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efkimes
Active Member
31 Posts |
 Posted - 11/09/2011 : 07:21:01 AM
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| We have several buses that range in years from about 2008 and newer. They have been going back to the dealer constantly for the oil being dilluted from fuel. McCandless/International says that it has to be at 10% dillution before they will repair it. At 10% it is about 2" above the full mark. They tell us that we are one of the few districts having this problem and sometimes imply that we are causing the problem. We change our oil at 6000 miles so we are well within the range they want. We have our drivers shift the automatics manually like the service bulletin says. Repairs have been everything from updating the ECM program, injectors, injector pucks, etc. What we would like to know is are other districts having the same problems and what are the dealers in other states doing to resolve the problem. We have some busses that spent more time at McCandless than on routes last year. |
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slippert
Top Member
USA
630 Posts |
Posted - 11/09/2011 : 07:53:06 AM
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| You are not the only one having that problem there are numerous posts on here about the same thing, here we have only 1 of our 08's that seem to still make oil after having 100's if not thousands thrown at it under warranty, I've stopped hearing the your the only one line from my dealer, but it seems to take a long time for dealer to convince IH's warranty dept that there is a problem and get a go ahead from them to try to fix it. |
Edited by - slippert on 11/10/2011 06:57:20 AM |
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Fastback
Top Member
1500 Posts |
Posted - 11/09/2011 : 08:11:56 AM
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 Something don't sound right, the distance between add and full on our DTs is 3/4" and equals 3 quarts. Unless my math is fuzzy, 10% fuel dilution should measure roughly 3/4" above the full line assuming crankcase started out properly filled with fresh oil. |
Why yes, the ORIGinal CHARGER is a Fastback |
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slippert
Top Member
USA
630 Posts |
Posted - 11/09/2011 : 09:05:36 AM
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| I know what you are saying Fastback % doesn't seem to really add up, but the one bus in my fleet that is still having same problem measured 3" over the full line the last time it went to dealer for this and the oil sample I took out of it, to send in stated just over 14% fuel dilution when I got results back. Was about same % the time before and same level over full. when Bus was parked for summer didn't make extra oil until back on route this fall(imagine that). I'm looking at the test results right now. Right now were running this bus and going to test at 1/2 service interval and if looks good will test again at full mileage interval. IF it's not OK at 1/2 or full service interval, it's going back to dealer. At least this way it keeps the mileage from racking up on them LOL. |
Edited by - slippert on 11/09/2011 09:19:16 AM |
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efkimes
Active Member
31 Posts |
Posted - 11/09/2011 : 11:45:37 AM
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| Slippert, you said one of your buses is still doing this. How many do you have that have had the problem in the past? And what did the dealer finaly do to repair the problem? We figured there where others who had this problem and thought if we could get input from people in other states it would give us the abbility to dissagree with the dealer. Our dealer here has all of Colorado and Wy. so there isnt anywhere else we can take them. It isnt so much that they havent repaired it, thats frustrating. It is that they talk to us as if we are causing the problem. But also if there was a dealer that seems to have figured out what to do to repair the problem we would sugest that repair. And like you 10% is the minimum but they are always higher than that when we send them down. And we started using Cat sample services because there are only certain types of sample testing that the dealer will accept. Thanks for any and all input on this. |
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Bassman
Top Member
USA
558 Posts |
Posted - 11/10/2011 : 03:41:59 AM
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| Welcome to my world. Look down the posts to Maxxforce DT fuel in oil post for extensive posts from over the years on this issue. I am fighting with them to the highest levels and receive the same treatment. It seems they are not actually trained to fix them, but the reps sure are trained to make you think its you. My favorite is...You're the only one having this problem. Believe me, any IH engine that uses in cyl dosing to assist with regen is subject to this problem...but not all do it. I think we are getting close to some answers on this as I am forcing their hand on almost a daily basis..sending emails up to higher levels in the corporation. They are really trying on a couple of mine. I will post details when I am confident of their accuracy. Are yours the MaxxForce DT or the MaxxForce 7? |
Edited by - Bassman on 11/10/2011 03:43:05 AM |
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efkimes
Active Member
31 Posts |
Posted - 11/10/2011 : 04:37:41 AM
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| Ours are DT's What states are others in that are having this problem. Cold weather states? |
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eicsbus
Senior Member
Canada
126 Posts |
Posted - 11/10/2011 : 05:21:32 AM
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| again ic has put out another unproven engine to beat emissions, the bandaid effect..their engines may have worked on a test bench, but what we are seeing not in the real world. ic has never done any fallow-up on problems we have had, AS WE ARE THE ONLY FLEET HAVING THESE SITUATIONS, has anyone thought about a class action suit towards ic and their garbage research and development corporation. the only reason people buy i.c. is they low balled there price to flood the market, what you saved today on a new one, will kick you in the butt down the road..and realistically would you buy a 06 ic with a 6 liter eng.,,maybe if it was low low balled price..we usually buy buses to last 20 years, these i.c.'s wont last that long, and if they do they will kill your budget |
I.C. NO FUTURE
formally ,,,,wright11 |
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Bassman
Top Member
USA
558 Posts |
Posted - 11/10/2011 : 05:55:20 AM
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| We are in Maryland...hardly a cold weather state. |
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Wolf0r
Top Member
USA
2181 Posts |
Posted - 11/10/2011 : 06:23:00 AM
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| These aren't the same engine in the Fords I hope. What's the fix? |
“The good thing about science is that it's true whether or not you believe in it.”
Neil deGrasse Tyson |
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Bassman
Top Member
USA
558 Posts |
Posted - 11/10/2011 : 06:25:02 AM
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| What is the number of the bulletin that says to shift automatics manually? I have never heard of this. Of all the bizarre things I have seen International throw at this problem, I have never seen this. |
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slippert
Top Member
USA
630 Posts |
Posted - 11/10/2011 : 06:56:41 AM
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I have been fairly lucky so far(knock on wood) I have four 2008's and so far only the one has had this problem except for the fact it didn't seem to show up till around 90,000 miles the other 08's have 70,000 plus, 105,000 plus, and 110,000 plus. and other than (i am told)they are some of the first ones (07 emission engines) produced and the one that has the highest miles broke a pin that holds a cam follower in place and tore up the cam and a few other parts luckily it was still under warranty dealer said they had about 7-8 grand in it when done.
Obviously, there is a problem here as the number of posts about this topic. The one I have went to dealer back in Feb 2011 and I was told they had to replace Lift pump first, then there was a laundry list of parts/things service manager told me they had to do/ck/change including cking DPF for plugging(at that time it wasn't plugged enough or so IH warr TOLD dealer), three wks later IH allowed them to replace Injectors. I have been monitoring this since and seemed to be OK last part of school yr, over summer bus basically didn't move until fall school started. then appeared to be making oil again. Luckily the dealer I have is aware of situation and seems to be trying to help.
This time it's at shop Service rep sez's that IH has been having them clean DPF's(bake, Blowout),on buses that have come in in the last 8-9 months after mine was in there last Feb regardless of the way the numbers look or how plugged the program tells them it is. I don't have a clue what else they will have to try? We will see
Good luck??? |
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Bassman
Top Member
USA
558 Posts |
Posted - 11/10/2011 : 07:10:01 AM
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| Another issue with this is relying on the dealers to fix it. After all of my communication with corporate, there are still no iKnow bulletins to help dealers with the issue on a comprehensive level. Then, the dealer files a case with tech central. Tech central responses vary widely depending on what level tech gets the question (and it is a different tech each time). Some of my favorites are..."change the lift pump." This gets the customer off their back for several months. I chime in and say NO! dye test the fuel pump and it stops the charade. "Update the programming and return to the customer is another favorite." I had one that got one injector one trip and then they ordered another injector the next trip. I intervened and they cleaned the DPF as well. Then, took the same bus back 2 or 3 more times and they changed the whole set of injectors. Still no progress. I sent another one back and they put in 6 injectors right away...no help...still builds. Then, if the dealer doesn't respond within 24 hours, they close the case and don't think about it anymore. Real good. The problem is their not taking "ownership" of the problem. If they insist on working through dealerships, they need to assign it to one high level tech and make all similar situations go through him...and make him follow up with direct contact with the all of the customers experiencing this issue until completely resolved. IMHO the solution is to put a retrofit "downstream" doser like on the 2010 emissions MaxxForce DT on it and change the programming to quit dumping fuel into the cyl on the exhaust stroke but I am willing to work with them as long as it is a good faith effort. Right now I am taking one back to the dealer and their proposal is to update the programming to the most recent attempt to fix it which I know will do nothing (This bus has been to the dealer 9 times in 3 1/2 years for IH ordered reprograming). Then, they don't even respond to my email clarifying their recommendations. Completely typical. Don't let anyone tell you that you are the only one. In this county, I have several contractors experiencing the same thing as well as numerous Penske trucks. I made corprate people aware it at the higest levels over 2 years ago. |
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efkimes
Active Member
31 Posts |
Posted - 11/10/2011 : 07:58:58 AM
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This is not a bulletin but a suggestion from the dealer as to recommended driver procedures.
Recommended driver procedures for buses to help increase exhaust temperatures in cold weather operation with Maxxforce engines under light load conditions.
Start unit and just turn on windshield defroster. (fan on low speed) Perform pre trip inspection. After pre trip, increase blower fan speed to maintain a clear windshield.
Manually ship transmission to lowest gear possible to maintain desired road speed and maximum RPM (preferably above 2000rpm).
Just prior to picking up your first rider, turn on all other heaters as required to maintain comfort.
After you have riders on board you may go back to using D on the transmission shift selector or continue with step 2.
after riders are off loaded, return to using step 2 all the way back to the terminal location.
We have had a driver following these procedures to no avail as the bus is back at the dealer.
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slippert
Top Member
USA
630 Posts |
Posted - 11/10/2011 : 08:41:02 AM
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obviously, this is a wide spread problem just curious about numbers/percentages? I know here we were purchasing 4-6 buses a year til this year, I was told this yr to be the last for a few (4-5)years with budgets the way they are in Mich. So anyway I have 1 out of 4--08,s so far making oil. so basically 25% of them, is this what you guys are seeing or are you having a problem with a higher percent or all of of your buses in these years of build? and this one didn't show up till higher mileage have your DT's been doing this from the time they were new?
Maybe I was lucky to get Bluebirds in 2009 and then we got IC's for 10,11, and now 12's and other than the exhaust manifold gaskets on the 2012's not being installed correctly at factory and developing a leak at Number 4-6 cyl the 10's,11's and 12's have been good so far |
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Bassman
Top Member
USA
558 Posts |
Posted - 11/10/2011 : 11:27:25 AM
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| 2010 emissions MaxxForce DT's should not develop the problem as they have a downstream doser (it's in the back of the exhaust manifold). Sorry, but 2010 emissions MaxxForce 7 still uses in cyl dosing. I have 10 2008 MaxxForce DT's. Currently 5 of the 10 will make over an inch of oil in under 10,000 miles. A couple will make 3-4 inches in 2,000 miles. All 10 of them experience dilution to some degree. The higher the daily mileage and the more steady running a bus does, the greater likelyhood it has to do it. They seem to do worse in cold weather. I have one bus that has never made its own run this year. I switch it to a run that runs heavy miles and send the regular bus back to the dealer. By the time they get it in and go back and forth with tech central for several weeks, the other bus has grown several inches of oil and its time to switch. In a few more weeks, the same thing repeats. One of these two buses has been at the dealer steadily from Sept. til now. I am not letting up until I get action that fixes the problem. |
Edited by - Bassman on 11/10/2011 11:30:01 AM |
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bcressey
Senior Member
USA
114 Posts |
Posted - 11/10/2011 : 3:51:50 PM
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I remember a nice letter from Detroit Diesel Corp. to owners of Mercedes engines stating they were aware of an oil consumption problem and giving them two options for resolution. Makes me feel pretty proud to be a DD dealer...acknowledge the problem and fix it.
And yes, downstream dosing, done on Detroit and Mercedes since 2007 since they thought of potential washdown and oil dilution issues in the event of malfunction. |
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Bassman
Top Member
USA
558 Posts |
Posted - 11/11/2011 : 04:07:45 AM
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| Yes, acknowlege the problem and work with customers. IH has a culture of not saying...yes we know we have a problem and we're working on it. That is one of the things that sticks in customers craws. The same thing happened at the beginning of the VT365 debacle with injectors/egr coolers. Over and over again! |
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efkimes
Active Member
31 Posts |
Posted - 11/11/2011 : 06:01:40 AM
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Bassman,
Would you contact us direct? E-mail is: kimes_eddie@svvsd.org and phone number is 303-682-7360
One of our buses is a 2010 with a DT, it still has the problem. I am not sure of the engine year though and it is at the dealer now. It is verry possible it is an older year engine. We have not heard of putting the retrofit "downstream" doser in place and would like to ask you questions about that. |
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Bassman
Top Member
USA
558 Posts |
Posted - 11/11/2011 : 07:27:08 AM
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| It's not possible to do that. I am suggesting that IH engineer it to retrofit. |
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mailman
New Member
4 Posts |
Posted - 11/13/2011 : 04:23:56 AM
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| Took delivery of 2-2012 Intl Durastars in Sept w/2010 emmission MaxxForce 7 engines and manual trans. Fuel economy in our application is approx 7mpg compared to our 2007 VT365s at approx 9mpg. MaxxForce was advertised by Intl to get 10-13% BETTER economy than previous VT365s. They have been reprogrammed once to try and reduce the number of regen's which was at every 35 miles! Should be over 100. Now talking about wrapping the DPF with some sort of insulation to retain the heat as we ar in MN and winter is coming soon. Anyone else hear of this or experiencing poor fuel economy? |
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efkimes
Active Member
31 Posts |
Posted - 11/16/2011 : 04:23:48 AM
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| One of the members on here told us some of the repairs that his dealer was able to do to fix this problem on his bus. We talked to our dealer and we are waiting to hear back from them about doing these repairs. When they removed the DPF it was pluged. So, once we get word that they will do the recomended repairs we will post what the repairs are. Just want to wait until we know. |
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mailman
New Member
4 Posts |
Posted - 11/16/2011 : 07:34:19 AM
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| One of ours is in the shop this AM (11-16) with fuel in the oil. Truck has 37,000 miles on it. Engine warning light came on. Truck was built late July 2011. |
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BJ Henderson
Advanced Member
USA
280 Posts |
Posted - 11/18/2011 : 2:35:43 PM
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We own 6 buses with the VT365 engines. Three 2007s and three 2009s. We are seeing the same issues with fuel in oil. Plus injectors going out. I agree with Bassman, IH needs to take ownership of the problem in a better manner. We have great dealership support from Southland IH in B'am, Al. According to what our dealer service mgr is telling me, IH is very picky about replacing defective parts on these engines.
Until IH corp steps up to the plate and understands that we are all in this together, they are slowly destroying their business. IH will not be able to substain this present trend and stay in the bus market. |
CMTT,CMAT,CMBT |
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schaefferoilguy
New Member
3 Posts |
Posted - 11/18/2011 : 3:44:06 PM
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I am a sales rep for Schaeffer Oil, not a mechanic. I had noticed that their 4 - MAXFORCE 7, 2009 (vt365) engine oil analysis had several problems that I had never seen before.
There is high oxidation, along with fuel dilution (less than 5%). In addition, there is high iron, high aluminum, low viscosity (20 wt), low TBN after very short oil change intervals.
Until International fixes their problems, I think they should change oil every 2-3000 miles.
Normally, Schaeffer oil change intervals should last 20 - 24,000 miles, so I know this problem has to be extreme.
One of the engines has an iron content of 750 ppm.
Do you have any suggestions as to what, besides the fuel dilution problem, may be going on in these engines? |
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Bassman
Top Member
USA
558 Posts |
Posted - 11/30/2011 : 06:01:44 AM
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Update: IH has achieved some level of success on one of the 08 MaxxForce DT buses (130,000 miles) we are experiencing oil building on. This bus has been in and out of the dealership for months for this problem. They have replaced a ton of stuff and reprogrammed the ECM with the updated programming but none of this made any difference. The last changes made to the bus on the trip before the success was that they 1) replaced the Intake Air Temp sensor 2) replaced the Intake Air Pressure sensor (or MAP sensor) and 3) Blew out the DOC (again) and 4) Cleaned the DPF (cooked it). After the repair, the bus built 1/2 inch on the stick in the first 3 days, built another 1/4 inch on the stick in the next 3 days and then leveled off. The excessive smoking has stopped and no more building for now. This is the exact (building) pattern that the other bus that they fixed did when we got it back in the spring.
Let me also add some details: The IAT sensors are picking up alot of carbon out of the intake manifolds. The hole in the MAP sensors are clogging up from the soot as well. These sensors are easily removeable on the side of the intake manifold. They can be gently cleaned easily too. The DOC was again surface plugged and the DPF failed its restriction test at the cleaner. I have since learned that the company used by our dealer has a pneumatic cleaning that they use as a first step and then if it still doesn't pass the numbers, then they cook it in the kiln (FSX system). This DPF was cleaned earlier this year but I don't know if it received the full treatment. The mechanic commented that this was the best loooking one he has seen come back.
My conclusion (opinion only): the best thing to fix your oil building is to 1) make sure the IAT and MAP sensors are clean or replaced 2) COMPLETELY clean the DPF and 3) remove and completely blow out the DOC. Then, don't panic if you see a bit of oil building at first.
This is also confirmed by the fact that the bus that we REPLACED (with a new part) the DPF and the DOC on has functioned flawlessly with no dilution since that day.
Now, I fully expect that the problem will return when the soot loads build again in the DPF and the DOC especially if the bus stays on a higher speed run. But at least there's progress on another bus for now! |
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willism
Advanced Member
United States
250 Posts |
Posted - 11/30/2011 : 06:39:32 AM
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| But bassman has anything really been fixed or is this a patch till these buses fall out of warranty? Right now Ive got 1 unit up at the dealer 2 and a half weeks and another with a dead hole limping along till I get the other one back cause there both lift buses and I'm out of spares. Also we went through the dpf and doc replacement a little while back and really didn't get anywhere they were fine for a little while but the problems just come full circle. If I can find the picture I'll post what our intake temp sensor looked like and post it. |
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Bassman
Top Member
USA
558 Posts |
Posted - 11/30/2011 : 08:15:58 AM
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| Agreed! Boasting about 8% fuel in oil really doesn't sound that great, but it is nice to see progress on the insane oil level rising. And I am proud to have forced IH to actually address it (even though this bus has been back and forth to the dealer for this since April). Right now, I would not buy a bus from IH that uses in-cyl dosing. I refused to allow them to bid the 2010 emission MaxxForce 7 because of oil change interval and because of continued use of in-cyl dosing. But IH has gone to downstream dosing on the 2010 MaxxForce DT and those units are proving to be better. IMHO, the full fix would be to get rid of the in-cyl dosing on the 07 emissions buses and go to a segmented DPF that can be taken apart and cleaned more easily and efficiently than the one they use on buses (that has flanges). |
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willism
Advanced Member
United States
250 Posts |
Posted - 11/30/2011 : 08:43:18 AM
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| I agree also just throwing this out here heard from a good source that I guess now there seeing major engine troubles cropping up like lifter and cam failures.One thing that still troubles me is there has to be wear due to the fuel dilution out of the 70 units we have 3 out of 5 of the 08's are full size lift buses after 1 of those goes down I'm out of options and with warranty slowing the IH dealer turnaround time all I can say its going to be a grand winter just need some more 6.0L issues and we can have a well rounded mess. |
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Bassman
Top Member
USA
558 Posts |
Posted - 11/30/2011 : 09:10:16 AM
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| Just a tip....I am having my guys change all VT365 injectors after 60,000 miles. Then at least they run good! They still have many other problems....EGR coolers, turbos, IDM wiring issues, 2 recent head gaskets, a water pump, glow plug relays, plugged EBP sensors, IDM failures, EGR valves, etc. But it is nice to have them hitting smoothly on all 8 cyls. |
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willism
Advanced Member
United States
250 Posts |
Posted - 11/30/2011 : 09:31:18 AM
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| Fortunately we don't have any vt365's most of the fleet is dt466 which are fine its just the maxforce and e450's with 6.0L that cause the most issues got one of each sitting in my shop now. |
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bwest
Administrator
United States
3820 Posts |
Posted - 11/30/2011 : 11:34:11 AM
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| This whole thread is just insane to me. Why are we all going through this? I wish the EPA (Check that), Congress! would come out and work on this junk to get a feel for what we are going through. At least maybe they would be informed before they let these morons make rulings that drive up costs and drive us insane. |
Bryan |
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slippert
Top Member
USA
630 Posts |
Posted - 11/30/2011 : 12:18:11 PM
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Basically the bus that we have been having same prob with came back this time with same sensors replaced and brand new DOC and the DPF baked out on it. sounds identical to what Bassman said his had done to it above. we'll see if we have similar results, with oil production as bus runs on route. I just don't like seeing an engine hit the three inch or more level above the full mark!!! saturated with fuel.
and West I don't think I want the morons your talking about coming out to work on mine. they can screw up enough just setting at their desks. Way to much Gov't in most things we do already, public or our private lives.
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bwest
Administrator
United States
3820 Posts |
Posted - 11/30/2011 : 7:15:22 PM
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| lol, I understand! I'm just trying to figure out what is motivating these guys. I would think if they knew what we go through out here they would let up a little. Think? Or maybe not. |
Bryan |
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Bassman
Top Member
USA
558 Posts |
Posted - 12/02/2011 : 04:31:02 AM
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| Maybe when Al Gores speaking days run out he can fly around the country and clean all these DPF's for his next millions. |
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IBTMech
Top Member
USA
973 Posts |
Posted - 12/02/2011 : 2:46:25 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by bwest
This whole thread is just insane to me. Why are we all going through this? I wish the EPA (Check that), Congress! would come out and work on this junk to get a feel for what we are going through. At least maybe they would be informed before they let these morons make rulings that drive up costs and drive us insane.
Heh, the Federal Government. Let us help you!
All this electronic crap and multiplexing is supposed to make diagnosing problems easier for us.
Yeah. RIGHT!
It used to be when a diesel was acting up or running poorly you could pinpoint the problem in under 15 minutes and probably fix it in less than that.
Nowdays it seems it'll cost you a day to figure it out, even with the latest software and a new laptop and another day or two to fix it.
I am thoroughly discouraged.
Glad I'm retiring soon. |
If it doesn't fit, FORCE it.
If it breaks, well, it needed replacing anyway.
Pullin' wrenches for 45 years. |
Edited by - IBTMech on 12/02/2011 2:53:04 PM |
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Topic |
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Maxxforce oil dillution from fuel
