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Brad Barker
Administrator

USA
832 Posts

Posted - 12/15/2011 :  9:15:48 PM  Show Profile  Visit Brad Barker's Homepage  Click to see Brad Barker's MSN Messenger address  Reply with Quote
The techs at the IC dealerships are just as frustrated as you. If a bus is under warranty, repairs can only be done by following the engineers recommendations if the dealer wants to get paid. Very specific steps have to be followed. If the dealership thinks they know an alternative remedy and do it for you without the blessing of the engineer, the dealer pays for it out of their pocket. And yes, the government screwed it up for everyone.

Brad A. Barker
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Bassman
Top Member

USA
505 Posts

Posted - 12/16/2011 :  05:12:29 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Brad, the "operators" manual for the 2010 emissions MaxxForce 7 gives charts for oil change interval based on mpg (logical) but then adds a new twist. If the avg highway speed is "higher", they want the oil changed "sooner." This is backwards from the old days when they extended oil change intervals for highway operation. I asked for a reason for this for months and finally got an answer from the engine group that "higher speeds means higher loads." This is a false statement and if it were true, would have been true for every engine for the last 30 years. Further, neither the 2007 or 2010 DT reads that way nor does the 07 MaxxForce 7. Let me know if you ever run across someone who can give a real answer to why this chart was "changed" and not advertised by sales. I did not allow them to bid this engine due to their reduced service interval and their in cyl dosing. To me, the interval they are requesting makes sense in light of the fuel dilution problems on in-cyl dosing engines at higher speeds, but not because of engine loading. IH says fuel dilution was not the reason for the change. I would love to know the truth. Thanks.

Edited by - Bassman on 12/16/2011 05:13:39 AM
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RichBusman
Advanced Member

448 Posts

Posted - 12/16/2011 :  08:09:16 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
The local IC dealer here sponsored a meeting here yesterday, and did a short presentation on the 2010 engines. I was quite surprised at how they negatively spoke about their 2007-2010 engines, then tried talking up the 2010 "solution" by mentioning the new dual turbos, improved EGR, modified DPFs, downstream dosing on the DT, and more passive regenerations.

No mention of fuel economy, which was something that used to be a hot button issue.
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JRob
Senior Member

176 Posts

Posted - 12/16/2011 :  11:05:38 AM  Show Profile  Visit JRob's Homepage  Reply with Quote
They have been put in a tough spot. Navistar has been open the past few quarterly reports about something additional being added once the credits go but they have been very unwilling to detail what it is though it would appear to be some method of SCR. I don't know what they're told behind the scenes but it appears the dealers are hung out a bit presently.

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Bassman
Top Member

USA
505 Posts

Posted - 12/20/2011 :  05:59:44 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Update: another successful bus - DPF machine was down where ours are cleaned and so we got an exchange DPF through IH along with blow out of the DOC and oil building trend has stopped. On this bus, the IAT and MAP sensors were not replaced and yes they are crudy but the bus is still succeeding. Also, I have another bus which has been my most chronic builder over the last few years into the dealership now. After cooking, the DPF would not come down into spec and will have to be replaced. I now feel safe to say that my oil building problems have consistently been related to soot build up in DPF in conjuction with surface plugging of the DOC's. My advice is to thoroughly clean the DPF and blow out the DOC at earlier intervals to keep in cyl dosing buses from building fuel in the crankcase. This is 5 buses with oil building problems fixed (for now) with either new DPF's (the one I bought) or with thorough DPF cleaning or an exchange DPF from the dealer along with DOC clean out at the same time. The best one (cleanest oil) is the bus with the new DPF and DOC. I also believe that we will find only certain machines (like the FSX) will be able to do the cleanng on this type of DPF.

Edited by - Bassman on 12/20/2011 06:01:29 AM
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Mechan1c
Top Member

USA
663 Posts

Posted - 12/20/2011 :  07:17:27 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Bass,
So are they cleaning the cruddy sensors? Do you know what they are measuring to determine if the DPF is within specs; and what that spec is?

Also, Do you know how much old oil remains in the '07 MFDT after an oil change?
Thanks.
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slippert
Advanced Member

USA
354 Posts

Posted - 12/20/2011 :  07:47:32 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Bassman, Did you have any issues with egr coolers leaking on your oil builders prior to yours making oil? Maybe if i took the time to reread post(s) about this I would answer my own ? anyway. I was told by my service rep recently, that he felt the issues IH had with fuel dilution had to do with those coolers leaking,then the reprogramming to try and correct cooler probs, ect., had caused DOC's and DPF's to partially plug with leaking coolant and probably should have been cleaned out at the same time the coolers were replaced and or the reprogramming was done. of course hindsight is always 20/20. just curious as the bus I had oil production in had the coolers replaced the year prior to the oil/fuel issue showing up and once just after we purchased bus both times in warranty. So far I have had 2 of the four 08's cleaned and have the others on the list to be done shortly. all these buses have close to or a little over 100,000 miles on them and have had EGR coolers replaced at-least once and reprogramming done on all

I assume their measuring the flow or amount of pressure difference it takes to blow through the Dpf's the paperwork I got on my the last one(which at this time seems to be missing)I believe read 4.5 was good, basically new or clean and anything over 6.0 was junk or needed replaced there was test data for before and after cleaning in between those numbers.

Edited by - slippert on 12/20/2011 10:13:26 AM
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Fastback
Top Member

905 Posts

Posted - 12/20/2011 :  07:48:29 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Mechan1c


Also, Do you know how much old oil remains in the '07 MFDT after an oil change?
Thanks.




5 quarts old oil remain after draining.

From the 07 emission Maxxforce DT manual;

Lube system capacity (including filter)
28 L (30 qts US)

Lube system capacity (overhaul only, with filter)
33 L (35 qts US)


Why yes, the ORIGinal CHARGER is a Fastback

Edited by - Fastback on 12/20/2011 09:24:03 AM
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Mechan1c
Top Member

USA
663 Posts

Posted - 12/20/2011 :  10:19:45 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
"5 quarts old oil remain after draining."

Thanks Fastback.
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Bassman
Top Member

USA
505 Posts

Posted - 12/20/2011 :  12:24:18 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
We have had very few EGR coolers leaking antifeeze on MaxxForce DT and we catch them very early. We have had many that have clogged EGR cooler fins with carbon and thrown codes/trouble lights regarding insufficient flow and have been replaced because of that. We have also observed some leaking externally on the egr valve a little...but really not many which would even require the antifreeze to need to be filled. I don't think that in our case, the AF leaking into the exhaust has had much to do with it.
As far as the sensors go, it is hit and miss. Sometimes they tell the tech to check them and sometimes not. Since we felt they might be part of the issue and they are easy to access, we have been keeping an eye on them ourselves.

If you go to fsxinc.com, you can see a video about how the DPF's are tested/cleaned. It is a manometer reading in inches while flow is going through the DPF on the tester. I don't have the numbers but I heard that 4.7 was over and not acceptable recently. When I spoke with a tech that does the cleaning once, he gave me several different ranges but I didn't retain all the data.

Try this chart for data. http://www.fsxinc.com/site1/BaseLinesNScience/CurrentBL.html


Edited by - Bassman on 12/20/2011 12:28:48 PM
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IBTMech
Top Member

USA
973 Posts

Posted - 12/20/2011 :  4:13:15 PM  Show Profile  Visit IBTMech's Homepage  Reply with Quote
I am reading all these posts regarding DPF issues, oil and coolant issues and am thankful that we have experienced none of those problems yet.

Eight Maxxforce DTs running fine.

Over 300K miles cumulative so far.

Keeping fingers crossed.

If it doesn't fit, FORCE it.
If it breaks, well, it needed replacing anyway.
Pullin' wrenches for 45 years.

Edited by - IBTMech on 12/20/2011 4:17:18 PM
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Bassman
Top Member

USA
505 Posts

Posted - 12/21/2011 :  03:55:15 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
We have 10) 2008 models with 1.3 million cumulative 130,000 avg. per bus.
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C.HARDY
Advanced Member

338 Posts

Posted - 01/16/2012 :  1:37:43 PM  Show Profile  Click to see C.HARDY's MSN Messenger address  Reply with Quote
Why do we have such strict emmissions here in the US and the rest of the world doesnt have much or any at all? It all seems kinda ridiculous to me. My old man had a poster that said "the gas engine ended the horse and buggy, the diesel replaced the gas and the EPA will wipe them all out." Before you know it we'll see cows in the field with catalytic converters hanging off their rears..lol

"Hardybusman"
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JRob
Senior Member

176 Posts

Posted - 01/16/2012 :  2:48:03 PM  Show Profile  Visit JRob's Homepage  Reply with Quote
quote:
Why do we have such strict emmissions here in the US and the rest of the world doesnt have much or any at all?


This is not entirely accurate. Other locales around the globe have emission standards on par with the US. They have, in some cases, gone about them from a different direction, but in the end they will be similar.

Europe has adopted Euro I, II, II, IV, V (Current), & VI (in effect 2013). Euro VI will arrive at NOx and PM levels at or near the same standards as US EPA.

Japan is going down a similar path.

China, India, Brazil, Korea, and other emerging industrial nations have adopted Euro standards. However, they are behind and most are in Euro III or Euro IV standard emission levels. India and Brazil will hit Euro V within the next couple of years. China will soon be at Euro IV.

The main reason for the lag can probably be traced to the availability of high grade refined fuel. Many of these countries, though improving rapidly, simply don't have the widespread technical ability to make or distribute fuel that would permit the use of lowest level emission engines. This will all take place over time.

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mastertech
Advanced Member

211 Posts

Posted - 05/07/2012 :  7:25:59 PM  Show Profile  Visit mastertech's Homepage  Reply with Quote
Just wondering if there has been any progress on this issue. Most of the first generation maxxforce7's are still coming in 2 to 3 inches above full. We are changing oil everytime they come in the shop at 3000 to 4000 miles. No engine failures yet.
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Bassman
Top Member

USA
505 Posts

Posted - 05/08/2012 :  03:46:22 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
I am having success on my Maxxforce DT's by having the DPF's cleaned by FSX equipment (check fsxinc.com). This is the company recommended by IH and my vendor (Alban) has made special adaptors to get the hard to reach outer edges. I have each one baked and pneumatic cleaned and it brings the test readings back to within specs. While the DPF is out being cleaned, we remove the DOC and blow it out thoroughly. I have even had problems with the exchange DPF's that come from IH. Each of the three that I have received did not solve the problem and I had to have them cleaned. They failed the test with only a few thousand miles on them. If you want to try a test just to see if I am correct, purchase a BRAND NEW DPF and install it behind a thoroughly blown out DOC on one of your trouble buses. When it fixes it, you now have a spare DPF that you can send out and have cleaned correctly. This is just what is working for us. The only way I am getting help through IH is to refer it to one high level tech who seems to understand the problem. Otherwise, IH changes parts until you get tired of bringing the bus back. I have asked them repeatedly to create iKnow bulletins and to advise the other people on tech central line to no avail. I think that the DPF cleaning interval needs to come down from manf recommended specs...at least on these problem in-cyl dosing IH engines!!!!! We only have DT's....no 7's. Just my 2 cents. Good luck on this very difficult problem.

Edited by - Bassman on 05/08/2012 03:52:26 AM
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Kodie
Top Member

United States
1993 Posts

Posted - 05/08/2012 :  08:34:26 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
I've not followed this topic too closely, but I'm curious to know what the down time is on having the DPF's cleaned.

From start to finish, assuming everything is as it should be, how long does the process usually take, including sending it out?
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Mechan1c
Top Member

USA
663 Posts

Posted - 05/08/2012 :  10:52:13 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Bass,
Thanks for your help.
Tom.
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RichBusman
Advanced Member

448 Posts

Posted - 05/08/2012 :  6:09:30 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Funny how the Cummins don't require constant BS maintenance such as DPF baking...
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Mechan1c
Top Member

USA
663 Posts

Posted - 05/08/2012 :  6:16:29 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
That's not what my fellow shop supervisors tell me....
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Bassman
Top Member

USA
505 Posts

Posted - 05/09/2012 :  03:47:13 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Downtime on sending it to dealer...waiting in line, going up through tech central, doing all their bullcrap, including the network being down, slow responses, dealer mechanic off a few days, taking a few days to pick up and deliver, waiting in line at the DPF cleaning service, testing, pneumatic cleaning, baking, pneumatic cleaning again, testing again, coming back to dealer, having the dealer reinstall...3-3 1/2 weeks per unit. It's ridiculous. I've gone ahead and done some units myself to knock it down to 1 1/2 weeks downtime. My cummins are brand new but we have had isolated DPF clogging on Mercedes MBE 906, but the diag and turn around time is fast, the exchange units are good and no oil building because no in-cyl dosing. YES, I'VE BEEN THROUGH IT!
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mastertech
Advanced Member

211 Posts

Posted - 05/09/2012 :  05:44:25 AM  Show Profile  Visit mastertech's Homepage  Reply with Quote
Could you tell me how you are determining when the dpf needs to be cleaned. Most forced regens get the soot level close to zero. To start pouring money down the dpf hole I to be concluve proof.
I have an 09 max7 at the dealer now that runs great for about 20 miles then power drops off and it derates. The only code is ( service dpf) with the upside down triangle . None of the regen light come on to warn you either. The dealer has had it for a week and has no idea.
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willism
Senior Member

United States
130 Posts

Posted - 05/09/2012 :  06:17:32 AM  Show Profile  Visit willism's Homepage  Reply with Quote
Had 1 cloged on a 2010 ISB 6.7 didnt give me a regen code gave a turbo inlet restriction code dealer did a forced regen and its running fine now...
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78fordwayne
Top Member

USA
2868 Posts

Posted - 05/09/2012 :  07:31:51 AM  Show Profile  Visit 78fordwayne's Homepage  Send 78fordwayne an AOL message  Send 78fordwayne a Yahoo! Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by RichBusman

Funny how the Cummins don't require constant BS maintenance such as DPF baking...


HAHA Rich your funny.
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RichBusman
Advanced Member

448 Posts

Posted - 05/09/2012 :  12:20:18 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Hey, I'm just going by what the people who run them tell me. I simply haven't heard of any DPF cleaning issues on the Cummins engines.

For the other engines, 2007 Mercedes included, I hear that DPF cleaning is a rather common "epidemic". Seems unacceptable to me to have to be inconvenienced with constant DPF issues.

Edited by - RichBusman on 05/09/2012 12:20:41 PM
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bcressey
Senior Member

USA
114 Posts

Posted - 05/12/2012 :  06:58:55 AM  Show Profile  Visit bcressey's Homepage  Reply with Quote
To put this in perspective, I still have not seen a DPF in a school bus application that required cleaning from use. Any we have changed have been the direct result of an upstream issue. Our first units went in service June 2007 for EPA 07 and May 2010 for EPA 10 units. We are a Detroit and a Cummins dealer. I'll buy that they require cleaning at some point but if people are telling you that they need to be cleaned I have a hard time believing it unless there is a very extreme application or use or a masked upstream issue. I have zero experience working on the 07 Cats or the 2007-2010 IH's.
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Bassman
Top Member

USA
505 Posts

Posted - 05/14/2012 :  03:42:49 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
The only way I can tell when my 08 MaxxForce DT's DPF's need cleaning is the fast rise of the crankcase oil level and fuel dilution numbers in the 20 (plus) range and mileages generally in the 100,000 - 130,000 range (although the oil building starts long before that). And I have started accepting that up to an inch over and up to 10% is normal on these buses (like IH tech central preaches). Building 3 inches over and thin oil with a long crank is a sign something needs to be done. If it had downstream dosing instead of in-cyl dosing, I bet it could keep running with that soot level.

Edited by - Bassman on 05/14/2012 03:44:47 AM
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mastertech
Advanced Member

211 Posts

Posted - 05/15/2012 :  9:05:58 PM  Show Profile  Visit mastertech's Homepage  Reply with Quote
Most of the fleet is coming up on the 100,000 mile mark. I wish they would stay around one inch over. Most are 2 to 3 inches over at the 4,000 miles. The first generation does have one positive advantage over the twin turbo version . When wiping the oil/fuel mix off your hands it doesnt stain like the newer engines oil. Its hard to believe we have not smoked a turbo or rod bearing yet.
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sambrutay
Advanced Member

United States
217 Posts

Posted - 08/30/2012 :  04:49:28 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
UPDATE ON THIS TOPIC:
International has come up with a new ECM flash that will supposedly fix this problem. They will need to clean the DOC then Reflash the ECM. HOPEFULLY this works as we have about 90 buses that fell out of warranty this August. Will report back with the success rate.

Bruce
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sambrutay
Advanced Member

United States
217 Posts

Posted - 10/30/2012 :  6:11:50 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
So far this has not cured the problem. One of the first bus,es flashed just came in 10 qts overfull. Same as the last time. Atleast it didnt get worse.......

Bruce
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raytobe
Advanced Member

USA
277 Posts

Posted - 10/31/2012 :  05:29:24 AM  Show Profile  Visit raytobe's Homepage  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by sambrutay

So far this has not cured the problem. One of the first bus,es flashed just came in 10 qts overfull. Same as the last time. Atleast it didnt get worse.......



I feel for you. We just had one complete engine replaced under warranty due to this problem and they are supposed to come here soon to do the fix on the rest of our fleet. With 90 busses out of warranty I'd be concerned for sure. I had one come in the other day that was 20 quarts overfull.
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sambrutay
Advanced Member

United States
217 Posts

Posted - 10/31/2012 :  09:34:40 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
[/quote]

I had one come in the other day that was 20 quarts overfull.
[/quote]

Wow, More diesel in the pan than oil. Thats Crazy.

Bruce
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LeeB77
New Member

6 Posts

Posted - 11/13/2012 :  11:38:57 AM  Show Profile  Visit LeeB77's Homepage  Reply with Quote
We had ours reflashed and the problem was not fixed. We sent one of the buses to the service shop and they are asking for $1800 to clean everything "so they can start over fresh". Our buses are now out of warranty but I am grasping on to hope that we can still get ours covered under warranty since we started trying to get this addressed during the warranty period.

Next step will be to send a detailed email to corporate.
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willism
Senior Member

United States
130 Posts

Posted - 11/13/2012 :  12:39:07 PM  Show Profile  Visit willism's Homepage  Reply with Quote
Let us know LeeB77 how that turns out. Ours arnt building oil atm but the sensor harnesses have been going out on ours just weird things like the water temp maxed or egr valve fails. Wish we would have traded them out...
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Bassman
Top Member

USA
505 Posts

Posted - 11/14/2012 :  04:09:48 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Dont' expect to get much out of an email to corporate. Your best bet is to find one of the few people that have a clue and really care and start there. Start with your area rep, but the odds of having a good one that can get action are slim.

Edited by - Bassman on 11/14/2012 04:12:01 AM
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