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Rich
Top Member
United States
5768 Posts |
 Posted - 04/18/2003 : 6:08:48 PM
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SBIC NewsFLASH Warns of Rollover Failing of Carpenter Buses
In the National Association of Public Transportation’s School Bus Information Council’s inaugural NewsFLASH, they warn of Carpenter Manufacturing Company’s Type D school buses having a possible defect in its roof welding. The report stems from an accident where a 1991 Carpenter Type D bus rolled over onto its top in Alachua County, Fla. The roof then collapsed down to the seat line. Immediate inspections of the bus by Alachua County officials and the Florida Department of Education revealed that a large number of structural welds in the roof structure failed. The information infers that the bus would not have met the requirements of FMVSS No. 220, which requires school buses to have a roof strength capable of supporting 1-1/2 times the weight of the bus.
Upon further inspection of other Carpenter school buses in Florida built using the same design, a number of deficient structural welds were observed. The Florida DOE has asked for the National Highway Traffic Safety Administration to initiate a special crash investigation, which will possibly take several months. Other school buses having the same structural design as the Type D are also believed to have possible weld failures. These include all Carpenter Type C and D buses built at Carpenter’s Mitchell, Ind. plant between 1986 to late 1995.
Since Carpenter manufacturing is no longer in business, there are no options available from the manufacturer to help in identifying or repairing the weld defects. The Florida DOE has suggested removing all potentially affected Carpenter school buses from service returning them to routes once they have been inspected and possibly repaired. The state of Florida purchased approximately 689 Type C buses and 58 Type D buses from Carpenter Manufacturing during the 1986-1995 time frame.
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School Bus Photos and Links: http://www.schoolbuscentral.com |
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BusladyofSoCal
Advanced Member
USA
366 Posts |
Posted - 04/20/2003 : 09:09:42 AM
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We all knew Crapenters were crap, this proves it..unfortunantly in a sad way. They should never have been on the road let alone use a Crown name on them.
Buslady
Crown Coach: The Energizer of buses, it just keeps going and going and going.....
Crown Coach Archive
http://crowncoach.tripod.com
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Carpenter Bus_19
Advanced Member
USA
286 Posts |
Posted - 04/20/2003 : 4:38:46 PM
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Everything else on the road isnt perfect either... Including CROWNS!!!!
It seems like mine is holding up just fine.
I did have one with a few bad window posts but they have since been repaired.
Luke L. C.
Operations Manager |
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thomas86_a
Top Member
USA
4413 Posts |
Posted - 04/20/2003 : 6:54:54 PM
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Yeah supposadly the Thomas Vista had the same problem that the Carpenters are having. I don't know anything about structural integrity so I can't go into detail, just stating what I've heard. Maybe someone else has more details.
The Thomas M2 Conventional- Coming to a bus yard near you in 2004! |
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B. Busguy33
Top Member
USA
3444 Posts |
Posted - 04/20/2003 : 7:53:37 PM
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quote:
All 8 of our Thomas HDX's are currently being rotated to the dealer for warranty work on the steering. They have continually been going to the dealer for warranty repairs since we got them last year. One is so bad that it has apparently been agreed it will go back to the factory for warranty repairs.
This may sound like a stupid question, but I am going to ask it anyway.   Anyone please feel free to answer my question or elaborate on it.
When any type of warranty work is done to a relatively new bus (being one to three years old or so), does it cost anything to have the warranty work performed at the bus dealer where the bus was purchased from? Do you have to pay for parts or labor? Or, is it similar to if you bring your car into the dealer for warranty work?
Edited by - B. Busguy33 on 04/20/2003 7:56:31 PM |
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Peter
Top Member
USA
1057 Posts |
Posted - 04/20/2003 : 9:25:43 PM
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Forgive me, Carpenter lovers (all two of you), but I've always thought that these were from the bottom of the bus barrel. Why did people choose them? Were they the least expensive bus or was there something else? Maybe I'm missing it...
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Thomas Ford 85-16
Top Member
USA
4177 Posts |
Posted - 04/21/2003 : 06:49:45 AM
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quote:
Yeah supposadly the Thomas Vista had the same problem that the Carpenters are having. I don't know anything about structural integrity so I can't go into detail, just stating what I've heard. Maybe someone else has more details.
The Thomas M2 Conventional- Coming to a bus yard near you in 2004!
I remember that. Bus it was actually just the visible parts that were cracking. If you looked at pictures it showed the outside cracking at the top of the windows. That's not the acual beam, though, that's the cap on the outside. On the inside, however, the actual support beam is what you see between the windows, and is painted.
Stop at: http://buses.thesummit.biz
This is an industry where people brag about their times for 60-0, not 0-60. |
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wagonmaster
Top Member
USA
2298 Posts |
Posted - 04/21/2003 : 08:06:00 AM
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We Had a number of Carpenter buses in 1990-91(mostly lift buses). These were among the best lift buses we ever had, to date. Hardly any issues with them at all. On the 12 or so buses we have left, the inspection process has begun. We have found very few issues with which we must deal, overall they are o.k.
The unit that had the bad roof bow cracks, and caused all the commotion, was a "D" type forward control from a Florida District. It rolled (while empty) and the roof, which is supposed to support the weight of the bus, was flattened to the tops of the seats all the way down! The driver was injured, but will recover, I understand. Most, if not all, of the welds that hold the roof bows together were broken and separated. This left pretty much just sheet metal holding the roof on the bus!! Since the type "C" units were manufactured using the same process, in the same plant, they need to be inspected as well.
Unfortunately Carpenter isn't around to stand behind their units anymore and share the costs of these repairs, or the blame for any injuries..........
Joe
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PHW
Top Member
USA
1345 Posts |
Posted - 04/21/2003 : 08:34:53 AM
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It sounds like there is not a test program to insure the buses continually meet safety standards. In cars you hear every year how the different models perform in crash tests. Does anybody know of yearly crash reports on buses?
PHW
Child Check For Life |
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jimbo20
Senior Member
USA
159 Posts |
Posted - 04/22/2003 : 06:35:50 AM
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Tell me about it. We have 123 to look at
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wagonmaster
Top Member
USA
2298 Posts |
Posted - 04/22/2003 : 09:48:47 AM
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Buses are tested BEFORE they are allowed to be sold. After that, you're on your own to do or not do whatever you think. I've NEVER heard of a school district or department re-testing buses for anything remotely like the NHTSA crash tests. Who could ever fund it, and who could give up the bus to do it to???
Joe
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PHW
Top Member
USA
1345 Posts |
Posted - 04/22/2003 : 11:42:54 AM
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Due to the high number of weld failures it would look like the problem was from the factory. Where they tested or checked properly before they where sold?
PHW
Child Check For Life |
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Thomas00
Top Member
USA
546 Posts |
Posted - 04/23/2003 : 3:36:32 PM
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"If defects are found remove the Carpenter buses from fleet."
1. My only question is what is a large fleet suppose to do when all the Carpenters buses are remove from the fleet?
2. The districts are going to have to double up routes until the the buses are replace?
3. Keep the buses that are due to retried soon longer until they can finish replacing the buses?
I'm sure this is what running through all fleet mangers mind! We have a lot of Carpenter units 1990, 1991, 1993, and 1994. I know some drivers had to take their buses off routes due to this defects. This really causing a lot of commotion! I must Carpenter we have are really good buses. We never had any trouble out of Carpenter until now.
~Georgia Drivers Together We Fly High~ |
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BusBoy
Top Member
USA
2042 Posts |
Posted - 05/05/2003 : 5:29:58 PM
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Joe,
Does the roof bow's ever loose their strength over the years?
Edited by - Busboy on 05/05/2003 5:30:36 PM |
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Steven A.Rosenow
Top Member
USA
1926 Posts |
Posted - 05/06/2003 : 02:33:04 AM
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Hmmm..
I think I read somewhere, I don't know where, that a school bus' roof must be able to support the entire GVW of the bus, plus 1/2 of it.
Gillig was very smart when they designed their buses. Instead of just roof bows welded to the rail above the windows, the roof bows were one piece that also formed the side window and body pillars. I wonder why other manufacturers never picked up on that. (I also can vouch for that, because I've dismantled a Gillig right down to the skeletal framing).
As for Carpenter, I'll agree with anyone who says they were the lowest of the heap.
Back in 1995, Shelton School District purchased a fleet of 15 Carpenter FE units, all 84 passenger capacity models. Within six months, things started breaking on the buses, like dashboards, seat-to-rail fastenings, and on one particular bus, they had to have the front of the roof rebuilt and its dashboard replaced because it broke in half. The roof experienced a major weld break, and it caused the bus to leak like it had no roof at all. And on one bus, the floor had to be replaced. The buses were part of a several hundred thousand dollar bond measure to replace an aging fleet of 15 pre-77 Gilligs, some dating back as early as 1965. Nearly eight years later, they're still regretting that mistake.
 
http://www.geocities.com/gilligcoaches/ http://www.teamtwintowers.org/
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wagonmaster
Top Member
USA
2298 Posts |
Posted - 05/06/2003 : 06:25:31 AM
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I guess anything can loose strength over time, but it shouldn't happen to a roof bow or roof with the structural integrity built into it like a school bus. Vibration, collisions, and even corrosion can cause a loss of strength in anything bolted, rivited or even welded together. None of the manufacturers clean and paint the interior roof bows or welds. After the welding process the bare metal is left to it's own devices. If the roof doesn't leak it(the structure and welds) should have no problem lasting through the useful life of the bus. If it has leaks of sufficient nature, your guess is as good as mine.
National standards require a school bus to support it's own weight at max GVWR on the roof. Transit standards require them to support even more, maybe double the weight.
Joe
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BusBoy
Top Member
USA
2042 Posts |
Posted - 05/06/2003 : 06:46:06 AM
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Thanks Joe!
I was thinking that moisture could be the big problem to corrode away at the metal areas of the bus. I know that the salt up here is the buses worst enemy.
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Thomas Ford 85-16
Top Member
USA
4177 Posts |
Posted - 05/07/2003 : 04:59:19 AM
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quote:
Gillig was very smart when they designed their buses. Instead of just roof bows welded to the rail above the windows, the roof bows were one piece that also formed the side window and body pillars. I wonder why other manufacturers never picked up on that. (I also can vouch for that, because I've dismantled a Gillig right down to the skeletal framing).
I think most manufacturers have done the same thing since the late 70s. My bus has no welds there when I remove the wiring cover. It's solid all the way through. I don't think you'll find many buses at all with welded roof bows. Carpenter must've been behind the times at that factory.
Stop at: http://buses.thesummit.biz
This is an industry where people brag about their times for 60-0, not 0-60. |
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NewsFLASH Targets 
