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Originally posted by whe8913

I'm curious to know how the MaxxForce 7 engines are performing. Anyone with these engines in operation, please chime in!

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Originally posted by Dvorak

I've heard the new Maxxforce engines with 2010 emissions have a tendancy to overheat. Does anyone have any knowledge about this yet?

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Originally posted by bcressey

There is A LOT of EGR...the 2010 IH pictures I have seen looked like overheating would be a real possibility.

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Originally posted by Nick

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Originally posted by Dvorak

I've heard the new Maxxforce engines with 2010 emissions have a tendancy to overheat. Does anyone have any knowledge about this yet?

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I wasn't aware that any of the EPA 2010 MaxxForce engines were out there apart from a few test engines.

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Originally posted by bcressey

guess i don't know anything. we'll see when IH starts running SCR when those credits expire.

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Originally posted by origcharger

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Originally posted by bcressey

guess i don't know anything. we'll see when IH starts running SCR when those credits expire.

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Or maybe the others will see the light and dump the SCR crutch.

Picture, specs. etc. of the 2010 MaxxForce DT are now available at;
http://www.maxxforce.com/Application/2010/Category/2010_Class_6-7/Product/2010_MaxxForce_DT

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Originally posted by Bassman

Sanbrutay, have you experimented with changing the DOC's on any of them? That is what has fixed 5 of my 10 MaxxforceDT's. I know it sounds goofy but it must have to do with the in cylinder dosing. We always changed the oil in our VT365's at 5,000 miles, but the engine is still a turd. We got our of our uptime work done before the winter and it helped a lot. All of my 05 and 06 VT's have had new injectors at least once. 19 of my 22 have had the split cap injectors installed and those have down well so far.

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Originally posted by bcressey

guess i don't know anything. we'll see when IH starts running SCR when those credits expire.

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Actually, even the EU manufacturers are giving up on SCR in favor of EGR.

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Originally posted by sbfreader

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Actually, even the EU manufacturers are giving up on SCR in favor of EGR.

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That is simply not the case. 2 European manufacturers, MAN and Scania, have introduced EGR engines that are compliant with Euro V regulations. Euro V is a standard roughly equivalent to the current US EPA07 standards. The next round of standards is Euro VI. Euro VI will bring European and US standards (EPA '10) into rough parity. Most manufacturers of engines for the NAFTA region and in Europe have stated that a combination of SCR and EGR is the path they will take to reach Euro VI requirements. Even MAN and Scania have stated that this will be their likely choice for Euro VI.

That combination of SCR and EGR is exactly what 90+% of engines manufactured for the NAFTA market for classes 6, 7, and 8 vehicles will be using beginning January 1, 2010.

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In October, Euro 5 emission standards go into effect for EU (European Union) countries, although thanks to incentives for early compliance such as road toll reductions in Germany and tax benefits in Denmark, there are already thousands of Euro 5 compliant vehicles on the road. Most manufacturers have relied exclusively upon SCR to meet Euro 4 and Euro 5 limits for NOx and particulates, including DAF, Iveco, Mercedes Benz, Renault and Volvo.

For 2010 in the U.S., however, SCR alone won’t be enough to get the emissions reduction job done. U.S. standards are stricter than European standards and will remain so until 2012 when Euro 6 will bring European standards much closer to the U.S. 2010 limits (and to Japan’s 2009 standards).

“In Europe, they can use just SCR now because the standards are not as severe as they are in the U.S.,” said Gary M. Parsons, global OEM and industry liaison manager for Chevron Ornite Company LLC. “SCR systems are 80% to 90% efficient at dropping down NOx, so they can let a low level of particulates and a fairly high level of NOx out of the engine into the exhaust stream and then use SCR after-treatment to knock down the NOx to required levels.

“By Euro 6, however, that won’t be the case anymore,” he added. “They won’t be able to get all the way with SCR alone either. It will very likely cost a lot to go from Euro 5 to Euro 6, just as it did to achieve the 2007 emissions standards in the U.S. Road toll reductions and other incentives are not apt to be enough to offset the price difference for Euro 6 trucks, so Europe may experience a pre-buy in 2011.”

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Originally posted by sbfreader

No, Euro V goes into effect this year, 2009. Euro VI comes in 2012. However, Europe manages their emissions changes differently than in the US. Because they have verying taxes and tolls for road use, they give incentives (like reduced tolls) to carriers that adopt standards ahead of time. So right now, even though Euro IV is the current standard, you have a fairly large population of Euro V compliant vehicles because of that financial incentive. In fact, MAN and Scania brought SCR Euro V products to market early for just those reasons. Their EGR offerings are targeted offerings based on a number of factors in the marketplace. In fact, they will continue to offer SCR and EGR packages for Euro V. It's not a matter of choosing one over the other in their marketplace.

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In October, Euro 5 emission standards go into effect for EU (European Union) countries, although thanks to incentives for early compliance such as road toll reductions in Germany and tax benefits in Denmark, there are already thousands of Euro 5 compliant vehicles on the road. Most manufacturers have relied exclusively upon SCR to meet Euro 4 and Euro 5 limits for NOx and particulates, including DAF, Iveco, Mercedes Benz, Renault and Volvo.

For 2010 in the U.S., however, SCR alone won’t be enough to get the emissions reduction job done. U.S. standards are stricter than European standards and will remain so until 2012 when Euro 6 will bring European standards much closer to the U.S. 2010 limits (and to Japan’s 2009 standards).

“In Europe, they can use just SCR now because the standards are not as severe as they are in the U.S.,” said Gary M. Parsons, global OEM and industry liaison manager for Chevron Ornite Company LLC. “SCR systems are 80% to 90% efficient at dropping down NOx, so they can let a low level of particulates and a fairly high level of NOx out of the engine into the exhaust stream and then use SCR after-treatment to knock down the NOx to required levels.

“By Euro 6, however, that won’t be the case anymore,” he added. “They won’t be able to get all the way with SCR alone either. It will very likely cost a lot to go from Euro 5 to Euro 6, just as it did to achieve the 2007 emissions standards in the U.S. Road toll reductions and other incentives are not apt to be enough to offset the price difference for Euro 6 trucks, so Europe may experience a pre-buy in 2011.”

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The key here is what direction the US and Europe took a years ago on emissions targets. Europe went after Particulate Matter earlier and the best way to deal with PM is not produce it. EGR tends to produce high PM. Therefore, the Europeans went SCR to deal with their modest NOx reductions. The US went the other direction and tackled NOx levels first but they lowered PM emissions in 2007. EPA07 had a small NOx component and EGR was increased to deal with that. The real effort in '07 was reduced PM. This is why Particulate filters were added in '07. EPA10 lowers NOx even further (83% reduction) so SCR has been added to the existing EGR for most manufacturers. This way they can deal with PM and NOx by balancing. Euro VI does the same thing and it is expected that European manufacturers will use a combo of EGR and SCR to comply with Euro VI. Which is exactly where the majority of U.S. manufacturers find themselves in 2010.

Read up on it. There are plenty of sources if you don't believe me.

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Originally posted by sbfreader

No, Euro V goes into effect this year, 2009. Euro VI comes in 2012. However, Europe manages their emissions changes differently than in the US. Because they have verying taxes and tolls for road use, they give incentives (like reduced tolls) to carriers that adopt standards ahead of time. So right now, even though Euro IV is the current standard, you have a fairly large population of Euro V compliant vehicles because of that financial incentive. In fact, MAN and Scania brought SCR Euro V products to market early for just those reasons. Their EGR offerings are targeted offerings based on a number of factors in the marketplace. In fact, they will continue to offer SCR and EGR packages for Euro V. It's not a matter of choosing one over the other in their marketplace.

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Originally posted by bcressey

You are exactly right. Not a lot of people are reading into V and VI correctly. The EGR folks only give out part of the info when they tell everyone what Mann and Scania are doing for V. It sounds like they may need to be back to SCR with EGR for VI which is what is equivalent to EPA 2010 and is why everyone except IH will be there soon. Once IH's credits are gone, I think they will be there too.

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Originally posted by Rich

Here is a question... have any medium and heavy duty 2010 emission engines actually been certified for compliance yet? This goes for EGR and SCR. Both sides keep on yelling that the competition hasnt passed EPA bench tests, but there seems to be no real accurate info.

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Pardon my thick headedness but if Mann and Scania "brought SCR Euro V products to market early" wouldn't their next emissions change in fact be Euro V1? And making such an announcement at a September 2008 Europeon autoshow about an emission strategy for a 2009 standard that you already meet anyway seems a bit far fetched. Perhaps they are doing Euro V1 early also for the reasons you outlined above?

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