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bwest
Administrator
United States
3820 Posts |
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Fastback
Top Member
1500 Posts |
 Posted - 01/31/2017 : 06:09:16 AM
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| Probably "scaring" Mercedes/Freighliner as much or more as they are getting set to roll out the "new Detroit™ DD5™ and DD8™ engines." |
Why yes, the ORIGinal CHARGER is a Fastback |
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bwest
Administrator
United States
3820 Posts |
Posted - 01/31/2017 : 06:22:13 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by Fastback
Probably "scaring" Mercedes/Freighliner as much or more as they are getting set to roll out the "new Detroit™ DD5™ and DD8™ engines."
Just like the politics in the US, the next few years in the school bus industry are going to be interesting. Speaking of politics, I wonder what the new policies of this administration are going to do to requirements for engine manufacturers? |
Bryan |
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JRob
Advanced Member
207 Posts |
Posted - 01/31/2017 : 07:44:26 AM
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| I would say that is more a reflection of Thomas having an issue vs. Cummins and that issue is their alt fuel programs are half-hearted. They offer products but no real commitment and their next new thing is the DD5. As to the crux of their argument, it's true. Diesel is very much better than it was with regards to emissions and it is the most efficient solution for many. |
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Fastback
Top Member
1500 Posts |
Posted - 01/31/2017 : 08:21:19 AM
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| As far as I know Thomas/Freightliner have no plans to offer a gasoline powered version of the C2, that might be a large part of the motivation to release this article. |
Why yes, the ORIGinal CHARGER is a Fastback |
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bwest
Administrator
United States
3820 Posts |
Posted - 01/31/2017 : 08:26:22 AM
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| Many? "Some" would be a better word to use. Propane is a good solution for "many". The obstacle for some, in our industry, is change. The methods used in diesels to deal with EPA regs are, undoubtedly, necessary but we don't have to go that route now. Besides less fuel cost per mile historically (at this point in time the cost is about the same per mile) there are savings on fuel filters, oil, oil filters, & more. Long term, there are no particulate filters, turbos, expensive injectors, or EGR coolers to fail. For those who keep their buses for a long time, or put many miles on them, they would be better served with propane. The history of propane engines shows that they can last longer than diesel engines. In fact, I have seen at least one engine that outlasted three pickups. In short, this report is misleading at best. That, of course, is my opinion. lol |
Bryan |
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Thomasbus24
Administrator
USA
4547 Posts |
Posted - 01/31/2017 : 08:37:56 AM
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The last line in the story says all: "Thomas Built Buses will continue to invest in technologies and innovative solutions that benefit our customers and the communities they serve, and we will continue to make diesel an even better solution for our customers now and into the future."
I believe this is just a puff piece to help introduce the new Detroit engine. Expect the same from International when the VW engine is formally announced. |
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bwest
Administrator
United States
3820 Posts |
Posted - 01/31/2017 : 10:20:46 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by Thomasbus24
Expect the same from International when the VW engine is formally announced.
VW? Air cooled? lol No more coolant issues! I might be a player on that one! |
Bryan |
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Thomasbus24
Administrator
USA
4547 Posts |
Posted - 01/31/2017 : 11:57:43 AM
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| Hey, now there's an idea! |
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International-9.0
Advanced Member
USA
459 Posts |
Posted - 01/31/2017 : 5:03:25 PM
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Does VW have any plans to do a "wet sleeve" air-cooled engine?  |
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Fastback
Top Member
1500 Posts |
Posted - 02/01/2017 : 06:14:05 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by bwest
Long term, there are no particulate filters, turbos, expensive injectors, or EGR coolers to fail. For those who keep their buses for a long time, or put many miles on them, they would be better served with propane.
And you didn't even list the components involved with the SCR system that have caused us the most problems and expense.
We've developed a fear of owning 2010 emission diesels that are out of warranty. |
Why yes, the ORIGinal CHARGER is a Fastback |
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krmvcs
Advanced Member
362 Posts |
Posted - 02/01/2017 : 07:59:17 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by Fastback
quote:
Originally posted by bwest
Long term, there are no particulate filters, turbos, expensive injectors, or EGR coolers to fail. For those who keep their buses for a long time, or put many miles on them, they would be better served with propane.
And you didn't even list the components involved with the SCR system that have caused us the most problems and expense.
We've developed a fear of owning 2010 emission diesels that are out of warranty.
This only seems to be an issue with short routes and the typical stop/go pickups. My routes only have a couple of stops and then get 20+ miles of highway driving so i dont see any of the issues that you guys have had with your SCR units. So they work well for me.
This illustrates much of what Bwest has said about having options and competition. Not all district needs are the same and its great to have a variety of vehicles in production for us to choose from to best suit those needs. |
-Ken- |
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bwest
Administrator
United States
3820 Posts |
Posted - 02/01/2017 : 08:02:46 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by International-9.0
Does VW have any plans to do a "wet sleeve" air-cooled engine?
I literally laughed out loud! |
Bryan |
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bwest
Administrator
United States
3820 Posts |
Posted - 02/01/2017 : 08:08:30 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by krmvcs
quote:
Originally posted by Fastback
quote:
Originally posted by bwest
Long term, there are no particulate filters, turbos, expensive injectors, or EGR coolers to fail. For those who keep their buses for a long time, or put many miles on them, they would be better served with propane.
And you didn't even list the components involved with the SCR system that have caused us the most problems and expense.
We've developed a fear of owning 2010 emission diesels that are out of warranty.
This only seems to be an issue with short routes and the typical stop/go pickups. My routes only have a couple of stops and then get 20+ miles of highway driving so i dont see any of the issues that you guys have had with your SCR units. So they work well for me.
This illustrates much of what Bwest has said about having options and competition. Not all district needs are the same and its great to have a variety of vehicles in production for us to choose from to best suit those needs.
It would be interesting to know the percentage of school buses that run the stop and go routes vs. the open road routes. The two 2010 IC buses I have with the DT and massive EGR are on the open road routes you are talking about. The rest of my routes, I think, would be considered the stop and go. I believe I remember people in our industry telling the EPA that these systems wouldn't fair well in most situations because of this very issue. But I digress. |
Bryan |
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Fastback
Top Member
1500 Posts |
Posted - 02/01/2017 : 08:40:23 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by krmvcs
quote:
Originally posted by Fastback
quote:
Originally posted by bwest
Long term, there are no particulate filters, turbos, expensive injectors, or EGR coolers to fail. For those who keep their buses for a long time, or put many miles on them, they would be better served with propane.
And you didn't even list the components involved with the SCR system that have caused us the most problems and expense.
We've developed a fear of owning 2010 emission diesels that are out of warranty.
This only seems to be an issue with short routes and the typical stop/go pickups. My routes only have a couple of stops and then get 20+ miles of highway driving so i dont see any of the issues that you guys have had with your SCR units. So they work well for me.
This illustrates much of what Bwest has said about having options and competition. Not all district needs are the same and its great to have a variety of vehicles in production for us to choose from to best suit those needs.
Our district is nearly 500 square miles averaging less than 3 kids per square mile, no short routes or stop and go pickups. |
Why yes, the ORIGinal CHARGER is a Fastback |
Edited by - Fastback on 02/01/2017 08:42:23 AM |
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bwest
Administrator
United States
3820 Posts |
Posted - 02/01/2017 : 09:27:08 AM
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quote:
[i]
Our district is nearly 500 square miles averaging less than 3 kids per square mile, no short routes or stop and go pickups.
Well, now this begs to be ask; What's the definition of a short/ stop and go route for our discussion here? I too work for a district that has lots of wide open spaces with few kids average per mile. Still, most of my routes don't travel much over a mile or two before stopping again. It is a tall order for a regen to get finished in a mile or two.  |
Bryan |
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krmvcs
Advanced Member
362 Posts |
Posted - 02/01/2017 : 09:54:26 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by bwest
quote:
[i]
Our district is nearly 500 square miles averaging less than 3 kids per square mile, no short routes or stop and go pickups.
Well, now this begs to be ask; What's the definition of a short/ stop and go route for our discussion here? I too work for a district that has lots of wide open spaces with few kids average per mile. Still, most of my routes don't travel much over a mile or two before stopping again. It is a tall order for a regen to get finished in a mile or two.
thats what im sayin. if the route doesnt provide the opportunity for the system to work then youll be doing parked regens forever. and then maybe an alt-fueled bus would be a better fit. my routes are long (one gets 130 ish miles every day) and i have a diesel tank on site. so ill stick with it. thats all im sayin. (smiley face) |
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Fastback
Top Member
1500 Posts |
Posted - 02/01/2017 : 10:01:36 AM
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My routes are long enough that we have never done a parked regeneration.
BUT we are not having trouble with the particulate traps, our expense and hassles is with the SCR system; NOX sensors, DEF doser, SCR catalyst & etc.
On second thought a correction; every time the Cummins man comes and tries something else to shut off the check engine lights & stop the derating on the SCR equipped buses he does a parked regeneration to see if the fault codes come back |
Why yes, the ORIGinal CHARGER is a Fastback |
Edited by - Fastback on 02/01/2017 10:07:50 AM |
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bwest
Administrator
United States
3820 Posts |
Posted - 02/01/2017 : 10:11:10 AM
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| I too have a diesel tank on site. Plus all the comfort that I'm hearing from others. That being, the familiarity of diesel. I can normally take about anything thrown at me. If our board didn't want to go propane, I would still be dealing with the problems you guys speak of often on here and taking care of it. However, I am also not afraid to go after what I want. That is the reason I have been so bullish on propane. I think the vast majority of school bus operators can see benefits by using propane. As I said above, I think the main problem with switching over is the fear of change. I think another problem is that, until recently, no one has been leasing them. Thomas is now doing leases. |
Bryan |
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Fastback
Top Member
1500 Posts |
Posted - 02/01/2017 : 1:21:51 PM
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I also have diesel on site but will be fueling two Thomas and two Bluebird(partner district) propane buses here next fall, buses on order, LP pump not yet.
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Why yes, the ORIGinal CHARGER is a Fastback |
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International-9.0
Advanced Member
USA
459 Posts |
Posted - 02/01/2017 : 6:43:10 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by bwest
quote:
[i]
Our district is nearly 500 square miles averaging less than 3 kids per square mile, no short routes or stop and go pickups.
Well, now this begs to be ask; What's the definition of a short/ stop and go route for our discussion here? I too work for a district that has lots of wide open spaces with few kids average per mile. Still, most of my routes don't travel much over a mile or two before stopping again. It is a tall order for a regen to get finished in a mile or two.
This emissions topic intrigues me. I have limited knowledge on any of the new emissions engines. Please forgive me if I make some incorrect statements.
I always thought that the worst thing for these systems was to idle the bus for long periods (at least for DPF). The best scenario would be to run high rpms/full load down the highway to get your exhaust temps up. This would allow passive regeneration to occur naturally and would not generally require manual/parked regens.
Even with alot of stops, heavy engine acceleration up to speed would help to get the exhaust warmed up, right? As long as the stops were short and you went at least a mile in between, wouldn't that keep the exhaust temps up? Or is highway driving the only way to prevent the problems?
As far as the SCR and DEF units, what type of driving is most preferable for them?
I have heard that the next step in diesels will be to reduce greenhouse gases, since particulates and nitrous oxides are at near zero levels now. Once possibility (not sure if things would ever by implemented this way) would be to reduce or eliminate the EGR system. This would improve fuel efficiency greatly and eliminate a very troublesome system. However, this would require injecting a much greater amount of DEF. Aside from additional cost that would cancel any fuel savings, I wonder if there would be negative consequences for using higher amounts of DEF? |
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Fastback
Top Member
1500 Posts |
Posted - 02/02/2017 : 04:59:40 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by bwest
quote:
[i]
Our district is nearly 500 square miles averaging less than 3 kids per square mile, no short routes or stop and go pickups.
Well, now this begs to be ask; What's the definition of a short/ stop and go route for our discussion here? I too work for a district that has lots of wide open spaces with few kids average per mile. Still, most of my routes don't travel much over a mile or two before stopping again. It is a tall order for a regen to get finished in a mile or two.
Our district is a collection of small towns with school houses spread out among the towns, if the route don't get it done there is the 7 - 15 mile shuttle afterwards to another attendance center. |
Why yes, the ORIGinal CHARGER is a Fastback |
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Alt Fuels Vs. Diesel
