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jeeptjken
Senior Member

147 Posts

Posted - 03/29/2018 :  11:04:00 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
We run mostly rural routes about 15,000 miles a year
Just wondering what everyone sees for rear brake shoe life
I have some that struggle to get 7000 miles on a set
all 2017 and 2018 Blue Bird vision unleaded gas 77 passenger all air brake

slippert
Top Member

USA
629 Posts

Posted - 03/29/2018 :  11:35:13 AM  Show Profile  Click to see slippert's MSN Messenger address  Reply with Quote
A neighboring local here is reporting 15-20000 on rear air brake blue bird visions... same age buses.... at 7000 you might as well run hydraulic brakes save money the purchase price ,but spend it later on repairs...
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RonF
Top Member

809 Posts

Posted - 03/29/2018 :  11:41:21 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
7000 miles? Wow I would suspect you have something wrong with the bus or the driver. My 2016's have between 40,000 and 65,000 and still have the originals on them. They highest is a special needs bus, diesel that runs rural and city. All of my others are diesel and run both rural and city. We just put our gas buses on the road this week.

US Army retired CMBT
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RonF
Top Member

809 Posts

Posted - 03/29/2018 :  12:23:18 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Unless you have a lot of hills in your area.

US Army retired CMBT
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aaronwilmoth80911
Top Member

527 Posts

Posted - 03/29/2018 :  12:50:58 PM  Show Profile  Visit aaronwilmoth80911's Homepage  Reply with Quote
Are these drum brakes? I've heard that Blue Bird has an issue with rear disc brakes, but not drums. 7000 miles on a set of shoes seems way out of hand.
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jeeptjken
Senior Member

147 Posts

Posted - 03/29/2018 :  1:32:49 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
All air drum so far best set made it 14000 miles worst set was 5800 miles I have 17 of the gas visions in our fleet had Blue Bird here as well as Meritor waiting on the next set to see if its improved

How did you get the gosinta in the whatchamacallit
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Mechan1c
Top Member

USA
827 Posts

Posted - 03/29/2018 :  3:44:33 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
I wonder if the poor life in the gassers is the lack of natural engine and trans braking you get with an ISB and Allison combination?

In my CE fleet we saw a significant drop in brake life going from DT's to V8s in the 77 pass buses. Went from getting 60-70K in the back to 40-50K. Same size 7" Meritor friction (MA2124707). We still haven't done a front brake job on any CE out to 140K.

What size shoes do the gassers have in the rear Jeeptjken?
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dferrell
Senior Member

96 Posts

Posted - 03/29/2018 :  5:42:52 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Wow...that seems pretty bad. We have all rear engine diesels and we get 50k - 60k on the rears. A couple of our buses have retarders and do more of the trips and those get 90K - 100K on the rear. We are rural and our normal routes are pretty flat but we have mountains to go over to get to just about anywhere else.
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black
Active Member

USA
49 Posts

Posted - 03/30/2018 :  07:43:17 AM  Show Profile  Visit black's Homepage  Reply with Quote
My shop guys said we had some where the front brakes were not adjusted properly, which caused the rear brakes to wear out pre-maturely.
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jeeptjken
Senior Member

147 Posts

Posted - 04/02/2018 :  04:06:28 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
rear shoes are 7" meritor ma212 4707

How did you get the gosinta in the whatchamacallit
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bfaulkner
Senior Member

167 Posts

Posted - 04/02/2018 :  06:35:45 AM  Show Profile  Visit bfaulkner's Homepage  Reply with Quote
May I recommend 312 4707. I Find that the 312s i get from international are a far better shoe. We went from 30kish to 50kish when we switched to the 312. also much less squeek. They are made for waste management and are ment for garbage trucks, witch are basically the same stopping type.
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bwest
Administrator

United States
3783 Posts

Posted - 04/02/2018 :  06:35:47 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
I have 90k on a 2014 Vision with hyd brakes and never changed pads. This has been my experience on all the chassis brands I've had over the 25 years I've been here. Occasionally I'll get one that has a caliper lock up and burn through a set but not often. I don't understand buying air brakes.

Bryan
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Fastback
Top Member

1499 Posts

Posted - 04/02/2018 :  08:37:48 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by bwest

I don't understand buying air brakes.



I don't know where jeeptken is from but in Iowa any school bus over 66 passenger has to have air brakes.

Why yes, the ORIGinal CHARGER is a Fastback
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jeeptjken
Senior Member

147 Posts

Posted - 04/02/2018 :  10:02:04 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
were in the rust belt so we only buy air brake these came with ma212 4707 shoes
I have used gz4707 from halidex I have used ma 312 4707 I have a set of ksr301 4707 that are going on next so far best life was the gz shoe from halidex

How did you get the gosinta in the whatchamacallit
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earl1412
Senior Member

101 Posts

Posted - 04/02/2018 :  11:58:46 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Has Blue Bird checked to make sure the buses have the correct relay valves in place? I do know there are valves that are designed to change the timing of the air getting to brake chambers, and maybe the buses are experiencing this situation.
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kummins
Active Member

41 Posts

Posted - 04/02/2018 :  1:35:20 PM  Show Profile  Visit kummins's Homepage  Reply with Quote
i prefer the 23000lb linings & never had a wear issue with meritor's.

i also like the es1160's from bendix.

http://www.foundationbrakes.com/media/documents/foundationdrumbrakes/bendixbrakeliningsoemcertifiedstoppingpower.pdf


it sounds like your having a drag issue, where they don't fully release.

check to make sure the pedal isn't constantly putting pressure on the treadle valve, the rears kick in first.

what type slack adjusters do you have? haldex style? the timing adjustment might be off

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jeeptjken
Senior Member

147 Posts

Posted - 04/03/2018 :  03:09:41 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
in the last 6 months blue bird has replaced the following on one unit
S7 valve
treadel valve
rear chambers
rear slack adjusters
rear shoes
rear drums
front slack adjusters
parking brake valve
the blue bird rep was in
the meritor rep was in
but no bendix rep to date

How did you get the gosinta in the whatchamacallit
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grandyc
Senior Member

United States
58 Posts

Posted - 04/04/2018 :  11:04:47 AM  Show Profile  Visit grandyc's Homepage  Reply with Quote
Do the brakes wear more on the right side? I did post a topic about this several months ago.
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bestguessrepairs
Active Member

24 Posts

Posted - 04/04/2018 :  12:26:49 PM  Show Profile  Visit bestguessrepairs's Homepage  Reply with Quote
What all have you checked ?
I see the laundry list of parts have been thrown at it but I am assuming that no diagnosis on BB end just parts thrown at it hoping something fixes it.
I can tell you 100 things to check but need more details on what has been checked.


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jeeptjken
Senior Member

147 Posts

Posted - 04/05/2018 :  04:06:41 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
It is always the right side that is worn out first the left is about 40% remaining with the right at the wear limit blue bird keeps details mostly secret (keeps me from talking I guess) I know they have had pressure gauges on all 4 corners and take temp reading last temp reading I saw was rears at 450 and the fronts at 175 and I saw one with rears at 250 and fronts at 175 but they don't drive like a route driver drives they tend to drive casually funny side note the blue bird rep questioned why the parking brake gets set at every student stop (state law here ) so that made me scratch my head a little

How did you get the gosinta in the whatchamacallit
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Thomasbus24
Administrator

USA
4448 Posts

Posted - 04/05/2018 :  04:24:46 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Here is grandyc's post, referenced above: http://www.schoolbusfleet.com/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=39964
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bestguessrepairs
Active Member

24 Posts

Posted - 04/05/2018 :  04:41:22 AM  Show Profile  Visit bestguessrepairs's Homepage  Reply with Quote
Sounds to me like nobody knows what the true issue is and quite a few things have been checked.


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torque
Advanced Member

Canada
358 Posts

Posted - 04/05/2018 :  06:47:36 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Traction control kicking in?
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bestguessrepairs
Active Member

24 Posts

Posted - 04/05/2018 :  07:47:47 AM  Show Profile  Visit bestguessrepairs's Homepage  Reply with Quote
Traction control opens up an entire plethora of possibilities. But you still shouldn't be burning up shoes that fast.

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jeeptjken
Senior Member

147 Posts

Posted - 04/05/2018 :  09:14:57 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
With this being warranty and bird wanting to keep me out of there loop they can figure it out the reason I don't work on it and send the bill in for warranty rembursment is it takes 12 to 18 months to get paid from my dealer so im not willing to try up district money for that long

How did you get the gosinta in the whatchamacallit
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torque
Advanced Member

Canada
358 Posts

Posted - 04/05/2018 :  09:24:44 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Ya, that is the best way for something like this, let them figure it out and on their dime. That is a long time to wait for payment. We have to put our claims in within 15 days of the repair, but is is usually only a couple of days before we get our credit for most things.
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grandyc
Senior Member

United States
58 Posts

Posted - 04/05/2018 :  10:49:48 AM  Show Profile  Visit grandyc's Homepage  Reply with Quote
The main problem we found was the rear brake foundation was hanging up after a completed brake application. We found broken springs in the parking brake side of the brake chambers and a lack of lubrication at the s-cams. Since we fixed all that with the support of our dealer everything seems to be ok now. We found more binding on the right side then the left side.
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jeeptjken
Senior Member

147 Posts

Posted - 04/09/2018 :  06:22:44 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Any one seeing the right Z spring rubbing on the spring hanger dealer claims its a maintaince item I beg to differ I cant really see a bus with 6000 miles on it needing to be jacked up have the ubolts loosened the spring hanger bolts loosened the Z spring bushing recentered then all tightened back up as a maintaince item blue bird maintaince shows just need to check to make sure they are tight I do that every service

How did you get the gosinta in the whatchamacallit
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jerrymill
New Member

4 Posts

Posted - 11/01/2018 :  12:57:46 PM  Show Profile  Visit jerrymill's Homepage  Reply with Quote
im from michigan we have 2 2014 propane powered 77 passenger blue bird at around 20000 miles i put first set of brakes on now they have around 45000 and they have had 5sets on one of them and 6sets on the other one. i got as little as 1500 on a set of brakes i would like some ideas the dealer just wants me to change parts . i have 3 2016 gas power i put the first set on at around 32000 this summer they are already wearing way more than they should . one of them will need a set when i change the oil.. i can put tennis shoes on a international bus and get 20000 miles out of it . has anyone heard of a fix for this problem thank you
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jeeptjken
Senior Member

147 Posts

Posted - 11/06/2018 :  06:08:02 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
as far as I know still no known fix I have a 2013 propane with 99000 miles on it it has had 11 sets of rear brakes on it so far I have 2017 gas units with 40000 miles on them that are on there 5th set of rear shoes it interesting to note on my 2013 it has only had one set of fronts and none of my 2017s are anywhere close to needing fronts they are now going to try a set of KSR301-4707Q shoes on one unit and see what happens

How did you get the gosinta in the whatchamacallit
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PrestonBus
Active Member

USA
13 Posts

Posted - 11/08/2018 :  04:48:24 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
You're refering to "Crack Pressure" in the relay vlaves, thats designed to apply the rears first.... but normal crack pressure is only 1-2 psi difference, unless yours were outfitted with heavy duty relay valves that are "Cracking" much sooner... maybe for a Tanker setup or a garbage truck?
Im betting its related to the air cans not fully releasing. Especially with setting the maxi's at every stop. What are you running for cans in the rear? 30/30's?? Standard or Long Strokes?

Saving the World...One school bus at a time.
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wwinters
Senior Member

USA
109 Posts

Posted - 01/11/2019 :  05:03:40 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
jeeptjken
are you still have the brake issues on the Bluebird bus?
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wwinters
Senior Member

USA
109 Posts

Posted - 01/11/2019 :  05:12:58 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Preston
I think jeeptiken will have the same set up I have which is the long stroke 3030. I have the same issue that the rear brakes are wearing out with little to no wear on the front shoes. after reading you post I did check the chambers and they appear to be releasing at about the same rate as another Bluebird that is wearing brakes near perfect. The rear brakes are heating much more than the front which again would indicate what you are referencing. we have had several tec's from the dealer and Ford look at this and they have now sent some parts off one of my buses to engineers for reviewing. the s cams seem to be moving freely as well. One thing is we are only seeing this on our propane bluebird buses.
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Poolguy7250
Active Member

USA
11 Posts

Posted - 01/16/2019 :  7:25:13 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
We run Visions with Cummins. We were getting 12 to 15 k on rear brakes (air). We had the dealer add the parts to make the engine brake operate e.g switches,programming, valve springs. Now we’re getting 25 to 30k out of our brakes. Any new ones have it from the factory.
Slack adjuster greasing is very important. When I move the busses around the yard I pump the brakes at leadtv10 times. It helps keeping the slacks adjusted properly, including the front.
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wwinters
Senior Member

USA
109 Posts

Posted - 01/17/2019 :  04:23:40 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
We are seeing 20-25 k on rear shoes, the problem I have is the front shoes are not wearing. There was also a post that with 11 sets of rear shoes at 140,000. This was happening when the bus was new. Bluebird sent a technician to my shop to do warranty work on several buses at which time I told him it did not appear the front brakes were working correctly. only time would show Well we are seeing that the front brakes are not wearing and we are on the 3rd set of rear brakes. We use a quality lube each month during inspection on s cams and slack adjusters, we replace all components during brake job. we have checked brake chambers. Bluebird sent a technician down to replace some valves we test drove and saw rear brakes heat up to 590*-615* while front brakes were 180*-198*. I cannot get anyone who can tell me how the system adjust front to rear brake application before ABS that was a proportioning valve. now it is a crack pressure from what I understand. But I am getting different information on what valve controls and the operation of the system. I am very confident that the problem is air delivery?
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RonF
Top Member

809 Posts

Posted - 01/17/2019 :  05:03:33 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by wwinters

We are seeing 20-25 k on rear shoes, the problem I have is the front shoes are not wearing. There was also a post that with 11 sets of rear shoes at 140,000. This was happening when the bus was new. Bluebird sent a technician to my shop to do warranty work on several buses at which time I told him it did not appear the front brakes were working correctly. only time would show Well we are seeing that the front brakes are not wearing and we are on the 3rd set of rear brakes. We use a quality lube each month during inspection on s cams and slack adjusters, we replace all components during brake job. we have checked brake chambers. Bluebird sent a technician down to replace some valves we test drove and saw rear brakes heat up to 590*-615* while front brakes were 180*-198*. I cannot get anyone who can tell me how the system adjust front to rear brake application before ABS that was a proportioning valve. now it is a crack pressure from what I understand. But I am getting different information on what valve controls and the operation of the system. I am very confident that the problem is air delivery?




Those temperatures jump out at me. We typically get 320-350 on the rear and 220-240 on the front. Those temperatures are from the drum right where it makes contact with the shoe both inboard and outboard. Also I get about the same temps on IC and Blue bird.

I'm running OTR 4707Q blue', which is a 20k axle rating. I use the Reds on the 21K and up axle.

I'm getting 30k to 50k on the rears and 120k to 130k on the fronts, so about 3 to 1.

However take into consideration we are perfectly flat here and all but 3 buses don't run on dirt roads and those that do, the longest is 1/2 mile. No snow.

US Army retired CMBT

Edited by - RonF on 01/17/2019 08:13:27 AM
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