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bwest
Administrator
United States
3820 Posts |
 Posted - 04/06/2011 : 5:05:39 PM
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Took the bus to a Clean Cities meeting today in St. Louis. This is sponsored by the US Dept. Energy and has Clean Fuel USA, PERC, Texas State Tech. College, & PSG (Public Solutions Group out of Texas) as partener companies. They are kicking off a multi-city effort to put in 148 public access propane fueling stations. There will be 10 in each major metro area and I think there was a mention about a service center of some sort as well. There are currently 4 under construction in the St. Louis area. There were speakers from Clean Fuel, Rouch, PSG, and Texas State.
They also mentioned that Ford is going all out and going to have a propane offering in the F-250/350, E-250/350, a striped chassis (I'm assuming for aplications such as bread trucks), the little metro van (what ever they call it)(these are going to replace the crown vic as a cab), as well as the cut-a-way van.
An Amerigas truck fueled my bus while everyone watched. They served lunch and we were out of there.
The bus drives pretty good. It's about 125 miles to St. Louis from my location. It is governed at 60 mph but will climb hills good and will make it to 65 before it shuts down. I am going to check into gettig it moved up so we can do a consistant 65 on the interstate. I really don't have any complaints at this time. As I said above it is snappy on take off and runs out good.
No figures on the mileage yet. I tried to figure it but without knowing the exact mileage and if the tank was filled up to the same amount as before it is real hard to do. |
Bryan |
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bwest
Administrator
United States
3820 Posts |
Posted - 04/08/2011 : 10:37:24 AM
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Here's a picture of the day that we took delivery of the bus. Left to right is: Chad, Bud, Shorty, (all from my propane supplier, Effingham-Clay FS). Next is a propane marketing executive from Growmark in Bloomington, IL (I don't have his name right now), then our assistant principal Terry (he also helps in transportation), Ben from Central States, me, one of our board members Chris, and my propane salesman Ron. I will be posting some picture of our fill station when time permits
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Bryan |
Edited by - bwest on 04/08/2011 10:43:21 AM |
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bwest
Administrator
United States
3820 Posts |
Posted - 04/11/2011 : 09:51:08 AM
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Here is our fill station as it stands now. I think this should be the final inception but who knows with the fire marshall coming on the 19th to inspect so we can operate it. As you can see it is very simple and I beleive anyone can set this up at their school. The cabinet has a meter and hose with nozzel in there.
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Bryan |
Edited by - bwest on 04/11/2011 09:52:48 AM |
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C2FAN
Senior Member
United States
114 Posts |
Posted - 04/12/2011 : 4:21:11 PM
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bwest, are you getting a per gallon fuel credit?
I hope you update us on what kind of fuel mileage you are getting. I applaud your district for taking the leap on Propane. |
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RichBusman
Advanced Member
453 Posts |
Posted - 04/12/2011 : 5:27:39 PM
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| The fuel credit was extended through the end of 2011 from what I understand, so I see no reason why his district would not receive the credit. |
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bwest
Administrator
United States
3820 Posts |
Posted - 04/13/2011 : 05:33:21 AM
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Yes, we are going to receive the credit through our supplier. They will apply for it on our behalf and credit us at the time of purchase. I think that is pretty good of our supplier seeing how the govenment takes a long time to ditribute money sometimes.
I will definatly keep this forum informed of the mileage. I have some early estimates now but I want to wait until I get a few fuel up under our belts.
By the way, what kind of mileage are you guys getting in the real world with the new emissions engines? I have two IH 466 and they are getting about 6.5 to 7 mpg on the route. I have a neighboring school who says he's getting about 9 with his new Cummins engines. |
Bryan |
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C2FAN
Senior Member
United States
114 Posts |
Posted - 04/13/2011 : 1:17:55 PM
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Thanks bwest. That is pretty nice that your supplier is giving you the credit up front.
The two buses that I have been keeping an eye on are seeing 9mpg(C2,240ISB,72pax)and 8mpg(HDX,260ISB, 84pax) |
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bwest
Administrator
United States
3820 Posts |
Posted - 04/13/2011 : 3:40:54 PM
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Have you been having any trouble with any of the emissions components? I know it seems as if most of the problems that are posted here are related to emissions (that may just be my perception though).
Another interesting issue we are seeing with this propane bus is that the students are getting to the bus later than normal in the morning. When the driver ask what was up with them not getting on the bus the same as they had been all year they said they couldn't hear the bus coming down the road. Now that's funny if you ask me!!! |
Bryan |
Edited by - bwest on 04/13/2011 3:41:30 PM |
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bluebirdvision
Top Member
USA
1081 Posts |
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bwest
Administrator
United States
3820 Posts |
Posted - 04/13/2011 : 4:37:38 PM
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Dual exhaust with glass packs would take care of that you know. |
Bryan |
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bluebirdvision
Top Member
USA
1081 Posts |
Posted - 04/13/2011 : 5:22:33 PM
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Yeah I had originally wrote something like that in my post and then I deleted it.... I wonder if you could up the horsepower even more, by putting a "high flow" exhaust on one. Not that you'd need any more than 325hp!
Would you mind taking some video so everyone can hear how quiet a LP Vision is? |
Facebook Page: Blue Bird Corporation Fans
https://www.facebook.com/home.php?sk=group_212311114614&ap=1
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bwest
Administrator
United States
3820 Posts |
Posted - 04/13/2011 : 8:24:39 PM
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I'll see what I can do. The only video capability I have is on my Kodak Easy Share camera. I have done it before but the transfer to Photobucket is, well, interesting.
I wouldn't want any more horses. I was talking to the driver today and he said when he pulled out in front of our school (20 mph zone) after picking up for the pm route. He found himself catching up to the traffic ahead of him much faster than before. Therefore he had to watch it or he would have been up into somebody pretty fast.
As I had said before this thing is pretty snappy. |
Bryan |
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bwest
Administrator
United States
3820 Posts |
Posted - 04/20/2011 : 3:27:20 PM
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Just to clarify, I am not having trouble with fuel in the oil on this propane bus.
I also will not have any EGR trouble, turbo trouble, air to air cooler leaks, or bio-fuel gell. Nor will I have trouble with stuff growing in my bulk tank, emission componet trouble, or DEF problems.
I'm sorry, I just had to give a jab there after reading about the poor soul(s) with problems with "making" oil. |
Bryan |
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matts4290
Advanced Member
224 Posts |
Posted - 04/20/2011 : 8:39:41 PM
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What about problems associated with cold weather?
I'm not sure exactly, but someone mentioned it to me. |
We can't all be conventional!
http://www.youtube.com/user/matts4290 |
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RichBusman
Advanced Member
453 Posts |
Posted - 04/20/2011 : 9:54:51 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by matts4290
What about problems associated with cold weather?
I'm not sure exactly, but someone mentioned it to me.
Older propane buses were nightmares in the cold weather. The newer propane systems are liquid injection and do not suffer poor cold weather performance. There are quite a few of these units in NY state, and they have been doing quite well on the cold days.
Also for anyone interested, got fuel economy info on a 2010 Collins Nexbus propane unit, which is a 27 passenger on a Chevy chassis. Getting around 7.5 mpg on a mixed driving route. Reports up to 9 MPG on other propane small buses nationwide.
Currently, price of propane is $1.91 and gas is $3.28 to New York school districts. Propane would also be eligible for 50 cents per gallon credit from the Feds. But even without the credit, still a significant difference. It will be interesting to see if the price of propane will continue to remain so much lower in comparison to gas and diesel. |
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RichBusman
Advanced Member
453 Posts |
Posted - 04/20/2011 : 10:27:12 PM
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Also, the math for the small school bus at current fuel prices (without propane credit)...
175,000 Miles (Life that this particular district will keep bus to, minimum)
Propane 7.5 MPG... 23,333.3 gallons @ $1.91 = $44,566.66
Gas 9 MPG... 19,444.4 gallons @ $3.28 = $63,777.77
Savings... $19,211.11
Savings with 50 cent credit... $30,877.77
Other incremental savings along the way are extended service intervals, very little chance of major engine issues, very little chance of replacing any emissions equipment, etc. |
Edited by - RichBusman on 04/20/2011 10:28:34 PM |
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bwest
Administrator
United States
3820 Posts |
Posted - 04/21/2011 : 05:38:44 AM
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I'll add to Rich's thoughts there by saying that a larger bus will not get quite as good of mileage as the small buses but the price of diesel is different too. In my area (for schools) diesel is $3.50 and propane is $2.00 before the 50 cent rebate.
Just got the fueling equipment approved by the fire marshal and working properly yesterday so I should be able to bring you some mileages soon. I will probaly not disclose them until I get the transmission shifting problem fixed though. This thing has a 2000 series Allison and it seems to be shifting late. The shift into high gear only happens above 60mph and even if you get it to shift as soon as you slow down below 60 it shifts back down. The rpms in high gear at 60 are about 1750 but at 59 your running about 2500 rpms. So I think this problem will impact my mileage quite drasticly. The driver thinks the shift points are too late on every gear. My local Allison dealer says it's just as easy as plugging into it and changing something. As soon as I can get an appointment it will be going to to get that done. |
Bryan |
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Fastback
Top Member
1500 Posts |
Posted - 04/21/2011 : 06:10:18 AM
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A gas engine likely will have higher shift points than the diesels as your peak torque is developed at higher rpm.
A quik look in the "fact book" shows the peak torque on the GM 8.1 gasser is 450 @ 2,800 rpm compared to your MaxxForce DTs 560-620 @ 1,300 rpm |
Why yes, the ORIGinal CHARGER is a Fastback |
Edited by - Fastback on 04/21/2011 06:20:08 AM |
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bwest
Administrator
United States
3820 Posts |
Posted - 04/21/2011 : 1:53:09 PM
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| It should shift into high earlier than 60 mph though. Don't you think? |
Bryan |
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Fastback
Top Member
1500 Posts |
Posted - 04/21/2011 : 2:10:56 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by bwest
It should shift into high earlier than 60 mph though. Don't you think?
I dunno but "High" is overdrive and that engine is rated at 325 HP @ 4,000 rpm. It could be doing what it needs to be doing.
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Why yes, the ORIGinal CHARGER is a Fastback |
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bwest
Administrator
United States
3820 Posts |
Posted - 04/21/2011 : 7:03:00 PM
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| Hmmm..... I don't know either. I have been told that that transmission is supose to "learn" your driving habits and set the shift points acordingly. This thing has been a demonstrator for a few thousand miles so it's going to be "learning" a lot of highway miles. |
Bryan |
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bwest
Administrator
United States
3820 Posts |
Posted - 04/24/2011 : 12:41:23 PM
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| I was just reading another thread and didn't want to highjack it so I thouht I would add the comment here. The other thread was talking about how much of a bugger it is to bleed the system when you run out of fuel on a Maxforce 7. The driver ran this propane out of fuel last week because we thought we had more to empty than we did. I thought "oh man, this might be interesting to get this thing started". All I did after the bulk truck came out to fuel it was turn the key on and wait for the "wait to start" light went off and it started right up! Acted like nothing ever happend. No sputtering, nothing. |
Bryan |
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matts4290
Advanced Member
224 Posts |
Posted - 04/25/2011 : 07:14:48 AM
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So, I'm trying to pitch the idea to our bossman. I talked to him once about it, and he's not interested.
His reasons are:
Problems with cold weather.
Extra cost to purchase.
Finding a location to fuel (I know he would not consider putting in a pump).
Less MPG.
I want to make sure I have the facts straight.
So it looks like MPG is around 5- 6.6. Probably best suited for in town routes. Cold weather is no longer a limiting factor, and running out of fuel isn't such a big deal; at least in getting it restarted. Less MPG, but fuel is cheaper. Longer engine warranty. No DEF and no advanced EGR. Clean burning. Good for public image and advertising. Extra cost is around 5-7,000 extra new. I don't know what the current price of propane is here, but diesel is right at $4.00 a gallon.
How long does this fuel credit last?
How about safety and liability issues?
Any other points to add? |
We can't all be conventional!
http://www.youtube.com/user/matts4290 |
Edited by - matts4290 on 04/25/2011 07:21:17 AM |
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Fastback
Top Member
1500 Posts |
Posted - 04/25/2011 : 07:31:37 AM
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 How is it good for public image when people pay $2.00 per gallon plus for propain to heat their homes and the government is promoting more demand for LP by giving out 50 cent per gallon credits to encourage use as an alternative motor vehicle fuel?
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Why yes, the ORIGinal CHARGER is a Fastback |
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matts4290
Advanced Member
224 Posts |
Posted - 04/25/2011 : 07:54:56 AM
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Ok, so I think I just lost my bargaining chip. I found out that there is a difference in price between propane and propane for use in motor vehicles. I just called around to get prices. I am astounded at the varying prices.
The best I found was $2.84, figuring that we would buy about 50 gallons each time, delivered. This particular place said they would set up an onsite station with a lease of $1.00 per year if we by more than 600 gallons per year, if not its a $100.00 for less than 600 gallons, but the lady was not sure about set up costs. She said that they only have one other customer that does this, but this lowers the cost of fuel to do so.
The other prices were $3.00, $3.75, $3.85, and $4.00 a gallon. |
We can't all be conventional!
http://www.youtube.com/user/matts4290 |
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RichBusman
Advanced Member
453 Posts |
Posted - 04/25/2011 : 08:09:12 AM
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Sounds like they don't know what they are doing. LP for vehicles to school districts is tax exempt, then you get a credit on top of that.
As I stated earlier, districts in NY are under $2.00, then get a rebate so they are at around $1.40-1.60 a gallon. |
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bwest
Administrator
United States
3820 Posts |
Posted - 04/25/2011 : 08:28:21 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by matts4290
So, I'm trying to pitch the idea to our bossman. I talked to him once about it, and he's not interested.
His reasons are:
Problems with cold weather.
Extra cost to purchase.
Finding a location to fuel (I know he would not consider putting in a pump).
Less MPG.
I want to make sure I have the facts straight.
So it looks like MPG is around 5- 6.6. Probably best suited for in town routes. Cold weather is no longer a limiting factor, and running out of fuel isn't such a big deal; at least in getting it restarted. Less MPG, but fuel is cheaper. Longer engine warranty. No DEF and no advanced EGR. Clean burning. Good for public image and advertising. Extra cost is around 5-7,000 extra new. I don't know what the current price of propane is here, but diesel is right at $4.00 a gallon.
How long does this fuel credit last?
How about safety and liability issues?
Any other points to add?
Everything that you said here is correct to my knowledge except the mileage. I am not sure yet what we are going to get with our bus but it looks to be less than what the company advertises (6.6).
As for the price of fuel that you mentioned in your last post, I'm, of course, not in your location but it is interesting that your price is that much different than mine ($2 before 50 cent discount). But there again my price of diesel right now is right around the $3.50 mark.
It's not hard to figure savings when you count the fact that there is less maintenance. Start figuring cost of oil, filters, parts cost, labor, & down time and you get a pretty clear picture.
I've been telling everyone here on the forum and around our school area that I am not an enviromentalest, and I'm not. But if you were to ever walk behind a propane bus and then a diesel bus you would be singing the praises of clean burning fuel. Now, in my area we are so sparsely populated that there is no danger in having smog or anything close to that. But in a highly populated area I can see how there could be a concern about emissions and this engine seems to be the answer to that concern. Yes I know the new diesels are cleaner. My problem with them is they are getting too complicated. My goodness how many parts are we going to have to add to these things and how much money will the owner have to spend on them after the warrenty is gone. It's not like it was in the late 70s early 80s when you could just rip the smog stuff off after the warrenty was out. We are going to have to fix these engines wheather we like it or not. That is one of the reasons I think propane is the answer. If you are telling yourself right now "we trade or lease new buses every 5 years & we won't be having to replace any of the emissions components after the warranty is out" you might want to rethink that. Let's face it, our state governments are in deep trouble and they don't think about cutting aid to those sitting on their can watching TV and drinking beer. No, they want to cut police, fire, & schools. Where does a school cut first, we all know it, transportation!
Again I am not an expert but it seems I am learning a lot these days. Unlike a salesman or company man I will tell you when I am having problems & you and I can both make up our minds if we want to go with (or in my case stay with) this engine.
Edit: I forgot to mention the rebate. As far as I know it is over after the end of this year (2011) but it has been renewed several times before and from what I am hearing there is no reason to think they will not renew it again. (Who knows though with the changes going on it Washington, be your own judge on that one) |
Bryan |
Edited by - bwest on 04/25/2011 08:31:27 AM |
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Fastback
Top Member
1500 Posts |
Posted - 04/25/2011 : 08:34:04 AM
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| bwest, How large is the fuel tank on your propane Vision? |
Why yes, the ORIGinal CHARGER is a Fastback |
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bwest
Administrator
United States
3820 Posts |
Posted - 04/25/2011 : 09:10:06 AM
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That's a good question. The tag says 85.4 gallons but you can only fill them to 80% so that would make 67.6. But when we ran out I think we only got about 62 gallons in it. I ask the salesman if he would look into a larger tank for me. I haven't heard anything back yet.
Edit: Not that I would change this one but it would be nice to order a larger one for the next one we get (provided we do get another one of course). |
Bryan |
Edited by - bwest on 04/25/2011 09:11:24 AM |
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Fastback
Top Member
1500 Posts |
Posted - 04/25/2011 : 11:18:26 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by bwest
That's a good question. The tag says 85.4 gallons but you can only fill them to 80% so that would make 67.6. But when we ran out I think we only got about 62 gallons in it. I ask the salesman if he would look into a larger tank for me. I haven't heard anything back yet.
Edit: Not that I would change this one but it would be nice to order a larger one for the next one we get (provided we do get another one of course).
Ok, roughly a comfortable 250 mile range. |
Why yes, the ORIGinal CHARGER is a Fastback |
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bwest
Administrator
United States
3820 Posts |
Posted - 04/25/2011 : 12:02:08 PM
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| I'd say that but that would all depend on your route conditions. As I said earlier we are not getting the 6.6 but I am hoping when we get the trans issue resolved we can muster close to that. I am really probably already telling closely what we are getting but I don't want to post anything until I get this problem resolved because I don't want to misrepresent the truth. |
Bryan |
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bwest
Administrator
United States
3820 Posts |
Posted - 05/04/2011 : 09:39:12 AM
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Update: I have been dealing with our local Allision dealer on the shifting problem and they tell me there is nothing wrong. They called Allison and they told them that was the way the transmission was ordered. So I call our BB dealer and they said well how much would it cost to make the shift point changes? So I called the dealer back and they said well...... Allison says they can not change the shift points due to an agreement between Chevy, BB, & them. So I called the BB dealer back and they are now talking with the powers that be at BB corporate. In the mean time we are going to reset the TAPS and see what happens. The rep from BB said he had heard of a district in NY that had a propane with this same problem and he is going to see if they got their issue resolved. Does anyone up there know who that might be? If so I am wondering if you can direct me to them so I can talk directly with them. Thanks for any help I can get!!
Edit: By the way, the driver just loves this bus. If it weren't for me taking if from him to try and get the transmission problem resolved he would be happy. lol |
Bryan |
Edited by - bwest on 05/04/2011 09:41:45 AM |
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slippert
Top Member
USA
630 Posts |
Posted - 05/04/2011 : 11:49:28 AM
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| I know it's not NY but i was told that St Johns schools in central michigan purchased 10 or 12 of the propane BB's they might be able to give some info on how there buses are operating/shifting. can get you a name and number if you want, from my Mapt book. email me if you want it and I'll send them back to you, or could post here just wasn't sure if that would be proper? |
Edited by - slippert on 05/05/2011 04:14:50 AM |
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bwest
Administrator
United States
3820 Posts |
Posted - 05/04/2011 : 5:10:51 PM
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| Removed by author |
Bryan |
Edited by - bwest on 05/05/2011 7:56:44 PM |
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C.HARDY
Advanced Member
354 Posts |
Posted - 05/04/2011 : 5:48:13 PM
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| bwest I work on a 1996 GMC for another school that has a 366 with automatic. Its geared high and wont shift into 4th until around 50-55. It also winds up to around 3500-4000rpms before it will shift if you stick foot to it. I guess driving diesels all the time you get used to it not being wound up. Mileage on that bus is around 6 using regular gas in town driving. I'm very interested in that propane engine. I dont have the tools or training to be able to work on the newer engines. T444E is still "new" to me. |
"Hardybusman" |
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Propane Bus
