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bwest
Administrator
United States
3820 Posts |
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Thomasbus24
Administrator
USA
4547 Posts |
 Posted - 06/01/2018 : 08:50:58 AM
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IMMI loves to crash test buses. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HRgBXg7wdqw
Look at the ejection from inside, the window frame appears to have failed. I don't know that laminated glass would have made a difference if we keep using the current window design. |
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bwest
Administrator
United States
3820 Posts |
Posted - 06/01/2018 : 08:59:08 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by Thomasbus24
IMMI loves to crash test buses. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HRgBXg7wdqw
Look at the ejection from inside, the window frame appears to have failed. I don't know that laminated glass would have made a difference if we keep using the current window design.
I agree there needs to be a better window. I think it will need to be designed around the laminate. I still believe this would be a better option. The two main reasons are cost and use. Cost is obvious, most schools can hardly afford to keep their buses current much less spend thousands more on belts. As most of us in the industry know, you won't get 100% use for belts. So, you will still have fatalities because students didn't use them. Who's that going to be on? Other things to consider are; what happens in a slow speed crash with a belt on vs. no belt? What kind of discipline issues are we going to have with the addition of ready made weapons? |
Bryan |
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Thomasbus24
Administrator
USA
4547 Posts |
Posted - 06/01/2018 : 09:03:46 AM
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Here's your low speed crash with and without: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fJvf8lfTTzU
This one was done about 10 minutes from my house. I'm hoping that a friend who works there can get me in to the next test they do.
We have been having the conversation here, I believe the belts are coming now. My biggest concern is this...when that first bus arrives on my lot with belts, where does it go? I'd have 1 out of 30 with belts. Yeah, that'll go over well. |
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bwest
Administrator
United States
3820 Posts |
Posted - 06/01/2018 : 09:59:51 AM
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| Interesting video. However, as usual, reporters get things wrong. Anyway, I would like to see the data not just a video that shows dummies flying around. |
Bryan |
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krmvcs
Advanced Member
362 Posts |
Posted - 06/01/2018 : 10:50:00 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by bwest
Interesting video. However, as usual, reporters get things wrong. Anyway, I would like to see the data not just a video that shows dummies flying around.
i like how they throw out scary statements like "kids are killed" and "thousands injured" without adding that those numbers (which they didnt provide) are out of millions of rides per year. Sure seat belts would make buses safer but if youre trying to get the most bang for your buck I think it would make more sense to put it toward where kids are more likely to get hurt or killed, and thats outside the bus. |
-Ken- |
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RonF
Top Member
867 Posts |
Posted - 06/01/2018 : 11:12:01 AM
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I wish I was allowed to post the inside video of a crash we had last year.
The bus was a TC2000 and got hit by a Ford F-150 towing a stump grinder who ran a stop sign and hit the bus in the left front wheel area. Watching the video at the time on the impact all of the kids on the right side of the bus had the bus moved out from under then and they all went sailing into the kids on the left side. Those that were injured were the ones against the left window because 3 other students impacted them. The other injuries were from students on the right side who hit the left side seats when the went flying across the aisle.
The truck was estimated at traveling 40-50 mph and the bus less then 10.
Seat belts would have most like taken us from 15 or so taken to the hospital to one or two. Only 3 injuries were considered more than minor but not severe. The driver who hit his head on the seat belt shoulder bolt and dislocated his shoulder from hitting the wall and two students with minor concussion of hitting the
windows.
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US Army retired CMBT |
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bwest
Administrator
United States
3820 Posts |
Posted - 06/01/2018 : 12:45:12 PM
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| RonF, my argument is "what kind of injuries would there have been if there were seatbelts?" Maybe, like you say, there would have been less. However, there are studies (of which I haven't access to at this time) that say seat belts cause more severe injuries in a slow crash than without. I, like others, think it's a forgone conclusion at this point in time though. We are running on a treadmill talking about this. lol |
Bryan |
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Troy87
Senior Member
United States
52 Posts |
Posted - 06/01/2018 : 3:22:19 PM
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| Seatbelts are inevitable, it's just a matter of when. The argument of yes or no has good and bad on every side. Seems to me, the important issue in the cases of the latest major accidents, have been the poor judgement and abilities of the drivers. Let's fix the drivers and the seatbelts will be irrelevant. |
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kummins
Active Member
41 Posts |
Posted - 06/02/2018 : 10:40:03 AM
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best all around solution... do away with busing and have parents drive their kids to school, passing legislation requiring parents to bring their own kids to school will force employers to allow/pay their employees to pick up & drop off their kids.
in the long run, it'd be cheaper than each districts annual busing budget, less pollution (both from emissions and waste oils), more fuel for everything else.
most of all, it'd eliminate the tragedy of multiple death/injuries from accidents due to cramming kids into a single vehicle. |
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td083
Senior Member
195 Posts |
Posted - 06/04/2018 : 03:02:00 AM
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| Hmm interesting , I for one don't think the whole budget with money for seatbelts will become a big deal , I could be wrong but if the feds regulate that it needs to be a nationwide policy I would imagine there would be some kind of federal help as far as monetary needs to implement this policy at least some maybe not all . In my opinion I do find it kind of odd at least how regulated everything is on school buses as far as inspections and other safety devices yet they don't require seatbelts . I'm not saying it would help every bus accident but its the type of situation where your looking for safer not completely risk free , yes there would be situations where occupants may fair better without seatbelts but I think statistics would show the majority of the time they help more than hurt . |
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bestguessrepairs
Active Member
24 Posts |
Posted - 06/04/2018 : 11:45:52 AM
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I have always wondered about airbags on buses in some sort of capacity. The obvious setback is cost. We could have 200 page thread on the pros and cons of seatbelts. But I would guess airbags would have a lot more pros than cons.
I would like to know the amount of accidents that happen on school trips compared to accidents on routes. Seems to me that a higher number happen on field trips, sports trips, activity trips and speed always seems to be a factor. Not saying the bus was speeding but bus was at a higher rate of speed. I know the amount of trips is getting to be more and more for schools each year. When does it stop? |
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bfaulkner
Senior Member
168 Posts |
Posted - 06/04/2018 : 1:44:45 PM
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I think air bags would be useless. So from what I know airbags are timed so that they are fully inflated right before you it it. it then deflates. On a bus there are multiple untimed impacts. I don't think we could make airbags that would be useful on a bus.
Also I just watched both videos. Why the hell are they testing this with 10-15 year old buses? |
Edited by - bfaulkner on 06/04/2018 2:04:06 PM |
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JRob
Advanced Member
207 Posts |
Posted - 06/04/2018 : 3:10:11 PM
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Airbags on all seats would be very difficult. Trying to calibrate the gyrosensor to account for varying loads and crash pulse differences make them impractical if not impossible for school bus passengers.
I was once asked what the most important safety item on a school bus was. The answer: Ridership (meaining simply the more kids that ride the bus the safer they are). Bottom line is if a child is on a school bus to and from school they are safer than any other form of transport. Any safety solution that diminishes ridership is a less safe solution. I believe lap/shoulder belts can improve safety but if the expense of adding them reduces the number of rides you have a worse problem than the one you are trying to solve. |
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Thomasbus24
Administrator
USA
4547 Posts |
Posted - 06/05/2018 : 05:17:08 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by bfaulkner
Also I just watched both videos. Why the hell are they testing this with 10-15 year old buses?
Cheapness. The old S-series was traded in and my dealer practically gave it to them just so they didn't have to deal with it. |
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bestguessrepairs
Active Member
24 Posts |
Posted - 06/05/2018 : 05:26:34 AM
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| I should have been more specific with airbag comment. I was thinking more along the lines of side impact air bags not air bags in the seats. |
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bwest
Administrator
United States
3820 Posts |
Posted - 06/05/2018 : 06:24:30 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by bestguessrepairs
I should have been more specific with airbag comment. I was thinking more along the lines of side impact air bags not air bags in the seats.
Why do that when you can put a window in there that doesn't break out so easy. I would bet my last dollar that the bus in the crash in chattanooga had tempered glass and the kids that died exited the bus via the student windows. |
Bryan |
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RonF
Top Member
867 Posts |
Posted - 06/05/2018 : 08:16:36 AM
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| How is laminated glass going to work if the window is down? |
US Army retired CMBT |
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Thomasbus24
Administrator
USA
4547 Posts |
Posted - 06/05/2018 : 08:29:19 AM
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TN construction standards do not specify if laminate or tempered glass is to be used.
News photos show either intact glass or no glass in the frames. There's no examples of broken but in-place glass, so I believe you are correct on the type of glass used Bwest. |
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bwest
Administrator
United States
3820 Posts |
Posted - 06/05/2018 : 09:52:21 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by RonF
How is laminated glass going to work if the window is down?
Our state doesn't allow windows down past 3" (I believe that's the measurement). So, if we had heavier window frames and laminate glass you'd have the problem solved. |
Bryan |
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dferrell
Senior Member
102 Posts |
Posted - 06/05/2018 : 11:13:05 AM
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| Seat belts are inevitable. It's only a matter of time until all 50 states will require seat belts. My personal opinion is that it has nothing to do with it actually being safer and everything to do with being politically correct. |
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bfaulkner
Senior Member
168 Posts |
Posted - 06/05/2018 : 12:18:34 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by dferrell
My personal opinion is that it has nothing to do with it actually being safer and everything to do with being politically correct.
I think you are right on this. Years and years of seat belts are good pounded into us. Then you get john public who is surprised and offended that buses dont have them. Not knowing anything about the construction or safety.
I want to study to compare child deaths between school buses and passenger cars. Then factor in plane crashes, abuse, and neglect. I bet that a child is far more likely to die by your hand then on a school bus. |
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bwest
Administrator
United States
3820 Posts |
Posted - 06/05/2018 : 12:43:51 PM
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| Common sense should tell us that you look at all the options and use the one that will make the most sense coming from all angles. Seat belts are fairly low on the list, in my opinion. |
Bryan |
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dferrell
Senior Member
102 Posts |
Posted - 06/05/2018 : 12:54:37 PM
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quote:
Common sense should tell us that you look at all the options and use the one that will make the most sense coming from all angles. Seat belts are fairly low on the list, in my opinion.
I completely agree. I am from California and unfortunately all common sense is completely thrown out the window here. Politics and being politically correct is much more of a priority than doing something that actually works and makes sense. |
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RonF
Top Member
867 Posts |
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bwest
Administrator
United States
3820 Posts |
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BJ Henderson
Advanced Member
USA
280 Posts |
Posted - 06/05/2018 : 3:48:58 PM
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| In the future, some bus somewhere is going to be on fire and children will die in the fire due to the fact that television has shown so many vehicles exploding. Small children, like head start age, do not buckle themselves in and will not be able to get out without an aide present. Unless egress training is provided by the fire department and it is hammered into the memory of drivers and aides.There will be mass panic and exit doors will be blocked by the panic. This will settle the seat belt question once and for all. |
CMTT,CMAT,CMBT |
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td083
Senior Member
195 Posts |
Posted - 06/06/2018 : 03:14:16 AM
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I understand both sides , all I'm saying is its a little obtuse to me buses are equipped tooth and nail with the latest most expensive and unreliable emissions equipment to make that .0000000000000001 % difference in ozone depletion but are not mandated with the most basic safety feature that was put into effect 50 years ago . Hell if you don't think they are safer tell your kid take it off by all means . Again not every situation or accident I'm sure there are some where kids would or may have been better off not wearing seatbelts but without cherry picking instances I'm sure stats would eventually show they are safer .
And I don't think the monetary cost would be completely left with school districts , likely it would just be a mandate to come on all new buses sold in US or something of that sort , if it were a upgrade requirement can almost guarantee our Federal Govt aka (endless supply of money lol) would help with the cost . Not saying I think it is a must to add seatbelts just the argument of cost doesn't work for me seeing all the other extravagant nonsense on the buses already that highly exacerbates the cost of ownership for very minuscule problems
. I do feel however school bus transportation is very safe , I for one feel my son is in good hands riding his bus , awesome driver of 30 years and most ive met in my job as a bus mechanic take pride in there profession . I'm just stating if we have all the other features and requirements its a hard argument as to why not to seatbelts imo . |
Edited by - td083 on 06/06/2018 03:38:32 AM |
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Sherm
Top Member
USA
621 Posts |
Posted - 06/06/2018 : 05:10:34 AM
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| The money argument against lap/shoulder belts never held any water with me, either. Simply delete some specs to make up the difference. I agree belts are coming; I also agree a tragedy will occur at some point with belts being a contributing factor in injuries and death. I'm not sure how the politically correct karma would work in that case. |
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earl1412
Senior Member
101 Posts |
Posted - 06/06/2018 : 06:48:27 AM
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| This may sound stupid, but has anyone thought to use restraint bars similar to roller coaster rides to keep kids locked to seats? The problem of combative use of belts is gone, and the bars could be released quickly if needed. |
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Sherm
Top Member
USA
621 Posts |
Posted - 06/06/2018 : 07:59:36 AM
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| I'm pretty sure that was considered at some point; a Google search may reveal a photo or two. However, who/how/when the restraints would be released would be an issue - especially with an incapacitated driver. I doubt if it was ever tested, but I'm sure a big bar would do as much or more damage to a little body as a belt. And the PC Police would consider this an inappropriate restraint as well. |
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Thomasbus24
Administrator
USA
4547 Posts |
Posted - 06/06/2018 : 09:40:57 AM
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| Yeah...wasn't it about 1999 or 2000 when some California company tried the bar on some buses? |
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bwest
Administrator
United States
3820 Posts |
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Titan1
New Member
7 Posts |
Posted - 06/07/2018 : 04:07:28 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by kummins
best all around solution... do away with busing and have parents drive their kids to school, passing legislation requiring parents to bring their own kids to school will force employers to allow/pay their employees to pick up & drop off their kids.
in the long run, it'd be cheaper than each districts annual busing budget, less pollution (both from emissions and waste oils), more fuel for everything else.
most of all, it'd eliminate the tragedy of multiple death/injuries from accidents due to cramming kids into a single vehicle.
Actually operating school buses lowers emissions from parents bringing their kids to school. Also, more children killed in passenger vehicles going to and from school when they could be on a school bus every year. |
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Titan1
New Member
7 Posts |
Posted - 06/07/2018 : 04:34:19 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by td083
Hmm interesting , I for one don't think the whole budget with money for seatbelts will become a big deal , I could be wrong but if the feds regulate that it needs to be a nationwide policy I would imagine there would be some kind of federal help as far as monetary needs to implement this policy at least some maybe not all . In my opinion I do find it kind of odd at least how regulated everything is on school buses as far as inspections and other safety devices yet they don't require seatbelts . I'm not saying it would help every bus accident but its the type of situation where your looking for safer not completely risk free , yes there would be situations where occupants may fair better without seatbelts but I think statistics would show the majority of the time they help more than hurt .
I don't see this happening. Presently there is NO federal funding for school buses. This would be an unfunded mandate left to local districts to figure out. |
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Thomasbus24
Administrator
USA
4547 Posts |
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Topic |
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Is There Another Way Besides Seatbelts?
