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 2007-2009 MAXXFORCE 7 oil/fuel dilution
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sambrutay
Advanced Member

United States
235 Posts

Posted - 10/05/2012 :  02:04:27 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Wow, looking thru the forum and find nobody complaining about the Maxx 7
growing oil anymore? Your problem fixed or are you just tired of
complaining? I know there's a new AFC ECM flash and burn out, and hopefully
it will remedy the problem but we are putting more diesel in the crank case
than ever. Since the beginning of the new school year we are seeing buses 8
to 10 quarts over full. This is getting ridiculous. We had 90 units go out
of warranty this summer and we have been putting fuel in the crank case
since day one. What a crock. These should be warranted for another 5 years
minimum. Or lemon law this junk. Apparently IC should call it quits on theV8
platform. Just my opinion.

Bassman
Top Member

USA
514 Posts

Posted - 10/05/2012 :  04:26:13 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
We are still dealing with it on 2007 emissions MaxxForce DT. Most have 150,000 to 180,000 miles on them. We have gotten all our DPF's cleaned using the FSX machine and brought down to within specs (Most under warranty but got so tired of going through the ridiculous warranty 3 week parade we had some done ourselves). But once I know the DPF's are cleaned out and back within spec, if I have a reoccurance, I have my guys drop the DOC and blow it out completely (backwards) and eliminate the surface plugging and my problem with smoking and overfilling with oil (and fumes inside the bus choking the driver and attendant) goes away again for a while. I am 100% convinced that the problem is related to "in cyl" dosing design and when excessive exhaust restriction is present, the symptoms develop as a result of too frequent and inefficient regens combined with excessive exhaust back pressure. I have spoken with many IH people and still no iKnow bulletins or support on the problem on MaxxForce DT after years of trying. There seems to be only one guy on tech central that is even remotely close to comprehending the issue (either that or the guys are totally bound up by corporate troubleshooting procedures which doesn't fix the problem and spend even more money than necessary trying to fix it by changing the wrong parts). I did see a special tool that can be inserted into the exhaust system and a procedure to use on the MaxxForce 7 that is supposed to clean the DOC without removal. Does this work? (I doubt it) I'll bet you that if you get your DPF within spec and remove the surface plugging (you can see it when you pull the DOC), it will help the problem. I'll bet if you bought a brand new DOC and a brand new DPF, and bolted it on one bus as a trial, that bus would be perfect for 30,000 miles until a surface plugging problem came up again! (Plus then you would have spares) No reflash can fix a surface plugged DOC and a poorly designed in cyl dosing process. If they went to downstream dosing like they did with the 2010 MaxxForce DT, their problem would be over.
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Thomasbus24
Administrator

USA
3361 Posts

Posted - 10/05/2012 :  11:24:00 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by sambrutay

Apparently IC should call it quits on theV8
platform. Just my opinion.



The more time that goes by, the more I think that International should just quit the engine business entirely. They have botched it so bad and gotten so many hard feelings from customers that it might be best to just call up Cummins and strike a deal.
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Fastback
Top Member

991 Posts

Posted - 10/08/2012 :  05:42:30 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by sambrutay

Wow, looking thru the forum and find nobody complaining about the Maxx 7 growing oil anymore? Your problem fixed or are you just tired of
complaining?




We just never have experianced the problem on our Maxx 7s

Why yes, the ORIGinal CHARGER is a Fastback
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sambrutay
Advanced Member

United States
235 Posts

Posted - 10/08/2012 :  06:15:54 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Fastback

quote:
Originally posted by sambrutay

Wow, looking thru the forum and find nobody complaining about the Maxx 7 growing oil anymore? Your problem fixed or are you just tired of
complaining?




We just never have experianced the problem on our Maxx 7s



That's amazing to hear. How many do you have? We have 210 so we see lots of problems. When you have many copies of a certain model you can see patterns for sure. What is your oil change interval? When was the last time you actually had to add oil to a Maxxforce 7?

Bruce
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mastertech
Advanced Member

242 Posts

Posted - 10/08/2012 :  3:10:56 PM  Show Profile  Visit mastertech's Homepage  Reply with Quote
We just accept it and change oil every 4000 miles. They are usually a inch or three high everytime they come in.
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sambrutay
Advanced Member

United States
235 Posts

Posted - 10/09/2012 :  04:33:51 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by mastertech

We just accept it and change oil every 4000 miles. They are usually a inch or three high everytime they come in.


That's just not right. IC needs to fix this problem.

Bruce
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Fastback
Top Member

991 Posts

Posted - 10/09/2012 :  05:02:15 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by sambrutay

quote:
Originally posted by Fastback

quote:
Originally posted by sambrutay

Wow, looking thru the forum and find nobody complaining about the Maxx 7 growing oil anymore? Your problem fixed or are you just tired of
complaining?




We just never have experianced the problem on our Maxx 7s



That's amazing to hear. How many do you have? We have 210 so we see lots of problems. When you have many copies of a certain model you can see patterns for sure. What is your oil change interval? When was the last time you actually had to add oil to a Maxxforce 7?



We only have 15 buses total, 2 of which are Maxx 7s. We change oil every 250 hours or 6 months, whichever comes first. I don't recall adding oil to one.
Only thing I can add is we do use BP Premier fuel in this very rural district, 220 square miles/550 students, not much putting around town.

Why yes, the ORIGinal CHARGER is a Fastback
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Charles003
New Member

7 Posts

Posted - 10/15/2012 :  3:55:17 PM  Show Profile  Visit Charles003's Homepage  Reply with Quote
We recieved an AFC letter today (G-12923) for all of our MF7s. We have 10 2007 and 9 2011
They are going to reflash the ECMs and "clean" the DOCs to eliminate excessive fuel dilution. The repair is supposed to take 1.5 hours per bus.
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Bassman
Top Member

USA
514 Posts

Posted - 10/16/2012 :  04:27:06 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Finally....a bulletin that acknowleges that the DOC needs to be cleaned to help the problem!!!!!! Do you know how many parts they have thrown at this problem and not fixed it!!! I don't have any of the MaxxForce 7's but let us know if the on board cleaning with the restriction tool works. (We pull our DT DOC's off the bus).
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sambrutay
Advanced Member

United States
235 Posts

Posted - 10/16/2012 :  06:10:40 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
They have already completed this at our locations(G-12923). We have 205 2007 emmision Maxxforce 7's. We will know if this works in about 6 to 8 weeks. This is what they call the containment. A final flash is supposed to follow in November.

Bruce
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Bassman
Top Member

USA
514 Posts

Posted - 10/16/2012 :  06:24:41 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
I think we ought to give IH 3 free reflashes under warranty. Then, after three tries, they should have to pay for the labor and inconvenience. I have 05's, 06's, and 08's that have been reflashed so many times, they've lost their identity and can't remember whether they used to be boy buses or girl buses! :)
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Troy87
Active Member

United States
25 Posts

Posted - 10/17/2012 :  04:26:22 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
We are having the Oil/Fuel Dilution problems with our MF-7's...Yesterday we received a notice for Field Change G-12923, to repair this problem. They say"Reason for this Campaign, To prevent possible Diesel Oxidation Catalyst (DOC) face plugging-resulting in excessive fuel dilution of the engine oil." According to this, "the repair will involve the installation of new ECM software and cleaning of the DOC. The repair will be free of charge within the warranty period -or- one year from the date of the field change letter." Crossing my fingers that this works.
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sambrutay
Advanced Member

United States
235 Posts

Posted - 10/17/2012 :  05:21:09 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
As do I Troy. How many do you have? also AFC's always = 1 year, Recalls = forever.

Bruce
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BJ Henderson
Advanced Member

USA
228 Posts

Posted - 10/21/2012 :  12:42:35 AM  Show Profile  Send BJ Henderson an AOL message  Reply with Quote
Bassman, that one is good!

Do you think you may have had an effect on the TSB on that engine? Many of us know that the way these field repairs take place is they are data mining the end users (us) and coming up with engineering solutions.

CMTT,CMAT,CMBT
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Bassman
Top Member

USA
514 Posts

Posted - 10/22/2012 :  03:51:27 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
I participated in trial reprogrammings on the DT and it really seemed to help for a while but then it came back with a vengence (worse than before). Keeping the DOC from surface plugging and keeping the soot load in the DPF within specs has been our plan and it has been working (but annoying).
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efkimes
Active Member

31 Posts

Posted - 10/26/2012 :  05:59:14 AM  Show Profile  Send efkimes a Yahoo! Message  Reply with Quote
Our problem has not been fixed. We have at least one bus at the dealer constantly. Very frustrating and they are out of warrenty soon. We have talked about just trading them in to get rid of them. None of the fixes ever really work. We change oil at 6000 miles and still have trouble. Some of our buses are from the early 90's and late 80's. sad that these buses cant even get out of warranty. We are not purchasing any new IH buses. We purchased Thomas buses last time and were looking at propane Buses this time. So no, our problem has not been repaired there just isnt anything else to do or say.
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sambrutay
Advanced Member

United States
235 Posts

Posted - 10/26/2012 :  07:53:30 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by efkimes

Our problem has not been fixed. We have at least one bus at the dealer constantly. Very frustrating and they are out of warrenty soon. We have talked about just trading them in to get rid of them. None of the fixes ever really work. We change oil at 6000 miles and still have trouble. Some of our buses are from the early 90's and late 80's. sad that these buses cant even get out of warranty. We are not purchasing any new IH buses. We purchased Thomas buses last time and were looking at propane Buses this time. So no, our problem has not been repaired there just isnt anything else to do or say.


Hasn't fixed out problem either.

Bruce
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sambrutay
Advanced Member

United States
235 Posts

Posted - 05/31/2013 :  07:01:18 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
how about now? whats going on out there? for the most part we have been doing ok. But I have had a few in recent weeks at 2" to 4" overfull again.

Bruce

Edited by - sambrutay on 05/31/2013 07:01:46 AM
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kevin1336
Active Member

USA
11 Posts

Posted - 05/31/2013 :  07:44:21 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Hello all, first time but long time. Thanks for the many years of helpful info.
We have over 90 Max7s, none with any overfull (some looks to be using a little now) issues since last AFC. Previously, about half had rising oil levels. Looking good now- well, you know.
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Bassman
Top Member

USA
514 Posts

Posted - 05/31/2013 :  11:30:15 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
You just jinxed yourself :)
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kevin1336
Active Member

USA
11 Posts

Posted - 05/31/2013 :  12:14:31 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Bassman you are wrong, that happened when we bought the VTs and then again with the Max7s. Just kidding, they have had an issue or two but have been working pretty good.
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sambrutay
Advanced Member

United States
235 Posts

Posted - 06/04/2013 :  04:54:18 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Our VT's are the most problem prone buses we have. 180 copies. never ending fun with the V8 platform from IC.

Bruce
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Bassman
Top Member

USA
514 Posts

Posted - 06/04/2013 :  10:01:44 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
I ran a report the other day and my 05 and 06 IC buses with VT365 are the highest total cost maintenance buses and the highest maintenance cost per mile of any buses even including back to the 01 buses we have and other buses with higher miles!
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