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BusBoy
Top Member
USA
2042 Posts |
 Posted - 09/12/2008 : 7:23:10 PM
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Our Indiana Blue Bird dealer Cardinal Bus Sales had a great seminar on Pro Pane fueled buses! It was very interesting and I thinking a great way to go Green!
They had a pro/do type bus there and I had the opportunity to drive this bus! It had a lot of power and reminded me of the days when I drove a gas bus.
Is there anyone out there running these Blue Bird pro pane Visions? I know they said Texas and California were one of the first to have them. Was wondering if anyone might be ordering any and if you have one in your fleet already, what are your thoughts about this type of bus and if you are saving money? I know the Federal Government will give an 80% tax credit to those districts going with this program.
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Steven A.Rosenow
Top Member
USA
1926 Posts |
Posted - 09/13/2008 : 01:37:45 AM
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| You'll never see me drive a school bus powered by propane. Propane is 100x more volatile than gasoline, therefore more explosive. |
http://www.gilligcoaches.net |
Edited by - Steven A.Rosenow on 09/13/2008 03:08:41 AM |
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bluebirdvision
Top Member
USA
1081 Posts |
Posted - 09/13/2008 : 05:52:56 AM
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The Transportation Supervisor here is seriously considering switching to a propane Vision. He said he drove one at a conference over the summer and that they are quiet, have a lot of power and get better fuel economy. I am a GM man so this sounds great to me.
I really don't believe that Blue Bird (or any other manufacture) would jeopardize children by producing an unsafe product. |
Facebook Page: Blue Bird Corporation Fans
https://www.facebook.com/home.php?sk=group_212311114614&ap=1
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origcharger
Top Member
United States
619 Posts |
Posted - 09/13/2008 : 06:00:55 AM
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We did propane in the 1980s, I don't think we will go back.
I would'nt even consider it unless my Bluebird dealer was very good and very close. |
Operating; Seven T444Es, One MaxxForce 7, One VT365, Four DT466s, One E-450 6.0 and one Mercedes in a C2. |
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origcharger
Top Member
United States
619 Posts |
Posted - 09/13/2008 : 06:11:39 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by bluebirdvision
The Transportation Supervisor here is seriously considering switching to a propane Vision. He said he drove one at a conference over the summer and that they are quiet, have a lot of power and get better fuel economy.
Traditionally, because propane has less BTUs per gallon, the fuel mileage will be less than gasoline which is less than diesel.
When we had gas, propane and diesel buses the fuel mileage ranges were something like; 3.5-4.8 mpg propane
4.5-5.5 mpg gasoline
6.5-9.0 mpg diesel
I would have to see this "better fuel economy" before I would believe it.
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Operating; Seven T444Es, One MaxxForce 7, One VT365, Four DT466s, One E-450 6.0 and one Mercedes in a C2. |
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Rich
Top Member
United States
5768 Posts |
Posted - 09/13/2008 : 06:59:01 AM
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Blue Bird is claiming an average around 6 MPG on the propane units.
Gasoline Vision is coming soon as well, so there will be a choice. |
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YellowBox
Advanced Member
Puerto Rico (USA)
254 Posts |
Posted - 09/13/2008 : 6:14:20 PM
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It would be nteresting to se a PROPANE fuel conversion on a DIESEL ENGINE platfom (lets say a PROPANE FUEL CONVERSION on a CAT C7 engine) to see what happens and to see if it has more fuele economy over PROPANE FUEL CONVERSION on a GASOLINE ENGINE platform.
Some time ago I have heard of a PROPANE INYECTION system for DIESEL engines to boost their power and fuel eficiency but I do not know if mixing PROPANE with DIESEL in some sort of mixture will have those beneffits.
DIESEL FUEL and GASOLINE fuel will be going to a revolutionizing process in wich SYNTHETIC PETROLEUM will be made frome the VULCANIZATION of COAL. It is expensive for now but with time it will be cost available for all (remember when DVDs hit the market)
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Jared
Top Member
USA
1865 Posts |
Posted - 09/13/2008 : 7:18:59 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by Rich
Blue Bird is claiming an average around 6 MPG on the propane units.
Gasoline Vision is coming soon as well, so there will be a choice.
Wow, really? So will that be the GM 8.1L? Is there a market for straight up gas buses again? |
http://www.flickr.com/photos/jaredg21/sets/ |
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Steven A.Rosenow
Top Member
USA
1926 Posts |
Posted - 09/14/2008 : 12:12:41 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by YellowBox
It would be nteresting to se a PROPANE fuel conversion on a DIESEL ENGINE platfom (lets say a PROPANE FUEL CONVERSION on a CAT C7 engine) to see what happens and to see if it has more fuele economy over PROPANE FUEL CONVERSION on a GASOLINE ENGINE platform.
Some time ago I have heard of a PROPANE INYECTION system for DIESEL engines to boost their power and fuel eficiency but I do not know if mixing PROPANE with DIESEL in some sort of mixture will have those beneffits.
DIESEL FUEL and GASOLINE fuel will be going to a revolutionizing process in wich SYNTHETIC PETROLEUM will be made frome the VULCANIZATION of COAL. It is expensive for now but with time it will be cost available for all (remember when DVDs hit the market)
I hate to bring this up, but can you please avoid the use of all-caps in those instances? It's really unnecessary and actually comes off as yelling.
-Steve |
http://www.gilligcoaches.net |
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BBInt.10
Top Member
USA
1042 Posts |
Posted - 09/14/2008 : 06:10:18 AM
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| I had a chance to drive a propane powered Vision over the summer at a trade show, and it did have nice get-up-and-go. However, I didn't have any big long hills to climb, and I only had about 15 people on board the bus, so I am curious how it would climb a long hill loaded with people in comparison to a diesel. The Blue Bird rep on board told us the cost to run a propane powered bus is a lot less than a diesel (I think he said 23 cents a mile versus 41 or 42 for a diesel) however the propane units cost an additional $9000 up front and you only have a 300 mile range on each fill-up, and propane filling stations are not as easily found as gas stations. |
If all your problems are behind you... you must be a school bus driver. |
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origcharger
Top Member
United States
619 Posts |
Posted - 09/14/2008 : 06:22:29 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by BBInt.10
I had a chance to drive a propane powered Vision over the summer at a trade show, and it did have nice get-up-and-go. However, I didn't have any big long hills to climb, and I only had about 15 people on board the bus, so I am curious how it would climb a long hill loaded with people in comparison to a diesel. The Blue Bird rep on board told us the cost to run a propane powered bus is a lot less than a diesel (I think he said 23 cents a mile versus 41 or 42 for a diesel) however the propane units cost an additional $9000 up front and you only have a 300 mile range on each fill-up, and propane filling stations are not as easily found as gas stations.
Allowing the claimed 6 mpg for propane, in order for the fuel cost to be 23 cents per mile, you would have to be burning propane that was less than $1.40 per gallon. Current propane prices are closer to the $2.40 range. |
Operating; Seven T444Es, One MaxxForce 7, One VT365, Four DT466s, One E-450 6.0 and one Mercedes in a C2. |
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Rich
Top Member
United States
5768 Posts |
Posted - 09/14/2008 : 06:50:14 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by origcharger
quote:
Originally posted by BBInt.10
I had a chance to drive a propane powered Vision over the summer at a trade show, and it did have nice get-up-and-go. However, I didn't have any big long hills to climb, and I only had about 15 people on board the bus, so I am curious how it would climb a long hill loaded with people in comparison to a diesel. The Blue Bird rep on board told us the cost to run a propane powered bus is a lot less than a diesel (I think he said 23 cents a mile versus 41 or 42 for a diesel) however the propane units cost an additional $9000 up front and you only have a 300 mile range on each fill-up, and propane filling stations are not as easily found as gas stations.
Allowing the claimed 6 mpg for propane, in order for the fuel cost to be 23 cents per mile, you would have to be burning propane that was less than $1.40 per gallon. Current propane prices are closer to the $2.40 range.
I believe bus operators will be getting a rebate from the Feds in the $1.00 per gallon range, so that will probably put the costs down around $1.40. |
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BusBoy
Top Member
USA
2042 Posts |
Posted - 09/14/2008 : 10:43:46 AM
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You are correct Richard. The Federal Government will give an 80% tax credit to those districts going with this program. Which here ran us around $1.40 to $1.80 per pound in pro pane.
While test driving this bus, we did go up a few steep hills and had about 10 people on board and had made a complete stop. The bus took off like we were on flat ground, so I would think the pick up and go with a full bus on a hill might slow you down just a little but, over all the bus had a lot of power.
The added cost to purchase this bus here in IN was around $13,000, but that's a big difference compared to the Hybrid bus, at over $100.000-plus on an IC/CE.
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Your Child's Safety is Our Business |
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origcharger
Top Member
United States
619 Posts |
Posted - 09/14/2008 : 12:45:18 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by BusBoy
You are correct Richard. The Federal Government will give an 80% tax credit to those districts going with this program. Which here ran us around $1.40 to $1.80 per pound in pro pane.
The added cost to purchase this bus here in IN was around $13,000, but that's a big difference compared to the Hybrid bus, at over $100.000-plus on an IC/CE.
Now wait a minute;
The Feds are giving an 80% tax credit to school districs that are tax exempt and pay no taxes?
You are claiming "$1.40 to $1.80 per pound in propane"? Considering a gallon of propane weighs about 6 pounds, if thats the credit then you are getting in excess of $8.40 for every $2.50 gallon of propane you purchase?? Or if you are paying $1.50 per pound of propane you are getting hosed for $9.00 per gallon??? What is your fuel cost per mile and how do you arrive at that????
The added cost for a propane Vision is $13,000? Over what, the price of a gasoline Vision? A diesel Vision? Can I assume over a diesel bus since you compare it to the upcharge for a diesel hybrid over a diesel bus? |
Operating; Seven T444Es, One MaxxForce 7, One VT365, Four DT466s, One E-450 6.0 and one Mercedes in a C2. |
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BusBoy
Top Member
USA
2042 Posts |
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Rich
Top Member
United States
5768 Posts |
Posted - 09/14/2008 : 1:55:11 PM
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I dont think propane should be what this country banks on for future "alternatives". It relies on petroleum production and that is something we need to use less of.
Hydrogen and electric is where we should be investing. I'm sure at some point we will see some very effective true alternative buses.
I suppose propane will be a decent alternative for the next 10 years until we see better batteries for electric vehicles. |
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03CV200
Top Member
United States
740 Posts |
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BusBoy
Top Member
USA
2042 Posts |
Posted - 09/14/2008 : 2:11:24 PM
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From looking at that picture, I believe that's the same bus we drove! It is a Texas spec'd bus.
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Your Child's Safety is Our Business |
Edited by - BusBoy on 09/14/2008 2:20:36 PM |
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Rich
Top Member
United States
5768 Posts |
Posted - 09/14/2008 : 2:32:03 PM
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| That same bus was in New York in July at our state show. It has been making its rounds! |
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origcharger
Top Member
United States
619 Posts |
Posted - 09/14/2008 : 3:10:13 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by BusBoy
The $1.40 to $1.80 is after the tax exempts.
Through 2009 (now 2012) Congress Has Authorized Alternative Fuel Rebate
50 Cents per Gallon for Propane
School Districts Eligible to Apply for Rebate Direct from IRS if Have Own Fueling Facility
Must Register with IRS – Form 637
File IRS Form 4136 Annually
New Forms Available on www.irs.gov website
Some Resources I found.
http://www.propanevision.com/
http://www.usepropane.com/climate/portland_public_school_case_study.pdf
http://www.usepropane.com/climate/denton_case.pdf
This is the same resources they used in their presentation:
www.propane.tx.gov/research/documents/17PaullBlueBirdPropaneVisionSchoolBus.ppt -
The $13,000 is the added cost for how the chassis is retro fitted I’m assuming.Texas added cost is Base Cost Approximately $7000 More Than Lowest Priced Diesel Bus of Same Specifications
Lower Differential Cost When Compared to Higher Priced Diesel Engine Options
($3000 - $4000)
This came from the link above.
I’m also comparing this extra cost to a hybrid bus.
This must be the credit being refered to, I notice it is only available until September 30, 2009.
Still not sure if our local propane prices, which around here is typically used for heating and grain drying purposes, even has this excise tax on it to begin with. Further assuming that you can only get tax credit for a tax that you actually paid.
"United States (Federal) Incentives and Laws
Alternative Fuel Excise Tax Credit
An excise tax credit is available for alternative fuel that is sold for use or used as a fuel to operate a motor vehicle. The credit is $0.50 per gasoline gallon equivalent (GGE) of compressed natural gas and $0.50 per liquid gallon of liquefied petroleum gas, liquefied natural gas, and liquefied hydrogen. The entity eligible for the credit is the one liable for reporting and paying the federal excise tax on the fuel. Eligible entities must be registered with the Internal Revenue Service (IRS). Tax exempt entities that fuel vehicles from an on-site fueling station can claim the excise tax credit and receive a direct payment from the IRS. The following forms may be used to claim the excise tax credit: Form 720 (PDF 442 KB); Form 8849, Schedule 3 (PDF 189 KB); and/or Form 4136 (PDF 263 KB). The credit is available until September 30, 2009, except in the case of the credit for liquefied hydrogen, which expires September 30, 2014. For more information see Publication 510 (PDF 1 MB) and IRS Notice 2006-92 (PDF 29 KB)."
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Operating; Seven T444Es, One MaxxForce 7, One VT365, Four DT466s, One E-450 6.0 and one Mercedes in a C2. |
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BusBoy
Top Member
USA
2042 Posts |
Posted - 09/14/2008 : 3:25:18 PM
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Curt,
The guys (Blue Bird dealer and the Propane Exceptional Energy program) that had this seminar on Pro Pane fueled buses, told us that they are pushing this exemption up to 2012. |
Your Child's Safety is Our Business |
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03CV200
Top Member
United States
740 Posts |
Posted - 09/14/2008 : 7:30:29 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by Rich
That same bus was in New York in July at our state show. It has been making its rounds!
Interesting, I figured it was a demo bus.
I guessed it was a FL spec because the keychain said "Florida Bus Sales" or something like that, it had Florida in the name, lol. |
-Dave |
Edited by - 03CV200 on 09/14/2008 7:31:22 PM |
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BusFreak
Top Member
USA
798 Posts |
Posted - 09/14/2008 : 7:42:12 PM
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| Florida specs would include blue seats and sealed beam marker/clearance lights. That bus is cool though. One question I have though, what is the advantage of offering the gasoline Vision? Gas hasn't been an option on a Type C or larger bus since the GM line left the blue bird family, and I'm sure the gas loyal customers have since switched to diesel. I know that there is plenty of question of reliability, but gas just doesn't get the same mileage as diesel! |
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03CV200
Top Member
United States
740 Posts |
Posted - 09/15/2008 : 12:18:10 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by BusFreak
Florida specs would include blue seats and sealed beam marker/clearance lights. That bus is cool though. One question I have though, what is the advantage of offering the gasoline Vision? Gas hasn't been an option on a Type C or larger bus since the GM line left the blue bird family, and I'm sure the gas loyal customers have since switched to diesel. I know that there is plenty of question of reliability, but gas just doesn't get the same mileage as diesel!
Ahh, I see. Good to know. I forgot about the sealed lights. Granted I don't get out of PA much, and I know FL spec Blue Birds were the only ones I've seen with those style mirrors.
I know there are several contractors in my district that would love gas engine buses. See many contractors here only have 1 or 2 buses so they just park them in their yards, and don't have plugs outside for the block heaters; therefore, gas engines are just easier for them. |
-Dave |
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Rich
Top Member
United States
5768 Posts |
Posted - 09/15/2008 : 4:09:07 PM
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Once 2010 hits, diesel engines are going to be even more expensive up front to buy, and the cost per mile cost will continue to rise due to the added equipment, and in some cases urea.
The way I see it, if Blue Bird keeps the gasoline Vision $10-15,000 below the diesels, they will sell a LOT of gasoline buses. |
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Thomas Ford 85-16
Top Member
USA
4177 Posts |
Posted - 09/15/2008 : 4:38:45 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by Rich
Once 2010 hits, diesel engines are going to be even more expensive up front to buy, and the cost per mile cost will continue to rise due to the added equipment, and in some cases urea.
The way I see it, if Blue Bird keeps the gasoline Vision $10-15,000 below the diesels, they will sell a LOT of gasoline buses.
I get really upset when the all-knowing in the government start to totally run the market by picking on one style of engine in terms of emissions. As if they know what is best! Grrrrrr. |
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03CV200
Top Member
United States
740 Posts |
Posted - 09/15/2008 : 5:23:07 PM
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| I think everyone in the truck/bus industry is dreading 2010 emissions. I think at this point, all engine manufacturers will be using urea. Cummins will be using urea, as will International and Detroit last I heard, and with Cat leaving, that leaves no good diesel option for buses. |
-Dave |
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origcharger
Top Member
United States
619 Posts |
Posted - 09/15/2008 : 6:34:28 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by 03CV200
I think everyone in the truck/bus industry is dreading 2010 emissions. I think at this point, all engine manufacturers will be using urea. Cummins will be using urea, as will International and Detroit last I heard, and with Cat leaving, that leaves no good diesel option for buses.
International says they are going to do it without urea;
"International Trucks and Engines Will Comply with 2010 Emissions Standards without SCR
Technology Approach to Emissions Compliance Will Keep Customer Costs Low
Warrenville, IL (October 31, 2007)
International Truck and Engine Corporation, a Navistar company, today announced that MaxxForce™ brand diesel engines will meet the stringent U.S. federal 2010 emissions standards for all its core applications without the use of selective catalytic reduction (SCR) systems. The company's strategy is designed to provide customer driven solutions to reduce costs and maintenance needs for buyers of International® brand vehicles when the next EPA on-highway emission standards take effect. International is North America's largest combined commercial truck, school bus and mid-range diesel engine producer. International has spent years studying and evaluating SCR, an emissions aftertreatment technology that involves additional vehicle hardware, sensors, electronic calibrations and the use of urea injection, which will require a North American delivery infrastructure to be operationally mature when 2010 vehicles are on the road. While the company has found SCR to be a way to effectively meet 2010 emissions standards, it adds to the cost and complexity of use of commercial vehicles for truck and bus fleet operators. "I have publicly been an advocate of customer friendly emissions control solutions which do not add additional costs to our truck and bus customers. While SCR is a means to achieve the NOx reduction requirement for 2010, it comes with a steep cost to our customers," said Daniel C. Ustian, Navistar chairman, president and chief executive officer. "Our ability to achieve our goals without adding customer cost and inconvenience is a competitive advantage for International." Instead of SCR, International intends to address 2010 emissions requirements for its core applications through advanced fuel system, air management, combustion and controls. In addition, no incremental NOx after-treatment beyond the current technology will be required on any core International on-highway application in 2010. All MaxxForce on-highway diesel engines used in International's core applications will be fully certified to the EPA 2010 emission standards. "This approach will best serve our core customers who value reduced product and service complexity as well as business planning continuity through another period of industry uncertainty," said Jack Allen, president, International Engine Group. "Coming so soon after 2007 EPA standards, which mandated new engines and after-treatment systems that drove up the price of commercial vehicles, 2010 promises to be a less taxing time for International customers." Today, MaxxForce engine-powered International brand commercial trucks and IC brand buses in North America offer proven air- and fuel-management technologies, exhaust-gas recirculation systems and advanced after-treatment systems necessary to deliver uncompromised performance while meeting stringent 2007 U.S. EPA emissions standards for on-highway diesel engines.
"International's long standing record of innovation in the area of maintaining the performance advantage of diesel while addressing the environmental needs of society has driven International to develop best-in-class solutions in the areas of combustion, fuel system integration, air management and electronic controls," said Dr. Helmut Endres, vice president engineering and product development, International Engine Group. "This level of expertise will again be evident in not burdening our customers with SCR after-treatment.
By focusing on three core goals: providing environmentally sound solutions with improved performance, never sacrificing reliability or durability and preserving the fuel economy advantage of diesel, International continues to be a frontrunner in the production of near-zero emissions diesel engines and a leader in the diesel industry's efforts to improve the nation's air quality. MaxxForce is the signature brand of International on-highway Class 4 to Class 8 commercial truck engines. In North America, the MaxxForce product line ranges from a 4.5-liter V-6 to two new MaxxForce big-bore Class 8 engines that will launch in early 2008."
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Operating; Seven T444Es, One MaxxForce 7, One VT365, Four DT466s, One E-450 6.0 and one Mercedes in a C2. |
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Rich
Top Member
United States
5768 Posts |
Posted - 09/15/2008 : 7:03:03 PM
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From what I understand, not using urea is going to result in less fuel economy. Even with the cost of urea, it will apparently be cheaper to run a urea diesel as they will get better mileage. Also the upfront cost of a urea diesel should be cheaper as the systems will be less complex.
I guess we will have to wait until 2010 to confirm if this is the case or not, it sure will be interesting. |
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origcharger
Top Member
United States
619 Posts |
Posted - 09/15/2008 : 7:09:26 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by Thomas Ford 85-16
I get really upset when the all-knowing in the government start to totally run the market by picking on one style of engine in terms of emissions. As if they know what is best! Grrrrrr.
I tend to agree. The only reason Propane can be considered an "alternative" fuel is that over the years when it had to stand on its own two feet as a motor fuel it has'nt panned out for anything much more than forklifts in warehouses. Now under the guise of "global warming" and "going green", every other user of propane, including us poor folks that have to heat their homes, are expected to subsidize the purchase and operation of motor vehicles so as to promote more vehicles to be sold and more propane to be burned which will only help to drive the cost of the fuel higher and higher.
Taking a gasoline engine truck/bus which would historically run at least $5,000 cheaper than a diesel unit, converting it to run on propane and being able to charge $7,000 plus more for it than a diesel because the buyer will qualify for a government grant/subsidy in my view is special interests running amuck and milking the system. The diesel hybrid bus ventures would seem to be no more honorable, when the grants go away the price comes down and vice versa.
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Operating; Seven T444Es, One MaxxForce 7, One VT365, Four DT466s, One E-450 6.0 and one Mercedes in a C2. |
Edited by - origcharger on 09/15/2008 7:12:14 PM |
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BusBoy
Top Member
USA
2042 Posts |
Posted - 09/15/2008 : 7:10:17 PM
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I take it that Urea is, in essence, a waste product?
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Your Child's Safety is Our Business |
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origcharger
Top Member
United States
619 Posts |
Posted - 09/15/2008 : 7:22:08 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by Rich
From what I understand, not using urea is going to result in less fuel economy. Even with the cost of urea, it will apparently be cheaper to run a urea diesel as they will get better mileage. Also the upfront cost of a urea diesel should be cheaper as the systems will be less complex.
I guess we will have to wait until 2010 to confirm if this is the case or not, it sure will be interesting.
As you say, time will tell but I certainly question how a diesel engine using a urea system to meet emissions could be considered less complex. The current Maxxforce 7 has been said to be able to meet the 2010 emission standards with minimal changes and no urea. |
Operating; Seven T444Es, One MaxxForce 7, One VT365, Four DT466s, One E-450 6.0 and one Mercedes in a C2. |
Edited by - origcharger on 09/15/2008 7:23:15 PM |
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quinn
Active Member
USA
17 Posts |
Posted - 09/17/2008 : 06:09:21 AM
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| having worked with propane buses in the past they lack dependibility in cold climates.I hope new technoligy has fixed this issue. |
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BusBoy
Top Member
USA
2042 Posts |
Posted - 09/17/2008 : 5:11:20 PM
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| Someone at this workshop had asked that same question and they said yes! They are running propane trucks and buses in Alaska now. |
Your Child's Safety is Our Business |
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origcharger
Top Member
United States
619 Posts |
Posted - 09/17/2008 : 7:39:34 PM
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One of the limiting physical characteristics of liqufied propane is that it boils at 44 degrees below zero. In other words at -45 there will be no pressure in the tank, it won't flow without pumping, it won't vaporize and you could carry the propane around in an open bucket. Our northern neighbors have to bury the tanks to overcome this issue.
This reminds me of another winter issue we had with the fuel. The tank pressures are temperature dependant so we had to remember not to park the propane buses in the heated garage if they needed to be fueled before a trip. What would happen was the bulk tank outside in the cold may only have 15 lbs. of pressure, the buses tank parked in the heated shop may be at 60 lbs. of pressure. The pump on the bulk tank then struggles to overcome the pressure differential resulting in slow or no filling of the bus tank. |
Operating; Seven T444Es, One MaxxForce 7, One VT365, Four DT466s, One E-450 6.0 and one Mercedes in a C2. |
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oscar
Active Member
USA
47 Posts |
Posted - 09/18/2008 : 05:50:29 AM
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| Orig Charger - the Maxxforce 7 will not be the same in 2010 as it is today. They are incorporating EGR (purchased from Caterpillar) into their block and utilizing that as an effort to meet 2010 EPA emissions. The addition of EGR will dramatically reduce their fuel economy and it is still yet to be determined if EGR alone will meet the new EPA standards. Other engine manufucaturers implemented EGR in 2007 and have chosen Urea as an exhaust additive to improve fuel economy and limit the additional cost to the end user. International will have a totally new block with the Cat technology. It will not be the same ol' DT that we know today. |
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Topic |
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Pro Pane Blue Bird Vision
