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Fastback
Top Member

1500 Posts

Posted - 08/16/2016 :  06:10:51 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Out with our troubled MaxxForce 7, bus is back online with a new 2007 emission Cummins ISB.

bwest
Administrator

United States
3820 Posts

Posted - 08/16/2016 :  07:32:08 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Cool! I'd be interested in knowing the difference in performance and power.

Bryan
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Fastback
Top Member

1500 Posts

Posted - 08/16/2016 :  07:50:52 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Cummins claims a 17% fuel economy increase and it has a five year 100,000 mile warranty.
Package included new starter, exhaust after-treatment, power steering pump and air compressor. They reused radiator, CAC, cooling fan and alternator.

The Maxx 7 removed from this bus was 215 Hp 560 ft lb torque, the Cummins installed is 220 Hp 520 ft lb torque. So far the power seems similar.

Why yes, the ORIGinal CHARGER is a Fastback
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second.flood
Top Member

USA
640 Posts

Posted - 08/16/2016 :  08:22:47 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
What year bus? Cost of the switch?

Thanks,
Scott
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Fastback
Top Member

1500 Posts

Posted - 08/16/2016 :  11:02:42 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by second.flood

What year bus? Cost of the switch?

Thanks,
Scott



Bus is a 2010 model year that had a 2007 emission engine.
Quote was $27,800 for the re-power.

Why yes, the ORIGinal CHARGER is a Fastback
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bwest
Administrator

United States
3820 Posts

Posted - 08/16/2016 :  11:22:41 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
WOW! 27,800!! lol I'd have to really like that bus to want to keep it. How many miles does the chassis have on it?

Bryan
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Fastback
Top Member

1500 Posts

Posted - 08/16/2016 :  11:24:46 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
83,500 miles on the odometer.


Probably could of had the IC dealer reuse the aftertreatment, air compressor, starter, etc. and put a reman V8 in it with a 2 year warranty for 2/3 the price of the repower. But I would of had little confidence in it and probably been wanting to trade it off at first opportunity and they have little trade in value.



Why yes, the ORIGinal CHARGER is a Fastback

Edited by - Fastback on 08/16/2016 11:35:17 AM
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bwest
Administrator

United States
3820 Posts

Posted - 08/16/2016 :  12:43:58 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Fastback

83,500 miles on the odometer.


Probably could of had the IC dealer reuse the aftertreatment, air compressor, starter, etc. and put a reman V8 in it with a 2 year warranty for 2/3 the price of the repower. But I would of had little confidence in it and probably been wanting to trade it off at first opportunity and they have little trade in value.






No, no, don't get me wrong, I think you made a good decision based on the facts as you see them. I just don't have the same confidence in the chassis/ body that you do. Everyone in our positions weigh the facts and put our own logic in the mix and come to a conclusion we can live with (or at least our boards can live with ) From my observation on here I believe you made a decision that you think is the best for your school!!

Bryan
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Fastback
Top Member

1500 Posts

Posted - 08/16/2016 :  1:21:35 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Understood, we still have a 1996 model year bus and this re-powered 2010 is now the only bus we own that has any component under warranty.

Why yes, the ORIGinal CHARGER is a Fastback

Edited by - Fastback on 08/16/2016 1:23:01 PM
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second.flood
Top Member

USA
640 Posts

Posted - 08/17/2016 :  10:39:50 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Thanks @Fastback. That's about what I expected. Sometimes we just have to make the best choice from several not so good options!
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Fastback
Top Member

1500 Posts

Posted - 08/17/2016 :  11:26:42 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
We have experienced the expense of repairing the SCR system on a 2010 emission bus, so being able to buy a new 2007 emission Cummins in 2016 had some appeal, even if the only way to get it was retrofitted into an otherwise good bus that was pushing seven years old.

Why yes, the ORIGinal CHARGER is a Fastback
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JoeHEB1
Advanced Member

498 Posts

Posted - 08/17/2016 :  11:31:36 AM  Show Profile  Visit JoeHEB1's Homepage  Reply with Quote
Wow! Nice.... less headaches now with the Cummins. Good move, wish we could repower all of our Maxx7. I'm jealous lol.
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sambrutay
Advanced Member

United States
271 Posts

Posted - 08/18/2016 :  05:46:13 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
We currently have 27 Cummins repowers. It really is the most cost effective solution to the junk V8 engine.

Bruce
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Thomasbus24
Administrator

USA
4544 Posts

Posted - 08/18/2016 :  07:06:47 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Nice to hear they will do a 2007 emissions retrofit on a bus old enough. When I read up on the program (just out of curiousity) I took it that they would all be 2010 emissions.
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sambrutay
Advanced Member

United States
271 Posts

Posted - 08/18/2016 :  07:58:09 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
NO UREA ON THESE BAD BOYS.

Bruce
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Fastback
Top Member

1500 Posts

Posted - 08/18/2016 :  10:45:55 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by sambrutay

We currently have 27 Cummins repowers. It really is the most cost effective solution to the junk V8 engine.




Have you done any before and after fuel mileage comparisons? Wondering if Cummins claim of a 17% improvement in mpg is ringing true?

Why yes, the ORIGinal CHARGER is a Fastback
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sambrutay
Advanced Member

United States
271 Posts

Posted - 08/19/2016 :  06:42:10 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote

Have you done any before and after fuel mileage comparisons? Wondering if Cummins claim of a 17% improvement in mpg is ringing true?
[/quote]


Not yet.

Bruce
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slippert
Top Member

USA
630 Posts

Posted - 08/21/2016 :  05:57:06 AM  Show Profile  Click to see slippert's MSN Messenger address  Reply with Quote
I don't see why you wouldn't see at least 17 percent increase... The buses I have here with Cummins engines from factory do at least 2 miles per gallon better than the Max force engine ... We're only talking 1.19 to 1.53 mpg if you were getting 7-9 mpg before... Keep us posted if you run mileage comparison!!
quote:
Originally posted by Fastback

[quote]Originally posted by sambrutay

We currently have 27 Cummins repowers. It really is the most cost effective solution to the junk V8 engine.




Have you done any before and after fuel mileage comparisons? Wondering if Cummins claim of a 17% improvement in mpg is ringing true?
[/quote).
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darpen5
Active Member

USA
16 Posts

Posted - 08/22/2016 :  12:03:25 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Where do i get more info on this repower package it sounds if you had it done our shop would do it in house ifwe would find a bus worth the $27,000 repower?

Darrell R Holland
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Fastback
Top Member

1500 Posts

Posted - 08/22/2016 :  04:39:43 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by darpen5

Where do i get more info on this repower package it sounds if you had it done our shop would do it in house ifwe would find a bus worth the $27,000 repower?



Contact an authorized Cummins dealer/repair center in your area.

Why yes, the ORIGinal CHARGER is a Fastback
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sambrutay
Advanced Member

United States
271 Posts

Posted - 08/23/2016 :  04:37:21 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
BUS # MPG BEFORE MPG AFTER
B0512 6.8 7.3
B0629 6.0 7.3
B0703 6.6 5.9
B0779 5.4 6.8
B0947 4.7 5.9
B1012 5.8 5.5
B1040 6.0 5.3

Bruce
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bwest
Administrator

United States
3820 Posts

Posted - 08/23/2016 :  05:38:07 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
03, 12, & 40 drivers are either punching it and "feeling their oats" or you have issues, don't you? Kind of strange they would go down.

Bryan
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slippert
Top Member

USA
630 Posts

Posted - 08/23/2016 :  06:58:02 AM  Show Profile  Click to see slippert's MSN Messenger address  Reply with Quote
These aren't after an engine swap...they are original engines, Maxxforce DT's and 6.7 cummins, all special needs routes, so longer straight runs and less stop and start, all have same Allison trans and same rear end ratio(the 2-BB's slightly different ratio)and same/similar HP... I was off on my statement of 2mpg more (above), but still should be close to 17 percent more.... driver habits and other factors ..I am sure everyone's mpg varies

Bus
yr yr
2006 DT 8.50mpg...... 2009 6.7L 9.31mpg
2008 DT 7.95mpg...... 2009 6.7 9.87mpg
2012 DT 8.06mpg...... 2015 6.7 9.6 mpg
2014 DT 7.36mpg...... 2016 6.7 9.57mpg
2014 DT 7.89mpg...... 2017 6.7 9.5 mpg

I have one 2017 IC Regular ed(no W/c lift)bus is still used for special needs kids... but is figuring out to 11.3 mpg ??? with Cummins engine, will be interesting to see if holds true or driver miles/gallons are incorrect or it is actually getting that mpg...I do see some difference in the mpg on routes with more wheel chairs, longer stops/idling to load and secure chair I would suspect...

Edited by - slippert on 08/23/2016 07:06:49 AM
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bwest
Administrator

United States
3820 Posts

Posted - 08/23/2016 :  10:24:13 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by slippert

These aren't after an engine swap...they are original engines, Maxxforce DT's and 6.7 cummins, all special needs routes, so longer straight runs and less stop and start, all have same Allison trans and same rear end ratio(the 2-BB's slightly different ratio)and same/similar HP... I was off on my statement of 2mpg more (above), but still should be close to 17 percent more.... driver habits and other factors ..I am sure everyone's mpg varies

Bus
yr yr
2006 DT 8.50mpg...... 2009 6.7L 9.31mpg
2008 DT 7.95mpg...... 2009 6.7 9.87mpg
2012 DT 8.06mpg...... 2015 6.7 9.6 mpg
2014 DT 7.36mpg...... 2016 6.7 9.57mpg
2014 DT 7.89mpg...... 2017 6.7 9.5 mpg

I have one 2017 IC Regular ed(no W/c lift)bus is still used for special needs kids... but is figuring out to 11.3 mpg ??? with Cummins engine, will be interesting to see if holds true or driver miles/gallons are incorrect or it is actually getting that mpg...I do see some difference in the mpg on routes with more wheel chairs, longer stops/idling to load and secure chair I would suspect...



Do you have any Cats still running? I have one that runs a special route getting in the 9s. The chassis has over 230k (engine has about 70k). I really don't know why it's doing so well to tell the truth.

Bryan
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slippert
Top Member

USA
630 Posts

Posted - 08/23/2016 :  11:19:53 AM  Show Profile  Click to see slippert's MSN Messenger address  Reply with Quote
No I don't have any Cat engines in my fleet to compare to rest.... the list above are all IC,CE300's except for the 2009's listed they are BB visions
quote:
Originally posted by bwest

quote:
Originally posted by slippert

These aren't after an engine swap...they are original engines, Maxxforce DT's and 6.7 cummins, all special needs routes, so longer straight runs and less stop and start, all have same Allison trans and same rear end ratio(the 2-BB's slightly different ratio)and same/similar HP... I was off on my statement of 2mpg more (above), but still should be close to 17 percent more.... driver habits and other factors ..I am sure everyone's mpg varies

Bus
yr yr
2006 DT 8.50mpg...... 2009 6.7L 9.31mpg
2008 DT 7.95mpg...... 2009 6.7 9.87mpg
2012 DT 8.06mpg...... 2015 6.7 9.6 mpg
2014 DT 7.36mpg...... 2016 6.7 9.57mpg
2014 DT 7.89mpg...... 2017 6.7 9.5 mpg

I have one 2017 IC Regular ed(no W/c lift)bus is still used for special needs kids... but is figuring out to 11.3 mpg ??? with Cummins engine, will be interesting to see if holds true or driver miles/gallons are incorrect or it is actually getting that mpg...I do see some difference in the mpg on routes with more wheel chairs, longer stops/idling to load and secure chair I would suspect...



Do you have any Cats still running? I have one that runs a special route getting in the 9s. The chassis has over 230k (engine has about 70k). I really don't know why it's doing so well to tell the truth.

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sbfreader
Senior Member

153 Posts

Posted - 08/23/2016 :  2:37:34 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
The DT has 13% more displacement than the ISB so some of the fuel economy is likely to be due to size displacement alone. It's not proportional so you can't say you are automatically going to get 13% better fuel economy. It's not 1-to-1. Overall power-to-weight would be interesting to see too because the DT definitiely weighs more but I wouldn't know how much the buses fully loaded compare to each other.

Edited by - sbfreader on 08/23/2016 2:38:27 PM
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Fastback
Top Member

1500 Posts

Posted - 08/24/2016 :  08:14:35 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by sambrutay

We currently have 27 Cummins repowers. It really is the most cost effective solution to the junk V8 engine.



How much clearance between lower radiator hose and front engine mount do you have on your repowers?
Also were there any initial issues on any of them as far as any dash gauges or hand throttle not working?

Why yes, the ORIGinal CHARGER is a Fastback

Edited by - Fastback on 08/24/2016 2:06:29 PM
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sambrutay
Advanced Member

United States
271 Posts

Posted - 08/26/2016 :  05:40:51 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Fastback,
I will look at one when it comes thru the shop and check out the clearance. They install an external hand throttle switch. so far they all work. All gauge functions are normal. We have a pre 2007 emission bus with a C7 Cat being retrofitted right now. Let you know how that goes when it gets done.

Bruce
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Fastback
Top Member

1500 Posts

Posted - 08/26/2016 :  06:54:12 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Ours has the original IC installed cruise/throttle switches, after the repower they still work on cruise but not as a "hand" throttle, maybe just a simple programming issue.
Our dash ammeter shows the discharges but nothing on the charging side, voltmeter shows 14 volts so it is obviously charging.
Lower radiator hose assembly is a hose on each end of a metal pipe, the radiator to pipe hose is much closer to the front engine mount bracket than I would like to see.

Why yes, the ORIGinal CHARGER is a Fastback

Edited by - Fastback on 08/26/2016 07:00:02 AM
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Fastback
Top Member

1500 Posts

Posted - 08/26/2016 :  08:05:03 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
We originally purchased our now Cummins repowered bus new in 2009, it was partially funded with some EPA grant money. One provision of the grant was that we had to put the bus in daily route service and submit detailed fuel mileage records every quarter for a school year to the grant administrator.

3rd quarter 2009 report with original V8 MaxxForce, 7.56 mpg

Same bus repowered, first fill up with Cummins ISB, 8.8 mpg

Why yes, the ORIGinal CHARGER is a Fastback

Edited by - Fastback on 08/26/2016 08:12:10 AM
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Rhale
New Member

2 Posts

Posted - 06/02/2017 :  08:33:20 AM  Show Profile  Visit Rhale's Homepage  Reply with Quote
Is there a program for the swap through International?
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Fastback
Top Member

1500 Posts

Posted - 06/05/2017 :  04:35:30 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
I know of at least one International dealer who has done the Maxx7 to Cummins swaps.

Why yes, the ORIGinal CHARGER is a Fastback
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