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Trailboss
Senior Member
United States
196 Posts |
 Posted - 02/10/2012 : 11:23:13 AM
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I have read a lot about issues with the IC buses and the Bluebirds but have not seen a lot latley about Thomas buses. A couple of years ago it seemed as if they were haveing a lot of problems but latley I have not seen much on Thomas. How is the emissions woking on the MBE's are they still pushing the MBE engine or what engine are they running now.
I also want to thank everyone for all of the good information on this sight. |
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bwest
Administrator
United States
3820 Posts |
Posted - 02/10/2012 : 11:58:36 AM
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| I do know from talking to the neigboring district that they quit using the MBE. They are now using the same engine as the BB that being the Cummins. I have been told by more than one person that Cummins is putting out the best engine on the available on the market today. Of course, if you have read any of my posts lately you probably know what my response to that would be. lol |
Bryan |
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willism
Advanced Member
United States
250 Posts |
Posted - 02/10/2012 : 12:42:11 PM
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| We got 6 Thomas buses in 2010 with isb 6.7's they have been pretty good other than the radiators going out and 2 turbos but they were warrenty. Only issue we have is they have built in car seats and the first 2 seats the isle is narrow and larger drivers have problems. If we get more I'm gonna push to get better drivers seats the side to side movement is sometimes scary. |
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tylerofficer
Active Member
35 Posts |
Posted - 02/10/2012 : 5:10:28 PM
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| We have three old FS-65s if that counts for anything, we also have a 2007 C2. The way the MBE engine is in that one is terrible, sound, smell, and power is all terrible in it, though it might be because it is a 2007. This one isn't even a full size bus, but my TD said for the money the MBE engine was not worth it. All new buses have electrical issues though, as well as new semi trucks and cars, that's just the way it is. In my opinion, the Cummins and even the Maxxforce DT is the best engine on the market as of right now, Cummins being the leader, that being said they will both still hav e their problems. My district is stuck on IC from now on, so unfortunately new Thomases are a negative in my area, same with the Birds. Last two new Birds we got were 2008 Visions, also full of electrical and engine problems. This years new IC's though, they seem to have been great so far, none in the shop since the beginning of the year. |
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r300
New Member
3 Posts |
Posted - 02/11/2012 : 4:10:45 PM
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| We have 40 1997-2012 transits nothing good to say about thomas bus. |
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Bassman
Top Member
USA
558 Posts |
Posted - 02/13/2012 : 04:01:28 AM
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| We have a lot of both IH and Thomas Buses. Mercedes did not produce a 2010 emissions product so no one is using it at this time. That being said, we have a bunch of them on the road and they are doing well. 14 2003's 3 2006's 14 2007's 6 2009's 11 2010's Excellent fuel mileage and few warranty claims. We have 7 2012 Thomas C2's with the Cummins and 2010 emissions that are really nice. Even better mileage than the Mercedes. Cummins has the best combo for 2010 emissions standard at the moment. The fuel mileage is much higher on either of these engines than the 10 2008 MaxxForce DT's and especially the 5 2011 MaxxForce DT's we have. Don't even get me started on how much work it takes to keep our 05 and 06 VT365's running well! |
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tylerofficer
Active Member
35 Posts |
Posted - 02/13/2012 : 1:27:56 PM
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| Anyone have any experience/thoughts on the C2 Hybrid? |
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bwest
Administrator
United States
3820 Posts |
Posted - 02/14/2012 : 05:12:35 AM
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I'd call the hybred interesting but not practical (in my opinion). What's the cost and what's the long term maintenance cost? There is just not an alternative out there that is viable yet except propane. (not to say that there might not be another one someday) Let oil get over $200 and then we"ll see some things that we thought were not possible. No govenment handout is going to make a product viable. It's going to take market forces to get it done. A side note here; I don't think there is any way that oil can stay over $200 (if it ever gets there at all) because the market will not bear it. Besides, all this talk about a finite amount of oil is bull hocky. I believe in abiotic oil. (look it up)
Well, you ask for thoughts. lol |
Bryan |
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Fastback
Top Member
1500 Posts |
Posted - 02/14/2012 : 07:01:02 AM
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 But isn't it a government handout that makes propane viable? |
Why yes, the ORIGinal CHARGER is a Fastback |
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RichBusman
Advanced Member
453 Posts |
Posted - 02/14/2012 : 08:03:10 AM
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Hybrids aren't worth it unless you get huge grant money. I'm sick and tired of all of these grants, especially when our national debt is so huge.
There is a district here that ran a cost analysis and found the propane is not an advantage for them long term. 3.5-4.0 MPG is unacceptable, when new SCR-equipped diesels are getting over 8-9 MPG.
I believe the upfront cost on a propane large bus is an additional $10-15,000, which I have no idea why it is more than diesel. It's a converted gasoline motor and a Ford transmission... shouldn't that be cheaper than a diesel motor and Allison transmission? Propane tanks and the conversion kit can't be THAT costly. |
Edited by - RichBusman on 02/14/2012 08:03:54 AM |
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bwest
Administrator
United States
3820 Posts |
Posted - 02/14/2012 : 10:49:03 AM
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I agree with you RichBusman, why does it cost more? As for the upcharge it is about $7,500 to $8,000. As for the cost of operation. As I have said before in other posts, my district is experiencing a 20 cent per mile savings over a diesel. (yes that is with 4.5 mpg & govt "handout") Without the "handout" we're talking 8 cents per mile savings. The new Ford/ Roush offering is suppose to get better mileage. I don't know what it will be and they are not saying yet but it won't take much to make a real differnce, put it in your calculator. Also remember the difference in maintenance. Less oil in sump, less costly oil filter, no emissions add ons, no turbo (how much are they now?), no air to air cooler, etc. etc.
Here's the deal guys. I am not getting paid for any of this or any other type of compensation, I just want others to know how easy this is. I just love that I am not having the troubles like we have been having with these sophisticated diesel engines. Fueling is safe and easy (one of my initial fears). My driver likes it, in fact he kind of likes discussing it with people who can't believe what they hear when he is on a trip. Over all it has just been a great experience in contrast to pulling my hair out over these diesels we have.
Now back to our regularly scheduled forum. lol |
Bryan |
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ThomasEFX
New Member
2 Posts |
Posted - 02/14/2012 : 2:24:24 PM
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| Sounds like the Propane buses are really not the way to go, and hybrids just seem like a pain to deal with. My district got a grant last year for two new buses, and they had to get rid of two other buses, and that was just to partially pay for them, I had no idea there were Hybrid grants. |
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bwest
Administrator
United States
3820 Posts |
Posted - 02/15/2012 : 06:37:22 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by ThomasEFX
Sounds like the Propane buses are really not the way to go,
Could you explain further? I'm interested to know why. Thanks |
Bryan |
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bluebirdvision
Top Member
USA
1081 Posts |
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bwest
Administrator
United States
3820 Posts |
Posted - 02/15/2012 : 2:07:59 PM
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| Aww, come on!!! I like good rounder. lol I still haven't found anything, that can't be fixed, that I don't like about propane! So I like to see what people are thinking, I might agree. |
Bryan |
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ICCEC2
New Member
USA
6 Posts |
Posted - 02/15/2012 : 7:45:53 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by bwest
Aww, come on!!! I like good rounder. lol I still haven't found anything, that can't be fixed, that I don't like about propane! So I like to see what people are thinking, I might agree.
Haha, I would have to have experience with the Propane before I said anything. It does cost more though, at least here, but does it give the bus any better MPG? |
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bwest
Administrator
United States
3820 Posts |
Posted - 02/15/2012 : 8:05:15 PM
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| I'm not sure where you live but you might check with a supplier and not go by what you see at the corner store. I have noticed around here that when you buy it on the street they are charging about a dollar more per gallon (which is highway robery!). When they bring us 350 gallons at a time for our fill station we are paying 1.89 before the fed's 50 cents is taken out. |
Bryan |
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ICCEC2
New Member
USA
6 Posts |
Posted - 02/15/2012 : 9:36:43 PM
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| You're probably right, especially since you have experience with it. Do you like the Propane buses? I take it you are running Visions? |
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08BBVision
Senior Member
USA
118 Posts |
Posted - 02/16/2012 : 12:26:05 AM
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| Blue Bird/Roush is the only bus manufacturer out there with the propane option. I haven't seen one in person, do they just sound like Gasoline engines? |
My School Bus Photostream
http://www.flickr.com/photos/tyler_officer/
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bluebirdvision
Top Member
USA
1081 Posts |
Posted - 02/16/2012 : 04:51:54 AM
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| Yes they sound like gas engines, as they are a converted gas motor. I liked the sound of a Chevy big block coming out from under the hood of them, haven't seen the roush conversion yet. NY BUS is supposed to get a demonstrator later this month/early next month |
Facebook Page: Blue Bird Corporation Fans
https://www.facebook.com/home.php?sk=group_212311114614&ap=1
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bwest
Administrator
United States
3820 Posts |
Posted - 02/16/2012 : 05:29:23 AM
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| We have a Clean Fuel 8.1 GM engine in our Vision and I love it. They discontinued their agreement with Clean Fuel when Obama.... I mean GM decided the 8.1 didn't fit their "green" company plan. Clean Fuel offered to develop the 8.0 GM industrial engine but it was going to cost BB 5 million R&D money and they balked (this is from the Clean Fuel guy). 08BBVision is correct in saying BB is the only company offering a LP shool bus & it now has a Ford/ Roush set up (Ford transmission by the way). However, I just talked to a Clean Fuel guy and he says Thomas is coming out with one in '13. It will have that 8.0 with the Allison behind it. bluebirdvision, it is technically a conversion but it is done with Ford's blessings and has the computer system programed for propane (same for GM). The Ford engines just went out on a truck last week to the BB factory. So production was suppose to start the week. Keep in mind guys this is not the old vaporizor of yesteryear. This is liquid injection and it vaporizes in the cylinder. |
Bryan |
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bwest
Administrator
United States
3820 Posts |
Posted - 02/16/2012 : 06:50:22 AM
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| By the way, Trailboss, I am sorry we (or I) hyjacked your thread. |
Bryan |
Edited by - bwest on 02/16/2012 06:50:55 AM |
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08BBVision
Senior Member
USA
118 Posts |
Posted - 02/16/2012 : 11:46:10 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by bluebirdvision
Yes they sound like gas engines, as they are a converted gas motor. I liked the sound of a Chevy big block coming out from under the hood of them
Man, that would be cool to hear, as much as I love hearing my small block in my 97 Chevy! With so much love for IC in my area, I probably won't ever get to hear/see one.
Would either of you happen to have any photos of yours? |
My School Bus Photostream
http://www.flickr.com/photos/tyler_officer/
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Edited by - 08BBVision on 02/16/2012 11:48:23 AM |
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Trailboss
Senior Member
United States
196 Posts |
Posted - 02/16/2012 : 12:34:29 PM
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| I find this all interesting I ran 30 buses on propane about 15 years ago. We also ran a couple of our buses on natural gas as a trial run for our local gas company. If I had to choose today natural gas or propane I would most deffenitly choose propane. We converted our gasers to run on propane only and not dual fuel. The natural gas buses had to be run on dual fuel because they did not have any range with 6 large tanks the range was less than under 100 miles. I'm tired of all this emission crap we have to deal with on these diesels now. |
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bwest
Administrator
United States
3820 Posts |
Posted - 02/16/2012 : 2:39:47 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by Trailboss
I'm tired of all this emission crap we have to deal with on these diesels now.
That's exactly where I'm at. I just love that these things are simple and reliable. |
Bryan |
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bluebirdvision
Top Member
USA
1081 Posts |
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08BBVision
Senior Member
USA
118 Posts |
Posted - 02/16/2012 : 4:57:10 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by bwest
quote:
Originally posted by Trailboss
I'm tired of all this emission crap we have to deal with on these diesels now.
That's exactly where I'm at. I just love that these things are simple and reliable.
Makes sense, I've heard the new DEF and emissions crap is complete (pardon my language) hell to deal with. Our district seems to think all of the drivers can deal with it on the new IC's we have, guess we'll see. |
My School Bus Photostream
http://www.flickr.com/photos/tyler_officer/
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Crown
Senior Member
89 Posts |
Posted - 02/16/2012 : 6:09:28 PM
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| We're running quite a few BB Visions with the 8.1 wet injection. So far they have been good. Several engines have had rocker arm/ball failures, but they are an easy fix. We've had one engine fail in the lower end. Since they are coming out of warranty, we are starting to do our own replacements of the in-tank fuel pumps and 80% valves. The pumps are expensive. And of course, you have to defuel them to work on any of this. Defueling is still a bit problematic for us at this point, but we are trying different things. |
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Fastback
Top Member
1500 Posts |
Posted - 02/17/2012 : 03:48:17 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by 08BBVision
Makes sense, I've heard the new DEF and emissions crap is complete (pardon my language) hell to deal with. Our district seems to think all of the drivers can deal with it on the new IC's we have, guess we'll see.
We have 07 MaxxForce 7s and an SCR Cummins, no hell here, they have all been great and trouble free. |
Why yes, the ORIGinal CHARGER is a Fastback |
Edited by - Fastback on 02/17/2012 03:50:21 AM |
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Bassman
Top Member
USA
558 Posts |
Posted - 02/17/2012 : 04:18:36 AM
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| 2011 MaxxForce DT and 2012 C2 Cummins piece of cake to keep up with. It's more of a fear ahead of time than a reality guys. |
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bwest
Administrator
United States
3820 Posts |
Posted - 02/17/2012 : 05:31:05 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by Crown
We're running quite a few BB Visions with the 8.1 wet injection. So far they have been good. Several engines have had rocker arm/ball failures, but they are an easy fix. We've had one engine fail in the lower end. Since they are coming out of warranty, we are starting to do our own replacements of the in-tank fuel pumps and 80% valves. The pumps are expensive. And of course, you have to defuel them to work on any of this. Defueling is still a bit problematic for us at this point, but we are trying different things.
Finally! Someone who has had some experience besides me! Thanks for you comments. Are you seeing corrosion problems with the pump? I have heard there was some corrosion problems out west where the quality of the fuel is not as good. I talked to my supplier about this and he thought maybe they are using anhydrus tanks as storage and picking up some of the left over anhydrus amonia.
What do you think about them over all? Do you think the problems your seeing will just be a one time thing and then after the bugs are worked out will stay fixed or do you think some of this is going to be an ongoing problem? |
Bryan |
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08BBVision
Senior Member
USA
118 Posts |
Posted - 02/17/2012 : 06:37:25 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by Bassman
2011 MaxxForce DT and 2012 C2 Cummins piece of cake to keep up with. It's more of a fear ahead of time than a reality guys.
Easy to take care of, probably, but is it hard for the drivers to remember DEF and a that? |
My School Bus Photostream
http://www.flickr.com/photos/tyler_officer/
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Fastback
Top Member
1500 Posts |
Posted - 02/17/2012 : 07:30:48 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by 08BBVision
quote:
Originally posted by Bassman
2011 MaxxForce DT and 2012 C2 Cummins piece of cake to keep up with. It's more of a fear ahead of time than a reality guys.
Easy to take care of, probably, but is it hard for the drivers to remember DEF and a that?
No, theres a guage and the tank is large enough to go 5,000 miles or so between fills so shop crew can just top it off during normal service. |
Why yes, the ORIGinal CHARGER is a Fastback |
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Bassman
Top Member
USA
558 Posts |
Posted - 02/17/2012 : 12:14:03 PM
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| Honestly, we have trained our drivers to let us know when they get down to only one LED (1/4 tank) and then we add three 2 1/2 gal jugs. No one has forgotten to tell us all year and no one has gotten down to a warning stage. (We have a longe range plan to get a 400 gal. tank.) |
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Crown
Senior Member
89 Posts |
Posted - 03/03/2012 : 09:42:13 AM
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quote:
Finally! Someone who has had some experience besides me! Thanks for you comments. Are you seeing corrosion problems with the pump? I have heard there was some corrosion problems out west where the quality of the fuel is not as good. I talked to my supplier about this and he thought maybe they are using anhydrus tanks as storage and picking up some of the left over anhydrus amonia.
What do you think about them over all? Do you think the problems your seeing will just be a one time thing and then after the bugs are worked out will stay fixed or do you think some of this is going to be an ongoing problem?
We have not been seeing much in the way of corrosion problems with the pumps. However, another school bus operator just a couple miles away has been seeing significant corrosion problems just about from day one. In my opinion the problem lies (literally) in the on-site supply tank. Nearly all of these are used tanks from who knows where. There is the amonia problem and possible improper tank storage. Propane has moisture in it. If the tanks are allowed to sit open or with much air in them they will rust and corrode inside, and it's very hard to stop or out-grow.
In our case it may be related to fuel quality but does not appear to be rust and/or corrosion. I'd guess we have replaced about 10% of the pumps in the first 40-50,000 miles which is not a huge problem. to the best of my knowledge we have not had to replace any pumps twice yet. Again, they have been good. |
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newbusman
New Member
Canada
7 Posts |
Posted - 03/19/2012 : 9:09:54 PM
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| i am reading alot about propane engines in this discussion. this is not a new concept, we had them in B.C. and Alberta 15 years ago. they were a pain in the ass then with broken exhaust manifolds,frozen mixers and poor fuel economy.now in saying that i have just recently returned to bus repairs after a 10 year hiatus.are they still having the same problems or have they worked those problems out? |
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Thomas Buses
