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Newbus
Senior Member
119 Posts |
 Posted - 02/10/2002 : 1:54:17 PM
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I've been seeing a lot of 5.9L Cummins in buses lately but I've never heard anybody here mention much about them. Is this a good bus engine? Seems kinda small for a bus.
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B. Busguy33
Top Member
USA
3444 Posts |
Posted - 02/10/2002 : 2:07:57 PM
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I believe there are some posts elsewhere in this Forum that is related to this topic. You may be inclined to search for them.
The Cummins 5.9 liter is the same diesel engine that is used in the Dodge Ram pick-up truck. (Just like the Ford 7.3 liter PSD shares components with the International T444E, which is also a 7.3 liter V-8 diesel.)
In my opinion, the 5.9 liter Cummins diesel is too small for a full-size school bus. I also think that the T444E is too small for a full-size school bus as well. Although, horsepower ratings on the Cummins 5.9 liter range all the way up to 275 horsepower.
Bob
(B. Busguy33)
"Blue Bird: Always flyin' high above the rest... 
Blue Bird: One of America's Best!!!  " |
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thomasvista2012
Top Member
USA
747 Posts |
Posted - 02/10/2002 : 6:39:07 PM
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Bob pretty much summed the story up on the 5.9L Cummins. Our district has over 200 of them on 1993 Thomas/Ford chassis, and we are really unhappy with them. The engines are generally weak and underpowered for a school bus.
The T444E is NOT in any way comparable to a 5.9L Bob, don't even tell me that it does not have a lot of power because they run just fine in each of the 860 Thomas Vistas we have with the T444E in it. They are solid built and have adequate power for our buses. The DT466 is suited for more demanding driving conditions, that's all.
If it's big and yellow, then it's a school bus!
http://www.geocities.com/jasonsbuspage |
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B. Busguy33
Top Member
USA
3444 Posts |
Posted - 02/10/2002 : 6:48:49 PM
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I can see where you are coming from Jason. I just think the 444 is better suited in a smaller bus or a pick-up truck, rather than a full-size bus. The 444 and 466 have the same horsepower ratings. The 466 is offered in a high-torque model though. In addition, the 444 now comes with a wastegate turbocharger to help with performance.
The other two differences are that the 466 is an inline-six and is also a wet-sleeve diesel engine. That's basically it. If I were to spec a full-size bus, I would personally go with a 466.
Bob
(B. Busguy33)
"Blue Bird: Always flyin' high above the rest...
Blue Bird: One of America's Best!!! " |
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FireTruckWrench
Active Member
USA
15 Posts |
Posted - 02/10/2002 : 9:44:31 PM
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Hey guys, The 5.9 does not belong in anything bigger than a pickup truck, and even there, it has issues. It has not faired well in anything bigger than that. I have worked on TOO many F-series trucks with 120,000 miles on them and one worn out motor.
The T444E IS the Powerstroke BTW, down to the bolts on the rocker covers. IH just sells 80 percent of them to Ford, thats all.
Everyone here who says the 444 is less powerful than the 5.9 is not looking at the full picture. What is the axle ratio? what is the tire size? is there an old school AT-545 bolted to the back? These fully electronic engines have no buisness having an AT or MT bolted to them. I have seen 10 plus 444's with over 500,000 miles on them,(original build) but have yet to see a 5.9 with those same statistics. It was desinged to be a truck engine, not a little truck engine and shoved into a bus. IH learned that lesson 20 years ago on the old 345. You all know the drill, the 77 Loadstar with the 345 and a 5 and 2, trying to drag around 30,000 Lbs all day, and it did amazingly well, compared to the same setup with a 330 Ford or 350 Chevy!
The choice between a 466 and the 444 all comes down to how long you keep your units. If you plan to hang on to them untill the frame bends, get the 466. if you turn them over with 275,000 on the clock, save the 4000 bucks and spec out a 444. ( for now) It has to say something when Cummins is getting similar ratiings with 1.4 less liters of displacement.
Does'nt it irritate you when the wife/kids/girlfriend takes out the trash and does not put a bag in the can? Just like Cummins not putting liners in a 5.9 and compare it on paper to a 466.
Maybe I have read too many posts tonight bashing 444's I am not a argumentative person, but thank you all for letting me get this off my chest!
Have a great day.
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Newbus
Senior Member
119 Posts |
Posted - 02/10/2002 : 10:01:45 PM
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Okay everybody back to their respective corners until the end of the count! So the rap on the 5.9 is that it is underpowered for a bus? Can't blame that on the engine I guess. Other than that I've never heard any serious criticism of the engine or is there more? What is intriquing to me is why did they put it in so many buses and why did people order so many of them? I've seen tons of Bluebirds with the 5.9. That's wierd to me but of course we've all seen stranger things happen. Diesel technology gets in the blood eh? Thanks for taking the time to respond. I saw two buses today. A 35' 91 Amtrans transit and a 12 row Bluebird transit and both had Cummins 5.9L. I'm thinkin' why would International put a Cummins in one of their buses or was that before International owned Amtrans?
Newbus
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FireTruckWrench
Active Member
USA
15 Posts |
Posted - 02/10/2002 : 10:16:22 PM
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quote:
Okay everybody back to their respective corners until the end of the count! So the rap on the 5.9 is that it is underpowered for a bus? Can't blame that on the engine I guess. Other than that I've never heard any serious criticism of the engine or is there more? What is intriquing to me is why did they put it in so many buses and why did people order so many of them? I've seen tons of Bluebirds with the 5.9. That's wierd to me but of course we've all seen stranger things happen. Diesel technology gets in the blood eh? Thanks for taking the time to respond. I saw two buses today. A 35' 91 Amtrans transit and a 12 row Bluebird transit and both had Cummins 5.9L. I'm thinkin' why would International put a Cummins in one of their buses or was that before International owned Amtrans?
Newbus
The answer is COST. The 5.9 is much cheaper than a 444. And yes, That was before AM-Tran and IH were together. Another interesting note is that IH is dropping Cummins from much of their heavy duty lineup due to Cummins inability to provide a reliable product. Cummins has a long road ahead of them to put them back in the glory days of the Big Cam III. The last reliable engine they made was the N-14, and it is being dropped due to emissions. By reliable, I mean no majors before 300,000, or 5,000 hrs.
I have not had a new Cummins product delivered that has not had to go back to the dealer before 150 hrs with some sort of major engine problem, that required a tear down or head removal. That disappointed me greatly, as I grew up with the Cummins product, and believed in it. Myself and many other die hard 80's Cummins guys are slowly finding themselves not so happy anymore, and finding the CAT C-10, C-12 and IH 466/530 filling the medium duty void they left us. |
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Thomasbus24
Administrator
USA
4547 Posts |
Posted - 02/11/2002 : 1:36:16 PM
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We run 3 of the 5.9's in Thomas MVP-EF 72 passenger buses. They have been a royal pain from the get-go. They just don't have the power they need to move the bus. Also we have major problems with the way the air compressor is mounted, it tends to crack the engine front covers.
One more year under warranty, then they are our problem 
Yes, that's my bus.
No, you can't drive it. |
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BlueBird44
Top Member
USA
1639 Posts |
Posted - 02/11/2002 : 3:52:25 PM
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The bus I would like to buy is a 89 TC2000 Blue Bird. It has a 5.9 Cummins that was just put in. A 5.9 was orignally put in there. They really didn't have much problems with it when it was new but when it got older they had more that is why they put a new one in.
 BlueBird44- Blue Bird will always make it back to the nest! |
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Newbus
Senior Member
119 Posts |
Posted - 02/11/2002 : 4:09:57 PM
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Well I guess I got my answer about the 5.9 Cummins. Appreciate y'all takin' the time to post. Fire Truck Wrench anytime you wanna unload about diesel technology on this forum I'll be more than willing to listen. I cannot tell you how much I value the insight of the folks that frequent these forums. What older Cummins are you talking about that you said you liked and what is a Cat C10, C12? I can see why International is wanting to produce thier own complete bus. It seems with the reputation that thier chassis' have developed over the years, if they got a great body to go with them they would be a force to be reckoned with. I have never heard anyone disparage a DT466 here. Are you saying the that IT makes the Powerstroke for Ford and they put their name on it? I've heard a lot of people say they love the Powerstroke in thier pickups. So the Powerstroke is really an International T444? I like Crown buses. what do you think of the ole 220 cummins?
Bluebird 44 maybe you should rethink that purchase..I know I would.
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BlueBird44
Top Member
USA
1639 Posts |
Posted - 02/11/2002 : 4:23:11 PM
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She my old bus from Elementry I really want her. I got flat land here no hills to climb she did fine for a regular route for 12 years she'll do find subbing and maybe a few trips! SHE HAS A/C the only bus we ever had with it.
BlueBird44- Blue Bird will always make it back to the nest! |
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autonerd
Active Member
34 Posts |
Posted - 02/11/2002 : 4:59:35 PM
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I have a Cummins 220 in my Gillig. What a beast! It's big but it really pulls - most hills that cause my Detroit 6v71-powered transit bus (230HP, similar weight) to slow down pass unnoticed under the Gillig's wheels - just stand on the throttle and she doesn't lose an ounce of speed. Once I've had to downshift, and the bus pulled the hill at max revs in 4th.
That said, she's a light bus (no seats right now) and only geared for 55, but I'm hoping not to lose too much climbing power when I gear up for 68 or 70 MPH.
By the way, the NHH220 is about 12.1 liters and puts out 220 HP and 606 ft-lbs of torque. So you can see that technology has come a long way in 35 years. :)
Someone told me to watch out for the heads losening up and "walking". When they went to the NHH250, they changed the configuration of the head bolts (either more smaller bolts or fewer bigger ones, I cannot remember). So far this hasn't been a cause for concern, and according to the maintenance records for the bus the head bolts haven't needed attention since the rebuild 14,000 miles ago.
One thing about my bus, it's never in a hurry esp. at low speeds - but that's more a function of big gear splits between 1st, 2nd and 3rd. I'm going to replace the air filter on the bus this evening, hopefully that will make a difference.
If I had my pick, I might go for an 855 cid with a turbo (262 HP)... but I don't plan to make any changes to teh 220, it seems to get the job done just fine. And it sounds like a big rig!
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Buskid
Top Member
USA
3368 Posts |
Posted - 02/11/2002 : 6:21:06 PM
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quote:
If I had my pick, I might go for an 855 cid with a turbo (262 HP)... but I don't plan to make any changes to teh 220, it seems to get the job done just fine. And it sounds like a big rig!
The 262 HP Cummins is nice, but you should drive our two Crowns at work with the 300 HP Cummins in them. Boy, do they ever move! (One has a 5-spd. w/ Jake Brake, the other is a 4-spd. automatic.)
I had the one with the 4-spd. automatic assigned to me for a while when my regular bus was being used for training. It was okay, but I like my slow 671 Detroit Diesel still. 
I think that the district I used to go to school in had a couple Blue Bird All American REs with the Cummins 5.9s in them. I don't remember them being too slow, but I never really paid much attention to them either. I've pretty much heard what everyone else here is saying about them - they aren't enough to move a big bus.
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Buskid
Top Member
USA
3368 Posts |
Posted - 02/11/2002 : 6:23:56 PM
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quote:
If I had my pick, I might go for an 855 cid with a turbo (262 HP)... but I don't plan to make any changes to teh 220, it seems to get the job done just fine. And it sounds like a big rig!
Oh, and now that I think about it - a 262 HP Cummins would be a 220 with a turbo. A 855 cid Cummins without a turbo would have 250 HP, and with a turbo, it would have anything from 290 HP all the way up to 350 HP (or more, in some cases).
My first 1969 Crown had a 262 HP Cummins in it - 743 cid of engine. I've never seen a 855 cid Cummins with only 262 HP before.
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B. Busguy33
Top Member
USA
3444 Posts |
Posted - 02/11/2002 : 6:58:04 PM
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quote:
Maybe I have read too many posts tonight bashing 444's I am not a argumentative person, but thank you all for letting me get this off my chest!
Hi FireTruckWrench,
I assume you are talking about me when you refer to the "bashing of the T444E's." I am also not an argumentative person, but if you go back and read my post carefully, you will see that in my opinion I think the 466 is better suited for full-size school bus applications.
This goes for Jason as well. I was in no way "bashing" a T444E. I understand a lot of buses have them and they get the job done. I am a big, big fan of ALL International products and I really stand behind them a lot. If you read my posts you will see that my opinion leans towards the 466 more than a 444. Again, I am not bashing a 444.
I am also not trying to sound like a jerk, because I'm usually not. I am just trying to clarify to the both of you that I was just expressing my opinion on which engine I think is best suited for the International school bus chassis. I was not bashing over the use of the 444 in a school bus.
No hard feelings, I just hope we understand each other better now.
Bob
(B. Busguy33)
"Blue Bird: Always flyin' high above the rest...
Blue Bird: One of America's Best!!! " |
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autonerd
Active Member
34 Posts |
Posted - 02/12/2002 : 12:08:22 PM
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Well then, I guess I'm one step closer to a 262 than I thought I was - I already have the engine!
gosh, and i was thining that 12hp wasn't much of a gain for adding a turbo to an 855... 42 HP on a 743, that's more like it!
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Newbus
Senior Member
119 Posts |
Posted - 02/12/2002 : 3:56:43 PM
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While we are on the subject of Crown engines, I saw an 88 Crown 78 pax, 671, automatic, air seat. I loved it. Buskid....are you sure that the headroom of later Crowns is not higher than earlier ones? I would swear this bus had a few inches extra headroom compared to that 74. I'm 6'2" and there was three to four inches room above my head in that 88.
Newbus
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Buskid
Top Member
USA
3368 Posts |
Posted - 02/12/2002 : 5:09:19 PM
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quote:
While we are on the subject of Crown engines, I saw an 88 Crown 78 pax, 671, automatic, air seat. I loved it. Buskid....are you sure that the headroom of later Crowns is not higher than earlier ones? I would swear this bus had a few inches extra headroom compared to that 74. I'm 6'2" and there was three to four inches room above my head in that 88.
I'm quite sure that it didn't change that much. But I will look. I usually drive a 1988 Crown at work, so I'll check it out tomorrow if I get a chance and remember to. The headroom in my 1969 Crown is over 6', I know that much. Whose Crown did you see?
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Newbus
Senior Member
119 Posts |
Posted - 02/12/2002 : 9:42:21 PM
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I saw it heading to the entrance of Robb Field. I think it said something like Goodall on it but not sure. It is owned by a company called Coach USA which subcontracts for San Diego Unified. I talked to the driver. He let me sit behind the wheel! The engine was running and everything! I've got to have one of those air ride seats. It was a great seat! It had a couple of pretty bad looking rust spots over the drivers window on both sides. That was lame. The rest of the body didn't have a spot on it. The obviously did not keep up with the finish. When you spot the least bit of trouble on the body you have to address it immediately. Many a rust hole started as a rock chip. As far as the headroom goes, it wasn't dramatically different but it seemed noticeably different to me. Perhaps as much as two or three inches but that could just be a perceptual thing. I kind of liked the auto in it but I haven't driven a bus so I don't know if it's more fun to drive the stick or not. I assume it is but I wouldn't want to drive a stick in say a place like Seattle. Hurry up and stop.
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Buskid
Top Member
USA
3368 Posts |
Posted - 02/12/2002 : 10:41:36 PM
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quote:
I saw it heading to the entrance of Robb Field. I think it said something like Goodall on it but not sure. It is owned by a company called Coach USA which subcontracts for San Diego Unified. I talked to the driver. He let me sit behind the wheel! The engine was running and everything! I've got to have one of those air ride seats. It was a great seat! It had a couple of pretty bad looking rust spots over the drivers window on both sides. That was lame. The rest of the body didn't have a spot on it. The obviously did not keep up with the finish. When you spot the least bit of trouble on the body you have to address it immediately. Many a rust hole started as a rock chip. As far as the headroom goes, it wasn't dramatically different but it seemed noticeably different to me. Perhaps as much as two or three inches but that could just be a perceptual thing. I kind of liked the auto in it but I haven't driven a bus so I don't know if it's more fun to drive the stick or not. I assume it is but I wouldn't want to drive a stick in say a place like Seattle. Hurry up and stop.
That would be funny if the bus you saw was really from Goodall's. That's who six of our buses (three 1988 Crowns, three 1990 Crowns) used to belong to, including the bus that I drive now. Small world, huh?
I have the El Dorado air seat in # 23. I really like it, but there's nothing wrong with the plain old American Seating driver's seats either.
The automatic is also a nice bonus for lazy people like me, LOL. Actually, I shouldn't say that since I just upgraded to the 10-spd. on Monday. I guess I better enjoy the automatic while I still have it.
But anyway, you know that I'd rather have a 10-spd. than a 5-spd. if at all possible. I think it's more fun. Or maybe I'm just weird. Oh well.
'nuff out of me. I'll try to remember to measure the inside of # 23 tomorrow for you.
G'night. 
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MamaLoca
Advanced Member
USA
400 Posts |
Posted - 02/13/2002 : 09:41:14 AM
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AHHHHHHHHHH!
So today I get my new Freightliner with, you guessed it a Cummins 5.9L straight 6!!!
What's worse is the mechanic said it would preform better, yes he said better, than the '95 Vista POS I drive now.
And it's such a pretty new bus.
Smile, it makes people wonder what you're up to.
http://www.canandaiguaschools.org/bus/ |
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MamaLoca
Advanced Member
USA
400 Posts |
Posted - 02/13/2002 : 09:42:32 AM
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AHHHHHHHHHH!
So today I get my new Freightliner with, you guessed it a Cummins 5.9L straight 6!!!
What's worse is the mechanic said it would preform better, yes he said better, than the '95 Vista POS I drive now.
And it's such a pretty new bus.
Smile, it makes people wonder what you're up to.
http://www.canandaiguaschools.org/bus/ |
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Thomasbus24
Administrator
USA
4547 Posts |
Posted - 02/14/2002 : 1:45:42 PM
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Congrats Mamaloca! Freightliners are a nice bus overall, but I still love my 95 International!
Vista-----I'm so sorry. We have 3 of those 'things' and I believe they were a mechanic's nightmare forged into reality by the devil himself! (sorry for those who like em, I just spent all day TRYING to work on one and needed to vent!)
Yes, that's my bus.
No, you can't drive it. |
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FireTruckWrench
Active Member
USA
15 Posts |
Posted - 02/17/2002 : 9:53:09 PM
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quote:
[quote]Maybe I have read too many posts tonight bashing 444's I am not a argumentative person, but thank you all for letting me get this off my chest!
Hi FireTruckWrench,
I assume you are talking about me when you refer to the "bashing of the T444E's." I am also not an argumentative person, but if you go back and read my post carefully, you will see that in my opinion I think the 466 is better suited for full-size school bus applications.
This goes for Jason as well. I was in no way "bashing" a T444E. I understand a lot of buses have them and they get the job done. I am a big, big fan of ALL International products and I really stand behind them a lot. If you read my posts you will see that my opinion leans towards the 466 more than a 444. Again, I am not bashing a 444.
I am also not trying to sound like a jerk, because I'm usually not. I am just trying to clarify to the both of you that I was just expressing my opinion on which engine I think is best suited for the International school bus chassis. I was not bashing over the use of the 444 in a school bus.
No hard feelings, I just hope we understand each other better now.
Bob
(B. Busguy33)
Bob, None at all! I was not referring to you specifically. I must have read a 100 posts that night in all the forums, and that all piled on top of a P pump governor problem on an old 8.3L that day capped it off. I just let the competitive fire get a little to hot sometimes! I eat, sleep, and breathe the IH product, and sometimes get defensive.
I just hate to see aomeone make a choice of engine due to the fact that they have 2 of them and they are fine. They then become the greatest product in the world. I worked at a shop that took in every leaking piece of garbage that rolled down the freeway, to some of the cleanest, nicest trucks on the road, and saw what worked and what did not. I base all my opinions on experience and long term multiple unit analysis. Not beacuse I had one and it was wonderful. Chrysler made at least ONE Volare that would start in the winter, that did not make them ALL good. :-) That is what started that.
Have a great day, and take it easy! |
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FireTruckWrench
Active Member
USA
15 Posts |
Posted - 02/17/2002 : 10:07:53 PM
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[. What older Cummins are you talking about that you said you liked and what is a Cat C10, C12?Are you saying the that IT makes the Powerstroke for Ford and they put their name on it? I've heard a lot of people say they love the Powerstroke in thier pickups. So the Powerstroke is really an International T444? .
[/quote]
Yes sir, the Powerstroke is made by IH for Ford, they take 80 percent of them off the line and they go to Ford. ( they actually have their own plant now) It is the EXACT same engine that is in the busses.
The C-10 and C-12 are Cat's newer Medium Heavy Duty engines that compare with the others from Cummins and IH. The C-10 really is the only one that is close to an ISC or a 530. They have been doing much better than the ISC has.
The NTC BigCam engines are my alltime favorites. That is an engine that is still in use all over the world that is cheap to fix and easy to maintiain. (any before low flow or top-stops!) Cummins was top dog on the road during those days.
Have a great week. |
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Newbus
Senior Member
119 Posts |
Posted - 02/18/2002 : 06:50:33 AM
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Wow a T444 in a Ford pickup! That was a good idea! No wonder people have said they like them so much. I've never heard of NTC big cam cummins. I've just heard of the cummins in Crown buses. The 220 and 250. And the ISC, ISB and, of course, the 5.9L.
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B. Busguy33
Top Member
USA
3444 Posts |
Posted - 02/18/2002 : 09:06:31 AM
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quote:
I eat, sleep, and breathe the IH product, and sometimes get defensive.
Hi FireTruckWrench,
The T444E's seem to work for a lot of people. Most of the International buses that I see have the T444E in them. They must get the job done, otherwise no one would buy them!
I am glad we understand each other now. Thanks for the reply. I myself also stand behind all of International's products. I am especially interested in their school buses, medium-duty trucks, and their diesel engines. Overall, I think they are a great company that make outstanding products.
Bob
(B. Busguy33)
"Blue Bird: Always flyin' high above the rest...
Blue Bird: One of America's Best!!! " |
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Shawn Weaser
New Member
USA
7 Posts |
Posted - 03/10/2002 : 4:43:32 PM
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I am replieing to this forum because I am disappointed when I read all this negatvity about the 5.9 cummins.I am the shop foreman for a fleet of 153 vehicles-68 of which are Cummins-19 ISB,21 C'S,AND 23 MECHANICAL B's.These engines will not die.We have a lot of B cummins just under 300,000 miles and running hard.Usually every time we have a no power complaint it is because the throttle isn't working 100% or the lift or injection pump needs work.We have had 2 b engine failures,1 due to a failed oil filter and the other was so overheated it melted a piston.We had a few front covers fail at the air compressor but that was due to the OEM not properly supporting the rear end of the air compressor.These engines take a licken and keep on ticken.I personally won't buy anything else.I have heard a lot about the competition as well such as the T444E's having cracked head problems and the Cat 3126's leaking oil.Cummins-Run Hard-Dream Big!!!!!
CDSDMECH87 |
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jimbo20
Senior Member
USA
159 Posts |
Posted - 03/11/2002 : 2:58:46 PM
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OK WE HAVE QUITE A FEW 92-FORD'S WITH A 5.9 CUMMINGS. MY OPINION AS A MECHANIC IS THAT SHE WON'T GET YOU ANY TROPHYS IN THE QUARTER MILE, BUT AS A GOOD RELIABLE SCHOOL BUS WITH NO OIL LEAKS AND ADEQUATE HP.IF YOU ADVANCE THE TIMMING 1 DEG AND RUN 11R'S ON IT YOU WILL BE HAPPY
JIMBO
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FireTruckWrench
Active Member
USA
15 Posts |
Posted - 03/17/2002 : 7:57:34 PM
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Shawn, The Cummins product has been experiencing many problems in the field. I read a post here where a gentleman said "When Cummins changes an engine, I duck" He is correct. Everytime they change something, it goes right in the toilet. I know of a fleet that bought 500 M-11s, and 500 of them failed due to hammered in valve seats. That is AWFUL. The 5.9 has a terrible repair record, and the B-50 life does not come close to a 444 or a 466.
The 5.9 does have a place, but not in something that grosses over 20,000 pounds. It will not live, we have jerked too many of them out. And yes, the 444 has had it's problems, but heads are not one of them. The difference is IH FIXES them, Cummins just puts a new badge on the same block. ( same girl, different party dress)
Stop in at any high volume heavy diesel shop that has been in buisness for over 20 yrs, and they will tell you the same thing, about the whole line-up. It disappoints me too, I grew up on the Cummins product. They have really let me down.
Have a good day.
"If you have it, it came on a truck. Have you hugged a Diesel Mechanic today? |
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Topic |
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Cummins 5.9L: Is this a good bus engine?
