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coolbusdriver
Top Member
Canada
1509 Posts |
 Posted - 06/24/2007 : 6:11:11 PM
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This issue came up when I was talking with drivers from another area. They expressed frustration at having to stop the bus at a railway crossing, saying that they felt it safer to just go across rather than stop.
It was mentioned that in the province of Alberta school buses did not have to stop, so why should we here in Ontario?
How many states do not require a school bus to stop at a railway crossing?
I find it appalling that drivers actually feel it a waste of time to stop and do this check before crossing. Our first job is the safety of our passengers and anything that will help keep them safe needs to be done.
What do you think? |
Edited by - coolbusdriver on 06/24/2007 6:12:29 PM
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03CV200
Top Member
United States
740 Posts |
Posted - 06/24/2007 : 6:36:03 PM
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| Drivers here in PA are required to stop at all railroad crossings which I think is a very good idea when students are on. However, I don't see why an empty bus couldn't cross without stopping, what would it hurt? |
-Dave |
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bsaund09
Top Member
USA
609 Posts |
Posted - 06/24/2007 : 6:52:58 PM
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| yes even stopping at railroad crossing does not prevent accidents and there have been some really bad ones but imagine what the statics would be if we didn't stop. I never understood stopping empty myself but then practise always makes perfect. There are crossing where trains are still moving at a full rate of speed and these school buses could never out run them. |
keep those buses rolling
http://www.flickr.com/photos/tags/schoolbushistory |
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JC Theriault
Top Member
Canada
1326 Posts |
Posted - 06/24/2007 : 7:11:07 PM
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Many provinces and states are implementing "exempt" crossings, especially where stopping the bus in high speed traffic makes the bus a target for a rear end collision. In Moncton NB there are 3 particular crossings on the Trans Canada Highway. According to the provincial motor vehicle act, buses are suppose to remain in the right lane and stop while transports and other vehicles zip by, often well over the posted limit of 110Kms.
Last time I travelled through the area I noticed new "exempt" signs posted overhead. The tracks in these locations only service sidings in the industrial parks and you might see a train on each one a couple of times a month in the overnight hours.
If you can see well beyong the road along the tracks, the crossing is signalled and is not a main line track then I have no problem with exempting them.
JC
PS - this is a great improvement over the changes that occured slowly over the last few years I drove there. You would fail your road test if you pulled onto the shoulder to get out of traffic at these locations, then they tried to fail drivers for using 4-ways when approaching the tracks and staying the right lane. They felt brake lights were enough warning for traffic behind you! They finally gave in and allowed you to use the 4-ways to let traffic know you were becoming a slow moving hazard and now have the exempt signs in place to avoid stopping. |
Edited by - JC Theriault on 06/24/2007 7:16:14 PM |
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bus724
Top Member
USA
1609 Posts |
Posted - 06/24/2007 : 7:21:53 PM
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| Good idea, the only problem is by posting "exempt" that implies that the track is never used. Around here you only see "exempt" on an abandoned line, meaning trains will NEVER run there. Drivers who are familiar with the crossing may get so used to seeing the "exempt" sign and not stop even if the lights are flashing. |
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JC Theriault
Top Member
Canada
1326 Posts |
Posted - 06/24/2007 : 7:32:31 PM
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If the driver is not looking past his/her bumper and at his/her surroundings then I think we can agree that they probably wouldn't see an oncoming car or a traffic sign. I don't think the exempt sign will encourage drivers to be unsafe and inattentive around railway crossings. Plus around here a track is still "signed" until the tracks are removed from the roadway. I drove several routes where the tracks were still in the roadway yet they were removed past the shoulder, as per the law the signs were still standing. Also saw the same where tracks had been paved over yet not removed.
JC |
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Sam
Advanced Member
United States
390 Posts |
Posted - 06/25/2007 : 01:40:44 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by JC Theriault
I drove several routes where the tracks were still in the roadway yet they were removed past the shoulder, as per the law the signs were still standing.
JC
I had at least one crossing like that in NC, and we still had to do the procedure. It was part of the test course for a loooooong time, and yes, people failed for not stopping at the tracks (all 16 feet of them!)
I would certainly hope that Canada has nation-wide regulations on school buses stopping for RRX? |
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JC Theriault
Top Member
Canada
1326 Posts |
Posted - 06/25/2007 : 09:11:39 AM
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Hi Sam, The traffic laws are a provincial responsability and yes buses are to stop at railway crossings unless, and once again it depends on the province, the crossing is somehow exempted. Of course Transport Canada and the railway industry also promote crossing safety.
The crossing proceedures can differ from province to province. NS requires a driver to stop, open the door, look/listen, close the door and proceed if safe. NB requires the driver to stop, open the door, look/listen then proceed with the door open and only close it once the bus has cleared the tracks.
JC |
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80-RE4
Top Member
USA
5700 Posts |
Posted - 06/25/2007 : 3:30:50 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by coolbusdriver
This issue came up when I was talking with drivers from another area. They expressed frustration at having to stop the bus at a railway crossing, saying that they felt it safer to just go across rather than stop.
It was mentioned that in the province of Alberta school buses did not have to stop, so why should we here in Ontario?
How many states do not require a school bus to stop at a railway crossing?
I find it appalling that drivers actually feel it a waste of time to stop and do this check before crossing. Our first job is the safety of our passengers and anything that will help keep them safe needs to be done.
What do you think?
All states require school buses to stop before they go over the tracks to make sure it's clear. I follow MA guidelines whenever I go to any state (The states I travel too are usually CT,RI,NH) so I will follow MA procedures, make sure it's clear and procede. Of course, making sure also that it's clear on the other side.
I think that the drivers who don't want to check the tracks before they cross have lost their minds. It only takes about 30 seconds. |
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wgloff
Senior Member
USA
54 Posts |
Posted - 06/27/2007 : 03:26:37 AM
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Congers, NY 1972. Look it up.
Stop at all railroad tracks, it's the law. |
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JC Theriault
Top Member
Canada
1326 Posts |
Posted - 06/27/2007 : 08:39:29 AM
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wgloff - I looked up that collision and you are comparing apples to oranges when it comes to conditions. I have no problem with exempting certain crossings if -
1. they are low speed tracks,
2. visibility distance from the roadway along the tracks is clear for an above average distance,
3. the tracks are used to service a "siding" or other infrequent use,
4. the crossing is equipped with signals OR a railway employee is used as a flag person when trains are present, and
5. stopping at these tracks puts the bus in a position to be involved in a collision with high speed traffic - a clear hazard to the bus passengers, other motorists and bystanders if an accident should occur.
JC |
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william
Top Member
USA
1912 Posts |
Posted - 06/27/2007 : 5:02:55 PM
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In CA, school buses are required to stop at railroad crossings whenever there are pupils on the bus except under certain conditions. A stop is not required where a traffic officer or an official traffic control signal directs traffic to proceed, at railroad tracks running along and upon the roadway within a business or residence district and at exempt crossings. As there are two types of exempt signs in CA, whether or not a stop is required depends entirely upon the color of the exempt sign.
At crossings where the exempt sign is yellow with black border and lettering, school buses are required to stop. Where the exempt sign is black with yellow border and lettering, school buses are not required to stop.
Years ago, we went to Kansas City to drive buses back to California and it was difficult for us to remember to stop at railroad crossings with empty buses. We, at our yard, have now adopted the policy of stopping at all applicable crossings whether we have pupils onboard or not. |
William |
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JK
Top Member
USA
7307 Posts |
Posted - 06/27/2007 : 5:27:47 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by JC Theriault
wgloff - I looked up that collision and you are comparing apples to oranges when it comes to conditions. I have no problem with exempting certain crossings if -
1. they are low speed tracks, ...
Just a note here. Most crashes and deaths happen while trains are traveling less than 20 MPH at gated crossings.
Many years ago we had a RR crossing that we had to stop at even though it was virtually impossible to locate. A bulge in the field was the only indicator that tracks had actually existed. Complaints galore.
The entire two-lane highway was eventually replaced with a new four-lane road, the tracks gone from under the road and no longer required to stop. I noticed the field was leveled as well, so perhaps the RR gave up the property or sold it to the farmers.
In any case unused tracks ought to be required removed from the road within one year of none use. I do not like exempt signs and restoring a track across a road if needed again is not a major event. However, constantly stopping at unused tracks is a major hazard, a practice that can and should be eliminated. (jk)
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Properly train, effective support and pay that retains. |
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dweaver
New Member
USA
7 Posts |
Posted - 07/03/2007 : 07:47:53 AM
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Here in Texas we have to stop unless police officer waves you through, or "exempt" or "Tracks out of service" signs are posted. The big problem here is finding out WHO is responsible for out of service crossings, especially once they have pulled up the tracks in some areas but left them in others. Often times it is not the railroad that is responsible and calls to them land on deaf ears. You have to call your highway department. Finally found the right phone number and the highway department got the signs up - took 2 weeks more, but in the mean time we had all drivers stop any way (tracks ended past the road edges.) just to keep them in the habit and its the law.
Bus57 "Big Yellow Beast" |
Bus57 "Big Yellow Beast" |
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Thomas Ford 85-16
Top Member
USA
4177 Posts |
Posted - 07/03/2007 : 5:17:13 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by JK
[quote]I do not like exempt signs and restoring a track across a road if needed again is not a major event.
I disagree with that. Any track laying or maintenance requires a significant amount of engineering. And I'm not so sure we should start telling private corporations how to manage their property that we are crossing*. I do agree though, that for best overall safety, unused tracks should be addressed immediatley, perhaps by removing the signs (and making the law such that school buses do not have to stop at unmarked crossings) and maybe even installing car derailers to ensure absolutely no rail traffic crosses that road while the signs are down (these are devices that cause the car to jump the track, frequently used in yards).
In Michigan we have to stop at any track, marked or not, unless it is controlled by a red-yellow-green traffic signal, is on a limited access highway (this would be an interstate or other freeway), or if a police officer waves you through. You'll see an Exempt sign every now and then BUT they are only discussed in the laws regarding general traffic. The act that regulates school bus traffic makes NO mention of the Exempt signs, so I think that means school buses must still stop. I've done so myself... On one highway, there is an unsignaled crossing (has a crossbuck only) with exempt signs and the tracks severed on each side of the road, and so with my interpretation of the law I still stop there. I'm going to ask my trainer the next time I see her.
*That statement was not to indicate that a rail road should do something unsafe if it pleased. I've met a few rail road civil engineers and managers and their attitude was always about safety. They'd rather have grade crossings eliminated altogether, and install bridges. |
Mike's Bus Yard - http://buses.zwebpages.com - Since 1999
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bus724
Top Member
USA
1609 Posts |
Posted - 07/03/2007 : 7:36:35 PM
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At one of our safety meetings this year, a guy from Operation Lifesaver did a presentation on railroad crossings. From what he told us, I'd think that would be a good organization to call with concerns about specific crossings, whether it's exempting an unused crossing or trying to improve sightlines down the tracks.
In CT, buses are required to stop, unless posted "exempt" or otherwise directed by a traffic control officer. We have to stop whether carrying passengers or empty. I've been told, although I'm not sure if it's the law, that we should even stop at crossings controlled by a red-yellow-green traffic signal. We don't have that many crossings in the area I drive in (no railroads in town, a few crossings on charters), and I've yet to encounter a crossing where it would be unsafe to stop. However, I know they exist, and I agree it's an issue that needs to be addressed. |
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MellowYellow
New Member
United States
1 Posts |
Posted - 07/19/2007 : 8:30:27 PM
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I don't understand how stopping at at RRXing would be unsafe? A school bus makes many stops, and that should be expected of a school bus.
In the case of a RRXing.. the hazards would be flashing, the bus will slow down.. that in itself should tell a following car that the bus probably will be stopping. It's big, it's yellow.. not hard to see, why would it be unsafe?
In PA, as a previous poster stated, it is the law that school busses must stop at all RRXings.. marked or unmarked. Unless: 1) an "Exempt" sign 2) it's controlled by an officer or flagman 3) it has a functioning traffic control and it's showing green.. or 4) it has a "tracks out of service" sign.
You are required to activate your hazards upon approach, stop 15'-50' away in the right lane, put the parking brake on, open the window and door, shut all controls that may impair hearing, quiet the kids down (if there are any on the bus), carefully look and listen. Then drop the bus into the lowest gear, close the door and release the parking brake. Procede over the tracks without shifting gears (shifting gears is an automatic failure on the driving test)..
Sounds like a lot, takes about 30 seconds. If it only saves 1 child from now till the end of time.. it's time well spent.
By the way.. oncoming trains have an optical illusion that makes them appear to be going much more slowly than they really are. I don't know why, but it's a fact. NEVER try to outrun a train in any vehicle!
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drivin4safety
Advanced Member
United States
259 Posts |
Posted - 07/20/2007 : 07:06:15 AM
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As a matter of practice I stop at all RR crossings when I drive a bus, not only is it the way I was trained, but when I was a student riding on the bus it always stopped for the rr tracks. Occasionally I find myself stopping for tracks in the semi truck I drive, many times it is only when I reach for and miss the service door handle that I realize what I did. Well that and sometimes the amount of chatter on the CB radio. When I went through the new SB driver training there was a video that was made in Idaho I believe in conjunction with Operation Lifesaver that shows an empty SB being demolished by a train traveling thirty miles per hour. There were several cameras and one or two on board. If memory serves correctly the service door and the front section of bus body where the train hit exited through the drivers compartment. Its one I see in nightmares. Uuugh!
Mike |
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maddoxdy
Active Member
United States
35 Posts |
Posted - 07/20/2007 : 3:44:34 PM
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quote:
As a matter of practice I stop at all RR crossings when I drive a bus, not only is it the way I was trained, but when I was a student riding on the bus it always stopped for the rr tracks. Occasionally I find myself stopping for tracks in the semi truck I drive, many times it is only when I reach for and miss the service door handle that I realize what I did. Well that and sometimes the amount of chatter on the CB radio.
Just tell the other trucker's you forgot you weren't hauling hazmat this time.
In PA. ALL buses, not just school buses must stop.
I've got a question that's been bugging me about the practicality of all the steps.
I'm alright with the "put on 4ways 600' before the crossing" up come to a complete stop 15 to 50 feet from the rail head.
Next is put the gear selector in neutral, set the parking brake.
In a full size bus (type C or D) we have the gear selector that has reverse up top, next down is neutral, the drive "D", then your lower gears. No park position. And the gear selector is right next to the the parking brake (assuming air brakes, also, I've only driven BB on IC chassis)
On a type A or cut away, the gear selector is just like that of a car, there is a park position. And the parking brake is foot operated.
For some reason, I find the action of shifting to neutral and hitting the brake a nice fluid motion on the standard bus. It is very awkward motion. The purpose of setting the brake on a std bus is the bus is in neutral and can roll freely. In park the vehicle should not move.
I guess what I'm asking is setting the parking brake on a vehicle that has a "park" on the gear shift redundant?
Doug
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JC Theriault
Top Member
Canada
1326 Posts |
Posted - 07/22/2007 : 6:16:59 PM
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Abandoned railway crossings.... grrrrrrrrr. I just did a day long convention shuttle/charter and the routing took me over 2 sets of long unused tracks at both ends of the block. The city has paved over the tracks but the signs and lights are still standing so it was stop, open the door, look, listen, close door and get going. I didn't do it all "by the book" when crossing empty but with passengers it was a different story as I understand the fine is $300ish + 3 points on your license. Did 43 round trips so thats a total of 172 crossing proceedures in 12 hours.
On a side note - thank goodness for using an older bus ('88 Blue Bird, 7.3 Int 5 Spd.) with a jacknife door on that charter, when empty it made for poor man's air conditioning while on the highway.
JC |
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maddoxdy
Active Member
United States
35 Posts |
Posted - 08/02/2007 : 7:17:21 PM
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Came across an "all but" abandoned crossing in Reading, PA near Albright College. Tracks come out of now where on the right and end at a chain link fence on the left. Most of the actual rail was in the street crossing, it had been cut on both sides. BUT! It still had the cross bucks, so it was a grade crossing.
I take great care in planning routes around the train lines.
Doug
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VetteMonte
Active Member
USA
33 Posts |
Posted - 10/02/2007 : 08:23:07 AM
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| In VA we stop at all railroad crossings unless there is a sign that says EXEMPT or a police officer or other uniformed traffic control person directs you to proceed. In Virginia Beach, there are only two railroad lines, both owned by norfolk Southern. One is near the Norfolk International Airport and is still active. The other runs nearly the entire width of the city and has been abandoned for years. Recently the city put pressure on Norfolk Southern to post EXEMPT signs on the abandoned line. They did 2 years ago. It was wierd not stopping, and we got SO many phone from nosy...I mean concerned motorists that we weren't stopping (these are the same "concerned motorists" who gave us the 1-finger wave when we WERE stopping...go figure). There were points where there were NO RAILS WITHIN 50 FT OF THE RD but the crossbucks were still there, thus we still had to stop! |
Stephen Kilby
Virginia Beach City Public School
2003-04 Bus Driver of the Year (Area A) |
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03CV200
Top Member
United States
740 Posts |
Posted - 10/02/2007 : 10:40:20 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by 03CV200
Drivers here in PA are required to stop at all railroad crossings which I think is a very good idea when students are on. However, I don't see why an empty bus couldn't cross without stopping, what would it hurt?
I stand corrected, in PA you are not required to stop at railroad crossing that are controlled by a traffic signal, policeman, or ones that are marked "Out of service". My district, however, requires you to stop at any and all railroad crossings. |
-Dave |
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schoolbus64
Active Member
United States
28 Posts |
Posted - 10/06/2007 : 10:08:20 AM
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I think that stopping at rail road crossings is very important. Your top priority as a SB driver is the passengers. Plus it's better to be safe then sorry!
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Alyssa Hutton |
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NathanW
Advanced Member
United States
313 Posts |
Posted - 10/07/2007 : 07:14:35 AM
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In my commuter bus I was told that I only have to stop if I had passengers on-board. In the school bus I have to stop at all (with exceptions).
The weird thing around here is we have a lot of unused track that isn't exempt, but we have several that are exempt but are used regularly. *shrug* Strange things happen in the North Country. |
Nathan--Driver Extraordinaire |
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jclick
Active Member
United States
33 Posts |
Posted - 10/23/2007 : 07:07:35 AM
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| Sometimes it is more dangerous to stop at a RR crossing than to just cross. I always stop, but I have been in many instances where I was VERY uncomfortable. Do I stop at the rarely used tracks that I can see down from a distance or stop and get rear-ended by a tractor trailer going 70mph? |
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coolbusguy
Active Member
Canada
11 Posts |
Posted - 11/08/2007 : 6:39:33 PM
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"It was mentioned that in the province of Alberta school buses did not have to stop"
for the most part its true , unless of course it is an uncontrolled railway crossing (crossbuck no lights or gate) then school buses are required to activate 4ways ,stop no less than 5 meters from track, secure bus , open door and window and look listen and look again before proceeding .
and many carriers do enforce a stop at all railway crossings policy in rural areas regardless of it being controlled ... the exception is in major cities where this could cause an accident (Edmonton is a good example) and even in major cities , the law does state we have to stop for uncontrolled crossing within city boundries. |
First Student Canada
"If you cannot do it SAFELY... Don't Do It!" |
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bluebird#12
Active Member
25 Posts |
Posted - 12/02/2007 : 6:18:38 PM
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Over the past 2 weeks I have witnessed a bus repeatedly go over a railroad crossing and NOT STOPPING. My question is...Would you report the driver?? He does NOT work for the same town or company.
Here in MA we are required to stop at all RR Crossings. The RR Crossing is on a very busy HWY (RT 9 Framingham) FYI - it is not a Framingham driver - it is a Boston Public School Bus.
One of my co-workers thinks I should keep my mouth shut and not tell as it is not my business. She said she would never tell on another driver regardless if they work for the same town or not. I told her that its a major offense and they could get a hefty fine or lose their job. This is an active track and I feel that if I don't call this in to the proper personnel and something happens then I would guilty knowing I could have done something to prevent it. |
bluebird#12 |
Edited by - bluebird#12 on 12/02/2007 6:24:48 PM |
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Gini
Top Member
USA
1249 Posts |
Posted - 12/03/2007 : 03:44:20 AM
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| bluebird#12- i had the same thing happen years ago, only it was a driver who worked for the same system, & in my department. i reported him. it was a safety issue, i had to. anything else, i figured it was their business. but the safety of the kids on his bus became my business the moment i saw the driver put the kids @ risk. |
1Peter 1:3 |
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Stopping at railway crossings
