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bwest
Administrator
United States
3820 Posts |
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RichBusman
Advanced Member
453 Posts |
 Posted - 07/29/2011 : 01:03:02 AM
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| Ford transmission. |
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bwest
Administrator
United States
3820 Posts |
Posted - 07/29/2011 : 05:01:16 AM
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| Not sure on the trans. I have heard Ford though. The transmission that is in the propane bus now is an Allison but it is a 2500 HS which is different than the ones in the diesels. HS stands for high speed, refering to the input speed. |
Bryan |
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Wolf0r
Top Member
USA
2181 Posts |
Posted - 07/29/2011 : 09:48:37 AM
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Editor's note: a previous version of this story indicated the Vision could be available on the Ford F-650 chassis next year. In actuality, the new 6.8L V-10 engine will be available. F-650/BB would be too awesome. All the other bus companies would have to give up trying to be that cool.
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“The good thing about science is that it's true whether or not you believe in it.”
Neil deGrasse Tyson |
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bwest
Administrator
United States
3820 Posts |
Posted - 07/29/2011 : 10:00:58 AM
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 That is funny Wolf. I would have to admit that a Ford chassis under a BB would be pretty cool. Just no Lucas Girling though please!!
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Bryan |
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RichBusman
Advanced Member
453 Posts |
Posted - 07/29/2011 : 10:57:00 AM
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It is in fact a Ford automatic transmission.
And the 6.8L V10 gets horrific fuel mileage in cutaway buses and Type A school buses, I could only imagine what it would get in a full size school bus in gasoline form. 3 MPG? 4 MPG?
Even if it is $10,000-15,000 cheaper than diesel up front, it will never pay for itself if a diesel is getting 7-9 MPG. Impossible. Gasoline is just too close in price to diesel at the pump.
At least propane is cheaper than gasoline. It will be interesting to see what the pricing stays at in the coming years once the subsidies disappear. |
Edited by - RichBusman on 07/29/2011 10:57:45 AM |
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bwest
Administrator
United States
3820 Posts |
Posted - 07/29/2011 : 1:27:19 PM
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My propane supplier says that we are exporting quite a bit right now so we have an abundance. There is also a natural gas field out west some where that is supose to come on line soon so that should keep the price down.
I just went to a BB class on the new diesels. I hope I can continue to purchase propane buses into the forseeable future. These new diesels are a nightmare and I understand there are more regs coming on line in 2012. I wouldn't think the propane will ever have to have any aftertreatment or anything like that. So the cost of ownership for a district wanting to keep their equipment beyond 5 years should be real good. I can't believe these contractors are not already going this way (seems they keep their machines longer that school districts do). I can understand why Laidlaw (or what ever they are calling it now) aren't they have IC on the brain. As soon as IC gets a propane they will go that way I guess.
I am not going to argue with you, Rich, on the fuel cost because I don't know what the future holds. But right now propane is a good money saving tool without the cost of ownership added in. I could go on and explain what I am paying for both fuels and how, even with poorer fuel mileage, I am still coming out ahead but I did that already in another thread.
Again, I am not a salesman or getting any kickbacks. I just try to do what is the least resistance in my life and I think propane will do that. So naturally I want to share this with everyone that is in a similar position as I.
Probably my biggest fear at this point is this 8.1 GM engine being the red headed step child once the Ford gets going. There are serveral of these units out there, so I should get some help even if my dealer can't or doesn't want to. Time will tell I guess. |
Bryan |
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Wolf0r
Top Member
USA
2181 Posts |
Posted - 07/29/2011 : 1:32:17 PM
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| I hope it works out for everyone. I would like to dissect one in my spare time to see what they are about. I have seen the Roush 7.4 system in other articles, they look easy to work on. |
“The good thing about science is that it's true whether or not you believe in it.”
Neil deGrasse Tyson |
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RichBusman
Advanced Member
453 Posts |
Posted - 07/29/2011 : 4:46:05 PM
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My post above was against the gasoline engine, not propane. Gasoline is too close to diesel, and the MPG penalty makes it much more costly in the long run to run a gasoline bus instead of diesel.
Propane has some cost benefits in the long term as long as the price stays below $2.00 and diesel stays high. But it also depends on the average MPG of your diesel buses. Some districts can average 9 MPG on a diesel where propane only gets 4 MPG. This can make it tough to justify propane.
Anyway, here is where I came up with my math for gas vs diesel.
http://www.josephsunny.com/finance/diesel.html
150,000 Miles
Diesel 7.5 MPG
Gasoline 4 MPG
Diesel Price $3.50
Gas Price $3.20
Diesel Gallons Used: 20,000
Gas Gallons Used: 37,500
Total Diesel Cost: $70,000
Total Gas Cost: $120,000
Diesel Cost Savings$50,000
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Same Math on Propane:
150,000 Miles
Diesel 7.5 MPG
Propane 4 MPG
Diesel Price $3.50
Propane Price $1.80
Diesel Gallons Used: 20,000
Propane Gallons Used: 37,500
Total Diesel Cost: $70,000
Total Propane Cost: $67,500
Propane Cost Savings $2,500
(if propane averages $2.00 it will cost $5,000 more)
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I guess the key with propane will be for it to stay below $2.00 and to screech out more than 4 MPG if possible. Gasoline obviously is not worth it at all. Feel free to tweak my numbers. |
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bwest
Administrator
United States
3820 Posts |
Posted - 07/29/2011 : 10:10:28 PM
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Intersting numbers. Our current price on propane is 2.12 plus .19 for road tax, minus .50 back from feds. Total would be 1.81, so to put that in your 150,000 miles that would be $67,875. My diesel cost is about 3.75 too so that number in your example would be $75,000. So savings would be $7,125. I hope this Ford they are talking about gets better mileage than 4. But I have heard that some around here local are getting 9 from the new Cummins too so that will bring us some new numbers to think about.
Really if you play with a calculator it doesn't take too much of an improvment in fuel mileage on the propane to make a real difference. For example 5 MPG would be $54,300 ---- 5.5 MPG propane would be $49,363 --- By contrast 9MPG diesel would be $62,499.
You can really see quite fast why these companies are going after this technology pretty hard. All this is not even mentioning the savings from not having to replace any of the expensive componets that are found on a modern diesel or less cost per oil change. |
Bryan |
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Fastback
Top Member
1500 Posts |
Posted - 08/12/2011 : 05:53:18 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by bwest
That is funny Wolf. I would have to admit that a Ford chassis under a BB would be pretty cool. Just no Lucas Girling though please!!
Do you realize who builds the Ford medium duty truck chassis for Ford? Hint; you don't like them  |
Why yes, the ORIGinal CHARGER is a Fastback |
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Wolf0r
Top Member
USA
2181 Posts |
Posted - 08/12/2011 : 06:41:15 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by Fastback
quote:
Originally posted by bwest
That is funny Wolf. I would have to admit that a Ford chassis under a BB would be pretty cool. Just no Lucas Girling though please!!
Do you realize who builds the Ford medium duty truck chassis for Ford? Hint; you don't like them
Fill us in Fastback. Also anyone have a link to the 8.1 multiport conversion? Or was that an exculsive Roush build? |
“The good thing about science is that it's true whether or not you believe in it.”
Neil deGrasse Tyson |
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Fastback
Top Member
1500 Posts |
Posted - 08/12/2011 : 08:01:01 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by Wolf0r
quote:
Originally posted by Fastback
quote:
Originally posted by bwest
That is funny Wolf. I would have to admit that a Ford chassis under a BB would be pretty cool. Just no Lucas Girling though please!!
Do you realize who builds the Ford medium duty truck chassis for Ford? Hint; you don't like them
Fill us in Fastback. Also anyone have a link to the 8.1 multiport conversion? Or was that an exculsive Roush build?
International essentially builds the Ford F650 and F750 Medium duty trucks in Mexico for Ford in a Ford/Navistar joint venture known as "Blue Diamond Truck and Parts"
A press release below on the subject;
DEARBORN, Mich. and WARRENVILLE, Ill. (January 13, 2009)—Ford Motor Company (NYSE: F) and Navistar International Corporation (NYSE: NAV) have reached an agreement to restructure their ongoing business relationship and settle all existing litigation between the companies.
As a result of the agreement, the companies will end their current diesel engine supply agreement effective Dec. 31, 2009. However, the companies will continue to collaborate on a range of initiatives, including their existing Blue Diamond Truck and Parts joint ventures. Navistar will acquire additional equity in the Blue Diamond joint ventures, which will continue to offer dealers and customers F-650 and F-750 medium duty trucks, as well as parts support for a variety of Ford products, including Ford's PowerStroke Diesel-equipped trucks. Ford and Navistar also will continue their diesel engine supply relationship in South America. As a result of the agreement, Ford will make a payment to Navistar.
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Why yes, the ORIGinal CHARGER is a Fastback |
Edited by - Fastback on 08/12/2011 08:07:27 AM |
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Wolf0r
Top Member
USA
2181 Posts |
Posted - 08/12/2011 : 1:05:28 PM
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| Ford does only have troubles when they mate up with another company that they don't completly own. Maybe meeting 1/2 way on some issues would help them out. Like the GM/BB used to be, still issues but reliable in the long run. Blue Diamond that's catchy. |
“The good thing about science is that it's true whether or not you believe in it.”
Neil deGrasse Tyson |
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bwest
Administrator
United States
3820 Posts |
Posted - 08/12/2011 : 1:15:46 PM
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Blue Diamnond/ Blue Bird, kind of catchy.
I would agree whith Wolf on this one. Ford seems to do things better when they have complete control. I understand the Chevy/ BB or for that matter Thomas/ Freightliner (before Freightshaker owned them) works too because they really don't have co-mingling of major parts. (yes I understand there are some control parts that have to be there to make things work together that Bird, or whoever, has to provide.)
as for the propane engine provided by Ford. I would say this has to work but who knows, there are co-mingling of parts there. (Roush/Ford) Time will tell my friends! |
Bryan |
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Wolf0r
Top Member
USA
2181 Posts |
Posted - 08/16/2011 : 1:40:24 PM
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| Hey West, I went to Norris City, Illinois today. School Buses all over the place at a place called Johnsons. You been there? |
“The good thing about science is that it's true whether or not you believe in it.”
Neil deGrasse Tyson |
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bwest
Administrator
United States
3820 Posts |
Posted - 08/16/2011 : 4:43:56 PM
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yeah, it's been a few years though. I called to see if he had a 3126 to replace that one I was talking about but he only had a 16. What were you doing in Norris City?
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Bryan |
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Wolf0r
Top Member
USA
2181 Posts |
Posted - 08/17/2011 : 08:31:04 AM
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| We were getting a hood and fenders for a C-60 farm truck. I went to look at the buses and the f-700s. I will be going back to get a 67 f-100 he had there. I'm putting a f-700 gauge cluster in my f100 I bought. Man I need a couple grand and a flat bed semi, lots of goodies there. Wards, Carpenters, Superior, etc. |
“The good thing about science is that it's true whether or not you believe in it.”
Neil deGrasse Tyson |
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bwest
Administrator
United States
3820 Posts |
Posted - 08/17/2011 : 5:08:37 PM
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| That is the truth, there is a lot of stuff there. You should walk all the way to the back where the goodies are! Back several years ago there were old stationary engines, and a few pre 1960 trucks there. He also had several propane trucks the last time I was there. Are there still any there? They were out by the road. |
Bryan |
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Wolf0r
Top Member
USA
2181 Posts |
Posted - 08/18/2011 : 06:56:38 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by bwest
That is the truth, there is a lot of stuff there. You should walk all the way to the back where the goodies are! Back several years ago there were old stationary engines, and a few pre 1960 trucks there. He also had several propane trucks the last time I was there. Are there still any there? They were out by the road.
I will look when I go back. I found a 70's F-600 crew cab that I must have. He is driving one of the propane Chevy W/T 1/2 tons. |
“The good thing about science is that it's true whether or not you believe in it.”
Neil deGrasse Tyson |
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bwest
Administrator
United States
3820 Posts |
Posted - 08/18/2011 : 08:50:39 AM
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| What does "W/T 1/2 tons" mean? Is the old crew cab all rusted out? That would be neat to have. Put the cab on a chevy chasis with four wheel disk and a 3126 or 3116 cat! |
Bryan |
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Wolf0r
Top Member
USA
2181 Posts |
Posted - 08/18/2011 : 09:26:47 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by bwest
What does "W/T 1/2 tons" mean? Is the old crew cab all rusted out? That would be neat to have. Put the cab on a chevy chasis with four wheel disk and a 3126 or 3116 cat!
W/T is the Chevy work trucks, from the late 80's early 90's. They were 1/2 ton light duty. Utility companies used them a lot on propane.
http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3145/2750109279_880b45a351.jpg
I want this on a F-350 dually frame. The cab is basically the same just the front fenders are different. I would have to use a 1/2 ton doghouse. |
“The good thing about science is that it's true whether or not you believe in it.”
Neil deGrasse Tyson |
Edited by - Wolf0r on 08/18/2011 09:29:35 AM |
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bwest
Administrator
United States
3820 Posts |
Posted - 08/18/2011 : 3:40:59 PM
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| That would fit on a '79 1/2 or 3/4 chassis wouldn't it? |
Bryan |
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Wolf0r
Top Member
USA
2181 Posts |
Posted - 08/19/2011 : 06:16:31 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by bwest
That would fit on a '79 1/2 or 3/4 chassis wouldn't it?
With a little modification. Ford used the "bumpside" cab up till 1975 or so until they retooled for the wider "dentside" cab. |
“The good thing about science is that it's true whether or not you believe in it.”
Neil deGrasse Tyson |
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New propane BB
