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pusd
Senior Member
51 Posts |
 Posted - 10/19/2012 : 4:18:41 PM
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About 5 weeks ago I put 4 new retread tires on the rear axle of a A3RE BlueBird. 2 weeks later the driver parked the bus after his route and within about 2 minutes the inner driver side tire blew out on the inner side of the tire. It blew from the bead out to the tread. couldn't find any obvious cause to make the tire do that. Seals and fluid level are good on the axle. Brakes were replaced last may. rear and front axles were aligned in July. The wheels, and leaf springs aren't bent, and no sharp edges anywhere. The tire dealer looked at it and couldn't come up with an explanation. So I put a new retread on, test drove it on the drivers route several times with no problem. Last night after his route when the driver parked the passenger side inner tire blew up the same way as the other tire 3 weeks earlier. Both tires are Michelin 11/22.5s with Bandag Hwy retread. I have 14 other retreads that came in the same batch as these 2 and none of them have any problems yet. I have pictures but I don't know how to post them. Anybody have any Ideas what the problem could be?
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Tb4020
Active Member
United States
27 Posts |
Posted - 10/19/2012 : 7:25:24 PM
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| Were all four tires Michelins? Had a similar thing happen on one of my grain trailers, took the lift axle valve off went to get a new one and came back to a blown tire! That tire was an off breed retread. Tire shop told us to not mix tires if possible when running retreads. In our district we run virgin tires with net-state pricing and casing credits we are only $50 more than a retread. |
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BJ Henderson
Senior Member
USA
162 Posts |
Posted - 10/19/2012 : 8:03:31 PM
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| pusd, did that casing come from your shop, or was it from somewhere else? Do you brand your tires? |
CMTT,CMAT,CMBT |
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pusd
Senior Member
51 Posts |
Posted - 10/20/2012 : 08:02:40 AM
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| All 4 tires were Michelins, and we do brand our tires for inventory. They all came from our shop. |
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slippert
Advanced Member
USA
310 Posts |
Posted - 10/20/2012 : 12:21:04 PM
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I'll have to ask my tire dealer again to be certain but seems like I remember him telling me about 75 percent of my Michelins were coming back as bad casings, He said they were bad for picking up stones and Because they were stone pickers, and stones would go through tread, then the salt and moisture would make the belting rust, he told me their recapper wouldn't even atempt to cap them with rusted belts.
I quit buying Michelins as new steers because of that. Never had that problem with any other brand.
Almost sounds like a brake heat issue when it is blowing out from the bead? if everything is good back there other than inner tires probably not. Have you tried a different casing brand? |
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pusd
Senior Member
51 Posts |
Posted - 10/20/2012 : 3:14:41 PM
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| We've never had a problem with rust, but the retread company here fails a lot of our Michelin casings because of dry rot. We bought a lot Bridgestone tires last year and most of them have been made into retreads. |
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BJ Henderson
Senior Member
USA
162 Posts |
Posted - 10/21/2012 : 12:03:02 AM
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Continental builds a decent tire, too. In your situation, I would look at the condition of the rims as well.
I would also gauge this unit after each route. Find out what the trend is, if there is one. I would do the gauge test on the tires hot and cold.
When using retreads, different rules apply than using all new tires. You must trust the retread dealer as to the processes, such as NDI inspections. |
CMTT,CMAT,CMBT |
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sambrutay
Senior Member
United States
189 Posts |
Posted - 10/21/2012 : 4:55:04 PM
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| Can't wait to here what the problem is on this one! |
Bruce |
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Fastback
Top Member
728 Posts |
Posted - 10/22/2012 : 05:22:00 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by pusd
All 4 tires were Michelins, and we do brand our tires for inventory. They all came from our shop.
How old were the casings?
I avoid recapping our casings because they are usually 5 plus years old by the time they need capping. We don't wear the recaps out any faster so the problem just multiplies. I much prefer to just trade in my casings and getting caps with "youthful" casings that came off an OTR truck. |
Why yes, the ORIGinal CHARGER is a Fastback |
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bwest
Administrator
United States
1828 Posts |
Posted - 10/22/2012 : 09:23:26 AM
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| I'm with tb4020, I just can't justify using retread when the cost of new is not that much more when you put in there what the state takes care of. I quit buying Michelin tire because they cost a minimum of $100 more than their nearest competitor. |
Bryan |
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eddo
Senior Member
USA
68 Posts |
Posted - 10/22/2012 : 09:38:01 AM
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I, too, am curious as to how old the casings are/were.
I will only retread a casing once- and then the retreads stay on my in-town trucks, and like Fastback, those casings come off of my OTR trucks. Old casings scare me, casings that weren't mine scare me enough to stay away from them.
What do you all pay for retreads? I can get a retread done for $110. A new Michelin (company forces us to use,) is over $400. At my prices: when you are talking about 4 drive tires on a single truck, that's over $1100 difference. |
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Offroadwolf
Active Member
41 Posts |
Posted - 10/22/2012 : 11:41:07 AM
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| I do run retreads on my in town stuff and have not had any issues, knock on wood. My questions would be what air pressure do you run them at and whats the age of your casings? Check the DOT number on the tire, the last group of 4 numbers indicates week of the year the tire was made. You shouldnt recap stuff over 5 years old, with that being said I try and cap my 3 year old tires. We have brutal summers here and when my tires hit the 4 to 5 year mark I get a lot of cracking in the sidewalls. With the new tires I have had great success with the Bridgestones, and when you have to buy new ones they are not as expensive as the Michelins. Are all the caps the same height? I have seen even new tires not be the same height. |
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pusd
Senior Member
51 Posts |
Posted - 10/22/2012 : 4:53:57 PM
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I've always been told by our tire dealer that casings over 5 years old wouldn't even be accepted by the retreader. So I checked the DOT date and it says 05. The retread stamp says 07/12. ?. I called the tire dealer and told him what I found and now him and some others are coming to our shop Wed to see the tires and the bus. He said that the tires should not have been retreaded but he still thinks that it might be a mechanical problem with the bus. I don't know. I have to say I've never checked the tread depth on every new retread to see if they were the same. I made an assumption, and I know assumption is the mother of all f*#k ups. We run all the tires at 110 psi.
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Offroadwolf
Active Member
41 Posts |
Posted - 10/23/2012 : 07:57:06 AM
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| Ok sounds to me like you have gotten tires back with bad casings. My retreader also will not accept casings over 5 years old, however the batch I got 6 months ago were all 7 year old casings. I didn't check them, went ahead and mounted them. After inflation there were cracks everywhere on the side of the tire. Then I checked and found they capped 7 year old casings. I called and they brought me newer ones. I did switch retreaders, here I use Redburn tire, they only retread my casings. I can still buy retreads from them if I don't have any casings. Takes me a little longer but this way I know where the tires are coming from. |
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Fastback
Top Member
728 Posts |
Posted - 10/23/2012 : 08:30:33 AM
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| We use Bandag, our retreader runs casings through something similar to an MRI/ultrasound/catscan machine before capping. We've never had a problem and I would say roughly 1/3 of our casings are rejected, the rest probably end up recapped on short haul dump trucks, refuse packers and the like. |
Why yes, the ORIGinal CHARGER is a Fastback |
Edited by - Fastback on 10/23/2012 1:07:45 PM |
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pusd
Senior Member
51 Posts |
Posted - 10/26/2012 : 08:09:18 AM
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| Someone from Michelin looked at both tires and said that that kind of tire damage has to be caused by excessive brake heat. They had pictures and videos that showed similar damage as are tires, and all were caused by brake heat. The brakes aren't that old and the drums aren't cracked or turning blue but we are putting all new shoes, drums, and spring kits on. Also replacing the wheel bearings, races, seals, slack adjusters, brake cans, gear oil, and rear tires. Then were going to test drive the bus several times and check the temperature of the brakes and tires and compare them to another bus of the same year and model. Thats all I can think of to try to make sure that the tires don't blow up like that any more. |
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eddo
Senior Member
USA
68 Posts |
Posted - 10/26/2012 : 11:02:56 AM
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what if you checked brake temps before doing all the changing? it might be nice to have a baseline figure for before and after, and even compare it now to how other buses are doing.
I'd still be willing to bet that old casings were your issue, but then I don't work for a tire company either. ;)
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pusd
Senior Member
51 Posts |
Posted - 10/26/2012 : 11:30:08 AM
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| We did check the temp with the currant set. The brakes were at 300, the wheels were at 140, and the tires were between 101 and 110. |
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slippert
Advanced Member
USA
310 Posts |
Posted - 10/26/2012 : 12:09:14 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by pusd
Someone from Michelin looked at both tires and said that that kind of tire damage has to be caused by excessive brake heat. They had pictures and videos that showed similar damage as are tires, and all were caused by brake heat. The brakes aren't that old and the drums aren't cracked or turning blue but we are putting all new shoes, drums, and spring kits on. Also replacing the wheel bearings, races, seals, slack adjusters, brake cans, gear oil, and rear tires. Then were going to test drive the bus several times and check the temperature of the brakes and tires and compare them to another bus of the same year and model. Thats all I can think of to try to make sure that the tires don't blow up like that any more.
I have yet to find a tire dealer or saleman that will admit fault on tire issues,LOL. It has always been that Truck/bus or whatever has got mechanical issues. always trying to put blame on other things than their tires.
So I would take a tire salesman or for that matter any product's salesman told me with a grain of salt. unless you are finding a mechanical issue staring you in the face. Just my opinion. |
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C.HARDY
Advanced Member
260 Posts |
Posted - 11/03/2012 : 08:21:36 AM
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| I have found Goodyear to hold up the best as far as cracking. I have old G159s that have been capped several times. Michelins just arent realiable as recaps. |
"Hardybusman" |
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bwest
Administrator
United States
1828 Posts |
Posted - 11/05/2012 : 09:37:44 AM
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| You know, it seams to me that the heat damage has to be from the casing's previous life. I can't imagine a school bus creating enough brake heat for a tire to be damaged. Just my 2 cents. |
Bryan |
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vfr700f2
Active Member
10 Posts |
Posted - 03/09/2013 : 06:24:14 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by pusd
I have to say I've never checked the tread depth on every new retread to see if they were the same. I made an assumption, and I know assumption is the mother of all f*#k ups.
Hey, it's a quiet morning so I'm reading old posts. 
I took over a badly-maintained fleet, and while moving some tires around, I was trying to match tread depths. Tire guy said matching tread depth on retreads is meaningless - need to measure outside diameter as different casings or variances in the capping process (or different cap shops) will lead to different ODs, even with matching tread.
I don't know if it's true, but it made sense and was an interesting point.
pusd, did you ever find the answer?
later
kevin
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matts4290
Advanced Member
215 Posts |
Posted - 03/09/2013 : 3:16:16 PM
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Here's what I can think of- two inners sounds like brake heat, or lack of bearing lubrication.
If your brakes are getting too hot and it's not a brake issue, make sure the rear wheels are 5 hand hole rims. They breathe better and I've had a fleet that says their brakes last longer with 5 holes.
If brakes are normal, make sure the casings are load range H. My A3RE weighs around 20k empty, and specs rear tires at 110 psi. LRG is only rated up to 105 psi.
As far as age, my retreaded has no limits on age. If you want tread on it, and it passes inspections, they'll cap it. With that being said, bandag's warranty is 2 years on the casing, 4 years workmanship. If they put tread on it, whether it is your casing or not, they are guaranteeing it to last two years, so if it separates in a year not related to maintenance or road hazard, they will adjust the remaining tread. If a workmanship defect occurs like a factory repair failure, or a bad splice- 4 years
Most casings will also be ran through a shearagrapher. This is a sealed chamber that has cameras in it. The tire is put in and subjected between pressure and vacuum. If there is a separation in the sidewall, most times the camera will catch it between pressure transition. This process takes about 3 minutes each.
As far as matching casings, it is a good idea. I've seen height differences among different brands of the same size, and even same brands, same size, different model. They do not necessarily always buff them down the same, for instance the second retread will buff off all of the old retread, so it may not exactly match a first retread. I still try to match casings, or at least match up their heights. |
We can't all be conventional!
http://www.youtube.com/user/matts4290 |
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pusd
Senior Member
51 Posts |
Posted - 03/10/2013 : 10:01:53 AM
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After the tire company, and the retread shop said that the problem was brake heat, and we eliminated any possible mechanical defects the only thing left to change was the driver. I asked our Director to change out his bus with one that has a retarder. The bus has been with a new driver for a few months now, and there have been no more problems with the tires. We did go though the rest of the fleet and found 3 more tires that were retreaded after 5 years and traded them back for credit.
quote:
Originally posted by vfr700f2
quote:
Originally posted by pusd
I have to say I've never checked the tread depth on every new retread to see if they were the same. I made an assumption, and I know assumption is the mother of all f*#k ups.
Hey, it's a quiet morning so I'm reading old posts.
I took over a badly-maintained fleet, and while moving some tires around, I was trying to match tread depths. Tire guy said matching tread depth on retreads is meaningless - need to measure outside diameter as different casings or variances in the capping process (or different cap shops) will lead to different ODs, even with matching tread.
I don't know if it's true, but it made sense and was an interesting point.
pusd, did you ever find the answer?
later
kevin
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Have you seen this befor,and why is it happening
