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bbird66
Top Member
USA
881 Posts |
 Posted - 02/14/2006 : 05:28:20 AM
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| I read in the Agri View in Jan., (Ag newspaper here in Wis) and now in School Trans. News they are having problems with B2 diesel in Minn. with quality of it and problems with cold weather reliability of it. Have you been experiencing the problems yourself and can you shed some light on it? According to the articles there have been "Numerous complaints" They mandated use of it correct? but halted the mandate until the problems were addressed? did they? Very few operators use it in my area because we are all a little "wary" of it yet. |
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BBInt.10
Top Member
USA
1042 Posts |
Posted - 02/14/2006 : 6:36:35 PM
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UConn, where I used to drive, converted two of their Gilligs (city transit buses) to run off of biodiesel made from the used cooking oil from our dining halls. Last time I was up there, I asked the assistant manager how that was working out and he said not too well. So I guess problems with biodiesel are widespread. As all fairly new technologies, I bet the bugs get worked out over time.
-Dave |
If all your problems are behind you... you must be a school bus driver. |
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Brad Barker
Administrator
USA
874 Posts |
Posted - 02/15/2006 : 11:27:57 AM
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Do not be misled or confused into thinking Bio-diesel is cooking oil. That is old school thinking. Bio-diesel is made from virgin unused vegetable oil drived from various sourses such as canola and soy bean crops. It is mixed and blended with diesel fuel. Bio-diesel is a very good choice if you work with a company that produces virgin bio-diesel blends. Minnesota had some problems associated to improper blending at the refinery which have been resolved.
It substancially reduces pollutants normally associated with diesel fuel and can be purchased in various blends from 2% to 100%.
Tests have been run by Yellowstone National Park on several vehicles using 100% bio-diesel year round with no problems.
I presently am using a 20% blend of bio-diesel in eight stationary engines, and five off road vehicles year round with no problems what so ever. If you recall Park City was one of the hosting towns for the 2002 Winter Olympics. Last year we received over 700 inches of snow. This year is comparable and we have had temperatures as low as 26F degrees below zero . As a precaution, during the winter months I use a winter blended bio-diesel that consists of a 30/70 blend of #1 diesel/#2 diesel and 20% bio product.
OEM's are hesitant to support bio-diesel and are not at the present time reliable sources of information on its use.
Contact the EPA and Clean Cities USA for additional information or e-mail me at my business e-mail address bbarker@pcschools.us.
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Brad A. Barker |
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bbird66
Top Member
USA
881 Posts |
Posted - 02/15/2006 : 1:44:16 PM
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| Thanks Brad, do you use an fuel additive with the blend? and is there a "Cleaning action" of the soy blend at first that you had to contend with? changing filters out ect. I have heard that also. I have a driver who ran a 100% in his combine and when it got to 45 degrees he said it shut him down as it turned to vaseline, he added some regular #2 to it and he got going again but has never tried that again running 100% that is during harvest season. |
Were gonna miss you "Brent"..Good luck in "Heidi land"
"I know you miss the Wainwrights Bobby, but they were weak and stupid people...and that's why we have wolves and other large predators" .. The Far Side
"On a two hour delay when will my child be picked up??"
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cowlitzcoach
Advanced Member
USA
325 Posts |
Posted - 02/16/2006 : 11:15:07 AM
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Brad has pointed out there is a significant difference between bio-diesel and waste vegetable oil when it is used for fuel.
Without getting into all of the problems of WVO, the two most significant ones have to do with getting the WVO clean enough (you don't want a piece of a french fry going through an injector) and getting the WVO warm enough to flow through the system.
I am not sold on all of the benefits of bio-diesel either. My biggest problem is the fact it takes about five quarts of regular diesel to produce four quarts of bio-diesel.
I think the technology has yet to catch up with the media hype.
Mark O. |
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Brad Barker
Administrator
USA
874 Posts |
Posted - 02/16/2006 : 7:50:17 PM
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Prior to obtaining my winter blend, which came late in the winter season, I added one quart of diesel additive per one hundred gallons of fuel to lower pour point tempuratures. After receiving the winter blend all additives have ceased being added to the fuel. No additive is needed during warmer months.
Yes, as I understand, there is a cleaning action which takes place with bio-diesel in the tank and lines. I change the fuel filters at initial fill of bio-diesel then at 1/2 the normal interval then go back to the normal interval after that. I have had no problems and this was a precautionary action only.
As for taking five quarts of diesel to produce four quarts of bio I question the authenticity of this report and believe it was spurred from sources trying to discourage the use of an alternative non-petroleum based fuel. I had heard the same comment but have seen no actual proof from valid sources. Production of any product whether it be tooth brushes or bio-diesel always becomes more efficient as time goes by and demand increases.
Bio is in its infancy just like many other fuels were when they were first put into use. It only makes sense for each person to watch the long term use of all alternative fuels to see how they pan out in the long run. Proof has been given by Idaho State University that there is no possible way to produce enough bio product to convert all diesel vehicles on the road today since there simply is not enough farm land available in North America for crop growth.
I have other long term motives in mind to justify my use of the product. I am using bio diesel as one type of test in order to qualify for future federal monies towards other fuel related items. Proof of prior tests and fuel conservation practices and policies need to be in place for an agency making a request for federal dollars.
Also, I have never been one to just jump into something different because someone said it was good. I always conduct my own tests on all products that spark my interest, prior to making major purchases. Bio-diesel is a part of a test as well as putting into effect, this year, a no-idle policy for our school buses. Having documented proof of actions like this interests departments such as the EPA when applying for federal dollars and enhances my chances of obtaining funding. The side benefit of these tests is that I am actually saving money from my already tight budget. Since I do not operate in a "air quality non-attainment" geographical location I need all the help I can get to enhance my requests for future federal funding.
I appreciate everyones comments. |
Brad A. Barker |
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dkenny
Active Member
USA
14 Posts |
Posted - 02/19/2006 : 6:02:11 PM
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cowlitzcoach,
where did you get the info that is take 5 quarts dino to get 4 quarts biodiesel???
I make my own BD. I use 12 gallons of methanol to make 60 gallons of BD. I get about 5 gallons of methanol back.
I'm not counting the fuel need to grow the crops, harvest, press the vegy in to oil, transportation and other item of this nature. Most don't count them in the making of dino diesel either!!!
there is not conversion to using BD. period!!! I switch from 100% BD to 100% dino by changing where I fiil my bus up. that's it only.
my BD is made from WVO not virgin VO...
enough soap box..
BD does have problems with the cold! but so does dino diesel. BD is just at a higher temp. this depends on what type of oil its made from.
peanut oil is the worst..it gels around 45F. want to see a sample?
facts!!
it burns cleaner. except for NOX...
engines run better.. the cetane is higher for BD than dino
it smells better burning than dino.
can be used in any ratio from B0 to B100 without changing the engine.
http://biodiesl.infopop.cc
http://www.biodieselnow.com
-dkenny |
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Dravo
Senior Member
USA
93 Posts |
Posted - 02/20/2006 : 5:41:08 PM
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| A younge lady rolled into town with a school bus running on straight waste veg oil. She has a tank for regular diesel and one for SVO. The bus is started on diesel. When it warms up she switches to SVO. Before shutting down she switches back to diesel to clear the lines. She said until she gets enough money for a pump & filter setup, she's collecting the SVO in buckets and filtering it through a cloth. What would we do with out the young and adventurous! |
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Jeff Miller
Active Member
USA
25 Posts |
Posted - 03/18/2006 : 08:16:25 AM
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| We here at the town of Breckenridge in Colorado, have tried, and are currently using, Bio as well. We were intially using a B20 blend, but have now switched to B5. Our problem with the B20 was gelling of the filters. After much research by several independent labs, it was determined that due to incorrect mixing procedures,more specifically,incorrect temperatures of the different solutions at the time of mixing,the anti-gelling additives were falling out of solution and were the cause of the gelling(if you tested our bulk diesel tanks with a clear viewing cylinder, the bottom 5-9 inches of fuel was visibly clouded with white,suspended,debris. Of course, the bottom of the tank is where tanks draw the fuel from, so we were sucking it right from the cloudly layer. We have now switched suppliers and switched to the 5% blend and have had no problems to date.There is "cleaning effect"(also a "cleaning effect" on your wallet,as it is much pricier then "normal" diesel blends) from running Bio, but a few inital filter changes seems to take care of the problem. When we ran the B20 we had a cold snap where it didn't get above zero for several days, with lows around 30-40 below at night. At this time ALL of our diesel equipment failed!Yes, all! Everything from busses to plows and loaders. We also lost 4 out of 6 VP44 injectors on our cummins ISB powered busses.As you know,the VP44's are lubricated by the diesel fuel, so when the lift pumps fail(due to a gelled filter or for any other reason), and the pump loses fuel pressure, the pump more times then not fails. That cold snap withstanding, we also had many other gelling problems on moderate temperature winter days with the 20%blend.Now that we have a new suppiler, we are going to try the 20% blend again this summer and see if it was more of a supplier issue, rather then the 20% mix itself.I hope that in the future the Bio industry gets it's act together and it becomes a viable diesel alternative, as we as a town are dedicated to using alternative fuels and doing what we can to help the environment, but to absorb the cost of 4 VP44 injector pumps, and the labor involved in restarting apx. 40 other vehicles, is something that we certainly don't want to repeat. |
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CPCSC_TD
Top Member
USA
657 Posts |
Posted - 03/19/2006 : 11:17:53 AM
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Hey everyone
If you do choose to go with a bio or soy, definitely consider the RCI Fuel purifiers for your bus and your fuel tanks. We ran thes ein Mihcigan at many school systems and the investment paid off in time.
Check out this link to the information and contact them to come out and perform an area demo.
The amount of contamanents is amazing that is collected. Especially with bio or soy.
Detroit Public and Birmingham Public schools are two that I witnessed using these purifiers and they are amazing.
http://rcipurifier.com/ |
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ColoradoBusmech
Active Member
USA
10 Posts |
Posted - 04/01/2006 : 10:03:21 AM
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| We have been using B20 biodiesel in some of our buses due to an EPA grant to offset the cost. We have had continuous problems with the filters plugging on these buses (1991 Intl.) for the past two years. We use a Racor fuel/water separator so the filter is quick and easy to change. However this has been a real problem with some of the buses losing power during routes. We are currently trying a Fleetguard fuel/water separator on one of these buses as a test. The cost was not much more than replacing the heating element in the Racor and it is supposedly guaranteed not to plug (don't laugh). I do think that it would be wise to have our UST tested for water as a previous post stated. |
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Question for Mod...Bio-diesel
