draining back down causing issue
--found oil was full in reservoir so back to square one I want to try a starter don't know what else it could be , told to wait for now will update when figured out
---the other bus that I mentioned earlier in the post for similar issue long cranks and sets 2335 code as well , they decided to install new O-rings ,injectors was checked this am and it also still has issue ..long cranks sets 2335 dtc what are the odds both of these in the shop same time , thinking likely have the same issue ?
--only issue is the starter checks ok , cranking speed at 150 is spec **but wondering the bus will start everytime just cranks long so mabey even though spec is 150 and it long cranks could a new one say get to 170-180 rpm ?? and bus would start faster and not long crank on these engines
Try swapping HPOP it's not hard to do. If it doesn't work you can leave them be. It's the last thing left on your check list I believe. |
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td83
Senior Member
83 Posts |
Posted - 05/26/2017 : 04:43:48 AM
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| yea that's where were at , ordered a hpop , will update once its on ,Thanks a |
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JoeHEB1
Advanced Member
498 Posts |
Posted - 05/26/2017 : 04:45:41 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by td83
yea that's where were at , ordered a hpop , will update once its on ,Thanks a
You don't have a bus to swap it out with? |
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td83
Senior Member
83 Posts |
Posted - 05/26/2017 : 05:03:56 AM
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| We do we have 1200 or so fleet of school busses 550 that our shop services , but you have to take another bus down for a bit to swap ...they seem to spare no expense in the bus shop they just want em in and out . If its a quicker part to replace this bus is an Re with the small window access ,sometimes we swap out , bossman said order so ya know . |
Edited by - td83 on 05/26/2017 05:21:54 AM |
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JoeHEB1
Advanced Member
498 Posts |
Posted - 05/26/2017 : 06:25:12 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by td83
We do we have 1200 or so fleet of school busses 550 that our shop services , but you have to take another bus down for a bit to swap ...they seem to spare no expense in the bus shop they just want em in and out . If its a quicker part to replace this bus is an Re with the small window access ,sometimes we swap out , bossman said order so ya know .
Nice..... |
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Midwest
Active Member
USA
25 Posts |
Posted - 05/30/2017 : 10:35:58 AM
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We would suggest you look at this option:
Part # 3505300C1.
Complaint: Hard start/No start cold.
Cause: Relay for the ECM bad. The relay might not be powering up the ECM fully to let engine run until it has some heat buildup in it which allowed it to operated properly.
Correction: Install new ECM relay.
Good Luck |
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td83
Senior Member
83 Posts |
Posted - 06/01/2017 : 03:14:20 AM
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well I installed the new hp pump yesterday ran bus and noticed that it was long cranking hot hadn't noticed that before seemed to start better once warm when I was checking the bus a few days trying to diagnose
--so at this point was thinking mabey I never got it hot enough to see this or something like I said had not seen this till now and drove a while before when checking and seemed to start fine
**did notice this am was the first time out of mabey 5 or 6 long sits that the bus fired up in 2 seconds ....what threw me off thinking not a hp leak is everytime when cold would take 8-10 seconds to start and now this am fires right up ...so either I didn't verify All of the symptoms as good as I should have and it does have a hp leak though the rail o rings were changed a month ago ...or the hp pump I put on is junk anyway at this point gonna tear it back down valve cover off and see what I find ...thinking if it is hp leak possibly pucks |
Edited by - td83 on 06/01/2017 03:23:58 AM |
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td83
Senior Member
83 Posts |
Posted - 06/01/2017 : 09:40:02 AM
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| Pulled valve cover let run couldn't see and issue tried to get warm got to where would start to long crank and inspected couldn't locate leaky area , went ahead and pulled hp rail o rings were done a month ago and look fine just removed injector pucks and they **look ok too my question is when pucks are the cause what have you found is the o -ring suppose to be worn or the puck cracked in any area just wondering what to look for don't want to keep tossing parts at it was hoping to see something broken or worn . |
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namao
Senior Member
Canada
89 Posts |
Posted - 06/01/2017 : 1:01:03 PM
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| Hello TD83, looks like you got it fixed good. Here is a post I did a while back to some one, might be something you might want to look in on especially with all the buses you service. I have my porta power set up for 6.0, 7.3 and the 466. Saves a lot of guess work when figuring out if you have a leak under the v/c. ***** Hello, first thing I would do is unplug icp and try to start, it should go to a default duty cycle on the ipr and start if there is no mechanical problems. If it does not start either no oil to hpop pump, hpop pump is bad, ipr is bad or there is a leak under the v/c. Next thing we would do same as said before by one member is, we have a porta power set up to test under v/c systems for holding pressure [for 7.3/6.0 and 466] works really slick just hook up to head connection and it should give you 1500 to 2000 psi within a couple pumps and hold above 500 for a extended period of time. Under the valve cover as well as the pucks you could have a injector leaking, pull v/c cover and crank if there is a leak should be able to visialy see. This is where the porta power helps it either holds or it doesn't. If there is no leaks and you have a good supply of oil from engine it needs a hpop pump. We did one on a truck couple weeks ago and hot no start and it was the pump could go either way though. good luck. |
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td83
Senior Member
83 Posts |
Posted - 06/05/2017 : 08:23:45 AM
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---just checked bus starting while hot after new injector pucks and injectors were installed
started right up fine , didn't fine anything busted o -rings upon tear down that I though would cause this issue but I guess its fixed at this point . |
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2009 IC Maxxforce DT long crank
