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bwest
Administrator
United States
3820 Posts |
 Posted - 04/01/2011 : 09:02:33 AM
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Well, our district just took delivery of a new propane bus. I guess time will tell if it was the proper decision. It looks to be a win win. Fuel mileage will be about the same as the diesels I am running now and the fuel cost will be less. Warrenty on the engine is 8 years vs. 5 for a diesel. The maintenance such as oil change intervals, oil capacity, price of an oil filter, price of replacment parts, & so on are all to our advantage.
I'll try to keep everyone posted. I'll be keeping close records. |
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bluebirdvision
Top Member
USA
1081 Posts |
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stovebolt
Active Member
37 Posts |
Posted - 04/01/2011 : 09:44:52 AM
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| what kind of engine is it? a diesel running on propane, or a gasoline engine? |
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bwest
Administrator
United States
3820 Posts |
Posted - 04/01/2011 : 11:28:31 AM
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It is a GM 8.1 gasoline engine changed at the factory to LPI. This bus is a 2010 demonstrator model. The GM 8.1 is currently out of production and BB is going to be using a Ford V-10 for new production buses. The GM engine has 325 hp and is pretty snappy. I will be getting into it more on Monday, had to take the afternoon off today. This will be a learning situation for us but the more I learn the more I like it. I know there is probably going to be some things I don't like that come up but I haven't found any yet.
One of the things right off that hits you when you get in and start it up is the quiet! I had a shop full of reporters and representatives from the fuel supplier and they had their back to the open walk in door asking questions and didn't even hear it come onto the lot!
For you guys that live in Illinois you will probably be hearing about this if you are a member of the Farm Bureau. I am getting my LP from a Growmark member company called Effingham Clay Service Company. I think there will be at least one story on this in their publication.
I'll try to post some pictures if I can get some from the local reporter. I had a camera but didn't get anyone to take pictures for me.
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Bryan |
Edited by - bwest on 04/01/2011 11:31:01 AM |
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RichBusman
Advanced Member
453 Posts |
Posted - 04/01/2011 : 2:27:15 PM
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Curious as to what your dealer is charging extra for on the propane conversion. Seems like the cost is different depending on who is selling the bus. Last I heard, I think the cost was around $10-15,000 over the cost of a 2010 emissions diesel.
Same MPG? I've been hearing they are getting anywhere from 4-5 MPG in NY. What are your diesels getting currently? Keep us posted on your experience with the bus.
I think there are a lot of benefits with the propane, just trying to get more ideas on initial upfront cost and the MPG penalty. |
Edited by - RichBusman on 04/01/2011 2:31:50 PM |
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bwest
Administrator
United States
3820 Posts |
Posted - 04/01/2011 : 7:50:28 PM
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This bus was a demo so it was about 25k less than a diesel. I have been quoted two different numbers on difference in cost on a regular price bus, one was $5,000 more and a more recent quote was $7,000 more.
As for MPG my buses are getting somewhere around 7. This bus has about 11,000 miles on it and the salesman said it was one side or the other of 7. The spec sheet says 6.6. Time will tell what it gets on the route. I will be disipointed if it doesn't get over 6.
I too think it is sound technology or I wouldn't have recomended our district go with this bus even though it was so much less costly. It is also interesting to get set up for fueling. I really can't go into the details here but the company that BB had set up to run with this backed out and a local company came to our rescue. If we would have bought more units and would have had a larger fleet then this other company probably would have jumped on it.
Hope this information helps you.
I will be posting as much as I can in the future. I am not sure how my district & BB whats me to handle this and I want to stay on good terms with both of them. If you know what I mean.
How big is you fleet Rich? |
Bryan |
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RichBusman
Advanced Member
453 Posts |
Posted - 04/02/2011 : 08:32:24 AM
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Sounds like you got a great deal on it, well worth the pick up to try it out in that case. I'm very interested to hear the fuel mileage you get as well, if you get 6+ that would be fantastic. I'm also impressed that the markup on the propane buses in your state is only in the $5,000-7,000 range... it's way more than that here. Dealer markup.
I'm a sales rep (not for large buses), but I have a pretty large territory in NY that I cover. So I have a number of customers running propane large buses, and I also have sold a propane small bus. The small bus is working out very well, and the MPG has been pretty stellar on that. |
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C.HARDY
Advanced Member
354 Posts |
Posted - 04/02/2011 : 08:59:55 AM
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| If nothing else I would bet that engine will last as long as a diesel. I've had the intake off a 5.7L propane engine with over 250k miles and it looked like new inside. It came out of a delivery truck. We were converting it back to gas and I was really impressed how clean it was. |
"Hardybusman" |
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bwest
Administrator
United States
3820 Posts |
Posted - 04/02/2011 : 7:48:02 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by C.HARDY
If nothing else I would bet that engine will last as long as a diesel. I've had the intake off a 5.7L propane engine with over 250k miles and it looked like new inside. It came out of a delivery truck. We were converting it back to gas and I was really impressed how clean it was.
Why were they changing it back to gas?
I hope this pans out. All the indicators are that it will. One thing I don't understand is why we haven't heard much about the buses running in Texas, Florida, California and other states. Looks like BB would be singing about this. Pardon the pun. I have had some interesting comments and expect many more.
Rich, looks like to me your local BB dealer would want to get these things off the ground. If they take off BB will have a jump start on things and could regain their market share. Heck looks like BB would drop the bottom out of the price and get them out there. I just don't understand the corporate type I guess.
Are the large buses running on propane in NY Blue Birds or are they the older conversions?
Well with all that said I am looking out for my district first and foremost! If this thing looks like it will not be a good way to go we can always go back to the clattering diesel. |
Bryan |
Edited by - bwest on 04/02/2011 8:01:18 PM |
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bluebirdvision
Top Member
USA
1081 Posts |
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bwest
Administrator
United States
3820 Posts |
Posted - 04/03/2011 : 10:12:11 AM
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| Cool sheet BBVision! Thanks! |
Bryan |
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bluebirdvision
Top Member
USA
1081 Posts |
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78fordwayne
Top Member
USA
2868 Posts |
Posted - 04/03/2011 : 11:39:55 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by bluebirdvision
Bwest, thank you for forging ahead and going Propane! 
Forging ahead ? Or going back into the 80s ? |
Robert B.
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Edited by - 78fordwayne on 04/03/2011 11:40:07 AM |
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RichBusman
Advanced Member
453 Posts |
Posted - 04/03/2011 : 11:49:34 AM
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| Well at least there is no EGR or urea to deal with. |
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bluebirdvision
Top Member
USA
1081 Posts |
Posted - 04/03/2011 : 12:22:38 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by 78fordwayne
quote:
Originally posted by bluebirdvision
Bwest, thank you for forging ahead and going Propane!
Forging ahead ? Or going back into the 80s ?
They didn't use propane injection in the 80s! Its a whole different ballgame now. I wish my district was able to trade-in all our CAT powered Visions for Propane models. |
Facebook Page: Blue Bird Corporation Fans
https://www.facebook.com/home.php?sk=group_212311114614&ap=1
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78fordwayne
Top Member
USA
2868 Posts |
Posted - 04/03/2011 : 1:17:46 PM
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| On that sell sheet it says "Similar MPG to diesel and gasoline".. So which is it ? |
Robert B.
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bwest
Administrator
United States
3820 Posts |
Posted - 04/03/2011 : 1:48:27 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by 78fordwayne
On that sell sheet it says "Similar MPG to diesel and gasoline".. So which is it ?
Time will tell with my bus. I will definately keep you guys informed about the fuel milage. |
Bryan |
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Fastback
Top Member
1500 Posts |
Posted - 04/04/2011 : 07:35:18 AM
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| A district in Iowa is getting 4-5 mpg on theirs. |
Why yes, the ORIGinal CHARGER is a Fastback |
Edited by - Fastback on 04/04/2011 07:37:08 AM |
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bwest
Administrator
United States
3820 Posts |
Posted - 04/04/2011 : 10:03:13 AM
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Is that on a regular route? You know this is just like the conversation we get into on here about fuel milage on DEF engines vs. non-DEF engines. It is subject to the gear ratio and a whole host of other variables.
I know this thing has a lot of snap to it when taking off so it might have a low gear in it. I haven't gotten it on a route yet it will probably be about a week before that happends. I have to get a two way in it as well as a camera. We are also waiting on the fire marshall's office to come out and approve our fill station. |
Bryan |
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bluebirdvision
Top Member
USA
1081 Posts |
Posted - 04/04/2011 : 10:24:31 AM
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As I understand it, these buses CAN get the advertised mileage, BUT they have so much power (as bwest has said "snap") that a lot of the drivers are flooring it constantly, and as everyone knows that will decrease the MPGs.
I road in one at a conference, and I couldn't believe the power and quietness. I'm trying to get someone to let me take one for a spin... |
Facebook Page: Blue Bird Corporation Fans
https://www.facebook.com/home.php?sk=group_212311114614&ap=1
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Fastback
Top Member
1500 Posts |
Posted - 04/04/2011 : 11:26:47 AM
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Well no sense speculating on the mileage at this point, you will soon enough know.
Does this new bus mean you are not gonna mess with your old bad Cat? |
Why yes, the ORIGinal CHARGER is a Fastback |
Edited by - Fastback on 04/04/2011 11:27:34 AM |
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C.HARDY
Advanced Member
354 Posts |
Posted - 04/04/2011 : 1:52:43 PM
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| bwest that truck was bought at auction and was going to be used on a farm and he didnt have access to propane. Still like I said it was very impressive how smooth it ran and how clean the inside of that engine was. |
"Hardybusman" |
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bwest
Administrator
United States
3820 Posts |
Posted - 04/04/2011 : 2:19:42 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by Fastback
Well no sense speculating on the mileage at this point, you will soon enough know.
Does this new bus mean you are not gonna mess with your old bad Cat?
Oh no, I have the engine out of that one now and am waiting for the machine shop to do his magic! |
Bryan |
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Fastback
Top Member
1500 Posts |
Posted - 04/05/2011 : 05:51:31 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by RichBusman
Well at least there is no EGR or urea to deal with.
replaced with limited range and fueling hassles |
Why yes, the ORIGinal CHARGER is a Fastback |
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bus724
Top Member
USA
1609 Posts |
Posted - 04/05/2011 : 06:22:18 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by Fastback
quote:
Originally posted by RichBusman
Well at least there is no EGR or urea to deal with.
replaced with limited range and fueling hassles
It depends on the operation. A large fleet that does primarily local routes could definitely see the benefits. On the other hand, the charter company I work for (which has 5 school buses used for long-distance charters, shares a lot with a truck company, and fuels at retail stations) is better off staying with diesel. |
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Fastback
Top Member
1500 Posts |
Posted - 04/05/2011 : 08:57:07 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by bus724
quote:
Originally posted by Fastback
quote:
Originally posted by RichBusman
Well at least there is no EGR or urea to deal with.
replaced with limited range and fueling hassles
It depends on the operation. A large fleet that does primarily local routes could definitely see the benefits. On the other hand, the charter company I work for (which has 5 school buses used for long-distance charters, shares a lot with a truck company, and fuels at retail stations) is better off staying with diesel.
Do you have any personnal experiance fueling a propane powered fleet?
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Why yes, the ORIGinal CHARGER is a Fastback |
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bus724
Top Member
USA
1609 Posts |
Posted - 04/05/2011 : 09:54:04 AM
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| I do not. However, based on how the sales reps have been talking, I would assume that a large enough operation could be equipped to efficiently fuel with propane. I'm simply stating the obvious by pointing out that everyone's situation is different, and what may seem like a hassle for some would offer benefits for others. |
Edited by - bus724 on 04/05/2011 09:55:48 AM |
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bwest
Administrator
United States
3820 Posts |
Posted - 04/05/2011 : 10:13:44 AM
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To answer some of your questions from my perspective; I think the range will be about the same as a diesel. The vast majority of my fleet is used on daily routes or ball games that are within 100 miles of the school. As for fueling it is not that much harder than fueling a diesel. In fact if you did a fuel up on a diesel by the book I would say it would be about the same. Even with a long range trip (say to Chicago which is about 400 miles from us) there are places you can fuel up you just have to call ahead and make arangements to fuel. Yes it is a little bit of a hastle but I believe it's worth it (time will change much of this).
The bottom line here is; if my school can do it anyone can. I run 11 regular routes and 1 special education route. Our local propane dealer is working with us to set up and supply the fuel and training for us. So far the set up has been somewhat difficult but not impossible. The next school around here to do it will have a much better go at it because I have already been through it. |
Bryan |
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Fastback
Top Member
1500 Posts |
Posted - 04/05/2011 : 11:47:13 AM
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Just my experiance;
60 gallon of diesel will take you 450 miles @ 7.5 mpg
A 72 gallon LP tank will hold 61 gallons and will take you 300 miles IF you get nearly 5 mpg. So you will be filling the bus 1.5 times more often.
Anyone fueling our buses needed training and a good pair of heavy leather gloves. I wouldn't of trusted 90 % of my drivers to do it, frostbite/workmans comp. Has anything really changed in this regard?
You must plan ahead. Since propane tank pressure is temperature dependant, in the winter, you can't park the bus needing fuel overnight in a heated building and expect to be able to back it out and fuel it in the morning. Bulk tank pressure and bus tank pressure can only be so far apart or the rate of fueling can be slow or not at all.
If you fueled your diesel buses at scattered locations through your district (cardtrol pumps) you may now have the expense of dead head runs to a sole LP fueling location.
I hope it works out for you bwest. I congratulate you on getting a new bus to update your fleet. I am anxious to hear how it pans out for you. |
Why yes, the ORIGinal CHARGER is a Fastback |
Edited by - Fastback on 04/05/2011 11:52:25 AM |
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Trailboss
Senior Member
United States
196 Posts |
Posted - 04/05/2011 : 12:30:43 PM
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| It is against the city ordanance to have a propane tank in the city limits where I live. I was wandering about the fueling also. I guess it is not on dual fuel. |
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bwest
Administrator
United States
3820 Posts |
Posted - 04/05/2011 : 12:45:58 PM
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Trailboss, no it is a dedicated system. I would also say to you city that they need to get with the times and let the LP system in if you want to go that way. They would probably give you a variance anyway. All you have to do it put it in the local news that the city is preventing you from going green and their phone will ring off the wall.
Fastback, again to disclose my possition I do not know if what you say about the fueling will be a problem or not. I do know that our supplier has guaranteed my system will deliver 10-12 GPM. It has what is called a high pressure differential pump.
I am not sure that what you are talking about with an accidental discharge of fuel is possible with this system, but all that training is yet to come. (waiting on the fire marshall to approve the installation of the system before we get training)
Thanks for the words of encouragement too!
Here is a link to a local news story they did on the delivery of our bus. We had several people here from our fuel supplier including someone from Bloomington.
http://effinghamdailynews.com/local/x1075327680/Going-green-more-efficient-cost-effective |
Bryan |
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bluebirdvision
Top Member
USA
1081 Posts |
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bwest
Administrator
United States
3820 Posts |
Posted - 04/05/2011 : 6:06:01 PM
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| I heard about PERC. Does it just have a link to the story or a story of its own? I actually got a call from Amerigas wanting to bid on the fuel because they saw the story on PERC. I didn't ask any details though. |
Bryan |
Edited by - bwest on 04/05/2011 6:20:05 PM |
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bluebirdvision
Top Member
USA
1081 Posts |
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bwest
Administrator
United States
3820 Posts |
Posted - 04/05/2011 : 6:17:00 PM
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| Thanks |
Bryan |
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RichBusman
Advanced Member
453 Posts |
Posted - 04/05/2011 : 10:13:04 PM
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| Nice looking bus. Definitely a good thing getting the local media involved on a positive story too, seems like they are always looking for something negative when it comes to buses. |
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Propane Bus
