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Mark23290
Senior Member
United States
96 Posts |
 Posted - 03/26/2014 : 1:22:07 PM
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I'm in the market for a newer bus, question for all you mechanics
What is your recommendations for model years
2006-2008? Freightliner Thomas with Mercedes Engines or Blue Bird Visions with the Cat engines? Or International?
Ease to work on, longevity, and any known issues? Also does anyone know the MPG roughly? Last brakes air or hydraulic?
Thanks guys
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Fastback
Top Member
1500 Posts |
Posted - 03/26/2014 : 2:56:50 PM
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I would avoid:
Cat engines, especially the 2007 emission versions.
2007 emission Mercedes engines.
VT 365 International engines.
Hydraulic brakes.
Thomas Mercedes will likely get the best fuel mileage, maybe 7 1/2 to 9 mpg. Others, maybe 7 to 8 mpg |
Why yes, the ORIGinal CHARGER is a Fastback |
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Mark23290
Senior Member
United States
96 Posts |
Posted - 03/26/2014 : 4:13:58 PM
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Is it a particular model number to identify the 2007 emission engines?
Like one unit I seen was 2008 with a Mercedes MBE 900 I think. |
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Schoolbus56
Senior Member
United States
128 Posts |
Posted - 03/26/2014 : 4:54:44 PM
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I would have to say.. NO VT365's No CAT. No IC hyd brakes.
Although Our 2007 2008 Pre-07 Emission DT466 Powered IC's have proved pretty reliable. Very good engines I wish we had more of those instead of the VT365's that are shop queeens. |
wow. |
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bandit
Active Member
41 Posts |
Posted - 03/26/2014 : 5:22:16 PM
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| I would stay away from the cat too, we have nothing but problems with the one we have the regen is a pain in the ass. |
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Fastback
Top Member
1500 Posts |
Posted - 03/27/2014 : 04:16:04 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by Mark23290
Is it a particular model number to identify the 2007 emission engines?
Like one unit I seen was 2008 with a Mercedes MBE 900 I think.
Emission standard year likely on engine identifier label, or look under the bus and see if it just has a muffler/catalyst(pre 07 emission) or a particulate trap with electrical sensors and wiring (2007 emission and newer) |
Why yes, the ORIGinal CHARGER is a Fastback |
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bwest
Administrator
United States
3820 Posts |
Posted - 03/27/2014 : 05:26:37 AM
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I agree with staying away from IC hyd. brakes, all the other hyd. brake systems are good. Personally, I believe air brakes are for freight and we don't haul freight. I don't have any experience with post 07 emissions an anything except for IC (we stopped buying as many right about that time). I would also say stay away from the 365. I'm not overly impressed with the 2010 466s we have either but they aren't a pain like the 365 is that I have.
I have been scolded for bringing up propane on here but we are going all propane at our district (at least that's what the current board has in mine, boards do change). The experience I've had so far is that they are easy to work on and there is no emission garbage to go wrong. I'm not sure there is any used out there at this time but I'm sure there has to be a few coming up shortly. This may be too big of a jump to make for an operation like yours though. Of course I don't know anything about your operation and that would have to be a decision you'd have to make. |
Bryan |
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Fastback
Top Member
1500 Posts |
Posted - 03/27/2014 : 05:46:55 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by bwest
, I believe air brakes are for freight and we don't haul freight.
Not sure about other states, but in Iowa, the below applies;
(5)An air brake system is required on every chassis meeting one or more of the following:1.Wheelbase equal to or greater than 274 inches.
2.Designed seating capacity rating greater than 66 passengers. Designed seating capacity, also known as manufacturer’s seating capacity, is the actual or theoretical passenger capacity of the vehicle if it were constructed with the maximum number of seating positions.
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Why yes, the ORIGinal CHARGER is a Fastback |
Edited by - Fastback on 03/27/2014 06:15:50 AM |
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Mark23290
Senior Member
United States
96 Posts |
Posted - 04/01/2014 : 1:39:59 PM
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So to narrow it down and say a Freightliner Thomas 2008 Models with Cat C-7 or a Merecedes Engine? Each with over 100k miles on it.
Do you think any of these would make a good 8 to 10 years? Putting on a average mileage of 12-15K per year.
Thanks for all your guys opinions
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Fastback
Top Member
1500 Posts |
Posted - 04/01/2014 : 2:02:19 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by Mark23290
So to narrow it down and say a Freightliner Thomas 2008 Models with Cat C-7 or a Merecedes Engine? Each with over 100k miles on it.
Do you think any of these would make a good 8 to 10 years? Putting on a average mileage of 12-15K per year.
Thanks for all your guys opinions
Given that choice, I would go with the Mercedes. Only way I would do the Cat is if it did not have a particulate trap and the Mercedes did. Neither engine in 2007 emission form(with trap/DPF)had a great reputation.
Can't predict the future but our Mercedes has been great and a MPG top performer. |
Why yes, the ORIGinal CHARGER is a Fastback |
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tigger2
Advanced Member
USA
470 Posts |
Posted - 04/02/2014 : 05:24:40 AM
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| Freightliner did not put the 07 emission Cat engines in their units. If it's a 08 unit it was most likly a pre-ordered 06 Cat engine, we have 6 of those. They are working out with some high pressure oil pump and injector issues, possibly related to some issues with an oil company we replaced. I personaly would pass on the Mercedes engine the 07's had egr,heat(lack of) and head problems. |
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bwest
Administrator
United States
3820 Posts |
Posted - 04/02/2014 : 09:28:30 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by tigger2
Freightliner did not put the 07 emission Cat engines in their units. If it's a 08 unit it was most likly a pre-ordered 06 Cat engine, we have 6 of those. They are working out with some high pressure oil pump and injector issues, possibly related to some issues with an oil company we replaced. I personaly would pass on the Mercedes engine the 07's had egr,heat(lack of) and head problems.
I agree, I would go with the Cat. I have two '04 Thomas FS65s with the Cat 3126. One has 244k on it and still running strong. If you do have to OH one there are lots of options. I don't know a thing about the MB engines so this would be going with what I know. 
As for the air brakes, I don't understand why a state would mandate them on a school bus. You're GVW is going to be no more than 35K (that's if you have a 71 passenger with 71 200 pound high school students on it. when is that going to happen?) but you're more likely going to have a GVW of around 26k to 28k on an everyday route. I'd say Bendix has a lobbyist at your state house. I just love this country.  |
Bryan |
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Fastback
Top Member
1500 Posts |
Posted - 04/02/2014 : 11:31:59 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by bwest
As for the air brakes, I don't understand why a state would mandate them on a school bus. You're GVW is going to be no more than 35K (that's if you have a 71 passenger with 71 200 pound high school students on it. when is that going to happen?) but you're more likely going to have a GVW of around 26k to 28k on an everyday route. I'd say Bendix has a lobbyist at your state house. I just love this country.
Different strokes for different folks I guess.
Outside of for CDL licensing purposes, I don't understand why anyone would not want air brakes.
We order them on buses small enough (42,53,65 passenger) to not require them, goal is an all air brake fleet. |
Why yes, the ORIGinal CHARGER is a Fastback |
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slippert
Top Member
USA
630 Posts |
Posted - 04/02/2014 : 12:35:49 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by Fastback
Different strokes for different folks I guess.
Outside of for CDL licensing purposes, I don't understand why anyone would not want air brakes.
We order them on buses small enough (42,53,65 passenger) to not require them, goal is an all air brake fleet.
I agree!!! I wouldn't have anything but air brakes...here they require less frequent repairs, than any hydraulic system we ever had..! less expensive to repair... if s-cams are kept greased and moisture out of air system...basically shoes and drums cost me about 300-350$... any time I spent just 300 or less on a hydraulic setup ..I was back in it the next week spending that much again on parts that looked ok ....but caliper seized or abs light was on due to tone ring issues, line blew out,,etc... so it normally cost about 800-1000 to do them and not have to repeatedly work on them..
I get typically(dependent on driver)get 80,000 to 120,000 out of a set of air shoes and drums on special needs buses...I would have had a hydraulic setup apart 4 times in same amount of miles.
So IMO air brakes are the way to go...pros... easier to work on, i can do a complete break job front and rear in less than 3 hours with checking bearings and replacing seals, easier to road repair if needed, less costly, better breaking...etc
Con : if your not familiar with them they can be intimidating |
Edited by - slippert on 04/02/2014 12:44:56 PM |
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bwest
Administrator
United States
3820 Posts |
Posted - 04/03/2014 : 06:02:42 AM
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| Probably has a lot to do with the terrain you're running on the miles between pad change. Pretty much all flat here. I can do a complete brake job (calipers & pads on all four corners) around the 450 mark. I seldom have to change calipers on the newer units (several on the old Chevy chassis). The time is greatly reduced on pad change on the newer units too. If a guy was really pushing to get it out the door I would say and hour or less for all four corners of pads only. |
Bryan |
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second.flood
Top Member
USA
640 Posts |
Posted - 04/03/2014 : 09:50:24 AM
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Air brakes only here.
Beyond me why anyone would get hydraulic brakes on purpose:)
My buses are usually traded in with the original front brakes and one rebuild in the rear.
15x4 front and 16.5x7 rear.
All the best mechanics that I know use air brakes exclusively.
Air brakes, diesel and air ride suspension all are preferable.
The only hydraulic school buses around here also have leaf springs.... in other words they cheaped out.
Air brakes are the safest and most cost effective braking system throughout the life (15+years) of a bus.
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bwest
Administrator
United States
3820 Posts |
Posted - 04/03/2014 : 09:59:34 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by second.flood
Air brakes only here.
Beyond me why anyone would get hydraulic brakes on purpose:)
My buses are usually traded in with the original front brakes and one rebuild in the rear.
15x4 front and 16.5x7 rear.
All the best mechanics that I know use air brakes exclusively.
Air brakes, diesel and air ride suspension all are preferable.
The only hydraulic school buses around here also have leaf springs.... in other words they cheaped out.
Air brakes are the safest and most cost effective braking system throughout the life (15+years) of a bus.
All the best mechanics here prefer hydraulic. ROTFLOL
There is nothing wrong with either system, per se, or one or the other would have had lots of accidents attributed to it and outlawed by now. |
Bryan |
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BJ Henderson
Advanced Member
USA
280 Posts |
Posted - 04/03/2014 : 10:08:12 AM
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We have 2 Thomas 2005 saftey liners the old body style, with CAT engines and the allison trans. These have been the most reliable buses I've ever seen. Of course they do not have DPF on them at all.
We also have some internationals with DT466E and VT365s. Stay away from the DT365 whatever you do! We have T444E in a Thomas and it is a decent engine but it is 1999. The DT466E engines are pretty decent, but leak oil. The older ones without EGR seem to be more reliable.
It depends on capacity and where you will be operating as others have pointed out. I would also look at other options as to gas burners or propane powered, if I could go that route. I would opt for a GM before a Ford for many reasons.
I would always look for air brakes, they are much safer #1 and #2 they can be a lot less expensive especially if you are looking at ABS valves and motors that will one day need service.
I like international's service info (but could be more user friendly) we have had great service for our dealer with great support in warranty service and parts service. We have had great support from our Thomas dealer as well.
I would look over all the wear points if looking at a used bus, or get a decent mechanic to do so if you need to. If looking at a new bus, I would consider service and options. I would opt for a Cummins engine if new.
Stay away from buses that come from states where they use corrosive chemicals if possible. They never are a good deal as we have got stuck with used ones like that. |
CMTT,CMAT,CMBT |
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Fastback
Top Member
1500 Posts |
Posted - 04/03/2014 : 11:39:47 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by second.flood
Beyond me why anyone would get hydraulic brakes on purpose:)
Exactly!!
I have never had a driver accidently drive with the parking brake on in an air brake bus.
I have been at this bus gig for 35+ years now, the first half of that I sang the praises of hydraulic brakes also. So I know its possible to convert a hydraulic brake fan to air brakes but I doubt you will get an air brake fan to switch to hyd.
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Why yes, the ORIGinal CHARGER is a Fastback |
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second.flood
Top Member
USA
640 Posts |
Posted - 04/03/2014 : 2:38:32 PM
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Okay.... every mechanic I know that either writes specs or has serious input requests air brakes.
Are juicy brakes really prevalent in your area bwest?
quote:
Originally posted by bwest
quote:
Originally posted by second.flood
Air brakes only here.
Beyond me why anyone would get hydraulic brakes on purpose:)
My buses are usually traded in with the original front brakes and one rebuild in the rear.
15x4 front and 16.5x7 rear.
All the best mechanics that I know use air brakes exclusively.
Air brakes, diesel and air ride suspension all are preferable.
The only hydraulic school buses around here also have leaf springs.... in other words they cheaped out.
Air brakes are the safest and most cost effective braking system throughout the life (15+years) of a bus.
All the best mechanics here prefer hydraulic. ROTFLOL
There is nothing wrong with either system, per se, or one or the other would have had lots of accidents attributed to it and outlawed by now.
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Cal Mc
Advanced Member
303 Posts |
Posted - 04/03/2014 : 9:01:37 PM
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| We have found that with a good exhaust or engine brake and a little training, our brake repair costs are minimal. Unless you are operating in mountainous terrain hydraulic brakes are simple and will safely serve the purpose. |
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second.flood
Top Member
USA
640 Posts |
Posted - 04/04/2014 : 07:44:30 AM
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Bwest,
How do you spec your hydraulic units? SS brake lines? I'm curious how these new systems hold up to corrosion issues.
How often do you have to flush/change brake fluid?
Thanks |
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BJ Henderson
Advanced Member
USA
280 Posts |
Posted - 04/04/2014 : 09:47:40 AM
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An incident we recently had was a driver ignored the alternator light and output, so was driving on battery power for one afternoon and the next morning. When the battery power dropped to about 8 to 9 volts, the hydraulic brake actuator locked up the brakes on wet pavement and spun the bus around in an intersection.
This is on a SAHR Wabco brake system on international BE200 bus. Not safe by any standard in my opinion simply because of all the safety featured incorporated into the system, a cable is the final weak link in the park brake.
Way to many reasons to buy airbrakes over hydraulic.
I do have to say that as far as maintenance on the brake system (BE200s) the Wabco has been a decent system as far as what we have actually had to do to them that was broken. Now, they did have issues of programing and we did have one valve body replaced under warranty. Wabco also extended the warranty once they discovered they had problems. All that being said, I still do not see this as being the safest way to carry school kids. |
CMTT,CMAT,CMBT |
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bwest
Administrator
United States
3820 Posts |
Posted - 04/04/2014 : 2:06:30 PM
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| BJ, I appreciate your position on this. So I'm saying this with all due respect here. Are you talking about the park brake locking up? If so, I don't have that problem with the Blue Birds I run because their system isn't set up like that. I have never understood why IC did it that way. To each his own I guess. Have a great weekend! |
Bryan |
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C.HARDY
Advanced Member
354 Posts |
Posted - 05/26/2014 : 1:42:54 PM
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| I got your back Bryan I would be just satisfied if all of my buses were 4 wheel disc brakes. The way we operate they do just fine and I don't have a lot of trouble with them at all. My air brake buses aren't bad but don't stop like a disc brake |
"Hardybusman" |
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In the market for another bus need opinions.
