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BJ Henderson
Advanced Member
USA
280 Posts |
 Posted - 12/02/2013 : 10:48:32 AM
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I have a VT365 here that looks as if it is going to need rings. I haven't finished proving it out as of yet, going to have to do a comnpression test next.
My question is, has anyone done an in frame overhaul on one of these? I figure someone somewhere has, if you have any tips you could give me? How did it turn out, and so on.
I know it is a parent bore engine and all, if the cylinder walls aren't to scared up I can deal with that. |
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Bassman
Top Member
USA
558 Posts |
Posted - 12/03/2013 : 03:52:34 AM
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| What makes you think you need rings? We have 22 VT365's that average 200,000 but for the most part, the lower ends are OK.(That's the only part that's OK). What kind of symptoms? |
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sambrutay
Advanced Member
United States
271 Posts |
Posted - 12/03/2013 : 05:15:00 AM
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| There is no inframe. You will have to remove the engine to work on it. Remove and replace more likely. But bassman is correct. |
Bruce |
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BJ Henderson
Advanced Member
USA
280 Posts |
Posted - 12/03/2013 : 10:37:13 AM
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I know the engine ran low of oil for 3 to 4 weeks. (2 gallons low) It has a cranking sound like there are some cyclinders with compression and some with very little. I has a slow cranking speed. Will not crank cold. Even with a little starting fluid it is very difficult to start.
It uses a lot of motor oil. It smokes blue sitting still with wide open throttle. A lot of blue. :)
I haven't got back to it this AM, I got side tracked, but next test I'm going to do is a relative compession test with laptop, followed by compression test with a gauge.
My inital thoughts on this are that the engine running low of oil for the hours it did, did the damage to the engine. |
CMTT,CMAT,CMBT |
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Bus Tech II
Senior Member
121 Posts |
Posted - 12/03/2013 : 10:54:51 AM
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| These engines depend on oil pressure to run. If it was extremely low it would shut down. Blue Smoke could be injectors over/under fueling. Have you ever done injectors on this unit? How many miles are on this engine? I would get all if any codes out of the ecm. I probably wouldnt condemn thie engine just yet. VT365's are very expensive to operate. |
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BJ Henderson
Advanced Member
USA
280 Posts |
Posted - 12/03/2013 : 6:58:32 PM
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I have six of these in our fleet. I know a lot more about these boat anchors than I want to. I know they are expensive to operate compared to other engines. We speced something else but this is what the main office purchased, so we have to keep them running. (Thank God the policy was changed to our favor)
Bus TechII, I know the injectors run on oil pressure. I have not seen overfueling injectors ever cause blue smoke, only black, but I've been turning wrenches long enough to also know I have not seen it all. That's one reason I read this forum a lot. I have seen underfueling injectors cause some blue smoke but not like this. I know turbo seals leaking can also cause blue smoke, crankcase filters restricted can also cause blue smoke. The engine has good oil pressure. The hotter the engine gets the more it smokes.
Sam, why do you say I have to pull the engine to work on it? If the heads will come off, and the oil pan, an inframe overhaul can be done. I know the cam has so come out from the rear but as of yet, nothing is wrong with the cam. I'm not saying the engine block is not bad, I'm just trying to figure out what you are trying to tell me. I said in the original post, IF (note big IF) the cylinder walls are not scared up to bad, they can be honed. More than likely will need pistons as well. I can measure the ring lands.
Keep in mind, guys, I know this driver and some of the history behind this. It doesn't matter how many miles an engine has on it, if you run it low of oil enough, you damage the rings and possibly cylinders due to oil breakdown from overheating conditions and thus poor lubrication. Doesn't matter if the engine has 100 miles or 500,000 miles, the result will be the same, or very close. If my memory is correct (I'm posting this from home) the engine has 85k on it.
I haven't had a chance to get back on it yet,believe me,I'll rule out everything before I start tearing into this engine, and with the compression tests I will know a lot more. I will approach this diagnosis on a process of elimination and a pinpoint to the problem.
Don't take my questioning what you guys are pointing out the wrong way, any input is appreciated.
I know that with some parent bore engines, trying to do an inframe overhaul is a waste of time and effort, due to not getting a good seal on the compression rings. I am really hoping someone out there has done one in an International chassis. I'm sure someone somewhere has done one in a Ford 6.0.
As soon as I get back on it, (hopefully tomorrow) I'll post some of the findings around lunch time. |
CMTT,CMAT,CMBT |
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Bassman
Top Member
USA
558 Posts |
Posted - 12/04/2013 : 03:58:37 AM
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| Make sure glow plug relay is working and that you are flowing at least 100 amps on each side. If it has never had injectors...start there. They can cure a world of issues on the VT. Relative compression will also tell you if you have a rocker/cam failure. |
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mastertech
Advanced Member
274 Posts |
Posted - 12/06/2013 : 1:35:11 PM
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| To get the pistons out bed plate has to come off which means the engine has to come out. There is no access to the rods from the oil pan. These engine are pretty bad for cascade failures . If you get failure of one part it most likey wiped out everything else down the line. Pull the filters and look for metal. If you find low compression I would go straight to an engine pull and very close inspection or save some time/money and get a running complete. If it barely turns over with good batteries it must have something causing frictional resistance which means some serious destruction. |
Edited by - mastertech on 12/06/2013 1:37:55 PM |
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BJ Henderson
Advanced Member
USA
280 Posts |
Posted - 12/06/2013 : 3:04:31 PM
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Update: Ok, I knew I was most likely going to have to replace the starter. The starting RPM on the laptop was only like 125, from what I read on ISIS, it has to have a minimum of 130 RPM to crank. Installed new starter. Engine starts. Our laptop has been giving problems and the Service Maxx program just expired so we have only Service Maxx lite as of the moment. We will get the laptop (harddrive) fixed and then update Service Maxx. I cannot find a way to do a relative compression test on Service Maxx lite. I know the older versions of IH programs would do it, but it has been a while since I've even looked for the application to do a relative compression test.
Thanks, mastertech, this is what I needed to know. I've only had the oilpan off of one of these, but in remembering back (CRS syndrone sometimes) I do remember the bed plate now. These have been out of warranty since last March, and I expect problems, and read all the posts on them so I can learn more about them.
Yes, Bassman, I checked the glow plug current draw early on when I started the diagnostics on this, and even checked individually the old fashioned way with a headlamp also. I appreciate the memory jog, even if I had already checked them.
So as of now, we are going to release it to run. Now, I do know it has an oil consumption problem, most likely due to blowby. I'm thinking I know why it has a problem, (driver) but at this point that does not matter. I'm not real fond of assigning blame and throwing rocks anyway. We still have to repair the problems. I also was told the driver was not letting wait to start light cycle. Hopefully we have the driver educated (maybe) where she will do better in the future.
I was thinking if I could save some time and labor by doing an inframe overhaul on the engine it would be easier. Probably will go the reman route now when we have to take action on this engine.
I appreciate everyone's help and input on this. I've learned a lot from a lot of people here, and it only works well if information is shared, and followed up.
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CMTT,CMAT,CMBT |
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C.HARDY
Advanced Member
354 Posts |
Posted - 12/08/2013 : 2:17:30 PM
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| I have heard that Jasper does an outstanding reman on these and they are fairly bullet proof. Just what i was told by a friend and just throwing it out there. |
"Hardybusman" |
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Fastback
Top Member
1500 Posts |
Posted - 12/09/2013 : 04:13:14 AM
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| I will have to defer to the guys that have been there done that. BUT I am sure that one time when I was at our dealers shop, the tech had one head off of a VT 365 in chassis, piston(s) and rod(s) removed and was washing the cylinder(s) out with soap and water after honing. Easy or practical? Maybe doubtful, but that was all the warranty was going to pay him to do. |
Why yes, the ORIGinal CHARGER is a Fastback |
Edited by - Fastback on 12/09/2013 04:13:54 AM |
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bwest
Administrator
United States
3820 Posts |
Posted - 12/09/2013 : 11:09:56 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by Fastback
I will have to defer to the guys that have been there done that. BUT I am sure that one time when I was at our dealers shop, the tech had one head off of a VT 365 in chassis, piston(s) and rod(s) removed and was washing the cylinder(s) out with soap and water after honing. Easy or practical? Maybe doubtful, but that was all the warranty was going to pay him to do.
With that "V" configuration it looks like to me it would be darn near impossible to get to the rear cylinders. |
Bryan |
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BJ Henderson
Advanced Member
USA
280 Posts |
Posted - 12/10/2013 : 10:31:57 AM
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| Well, in the BE platform, it looks as if it would be doable. Remember, when you are removing pistons, once the piston clears the engine block you have a lot more room to remove the piston and conn rod. |
CMTT,CMAT,CMBT |
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VT 365 in 2007 BE200 chassis
