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 Not allowed to yell at students anymore.
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bluebirdvision
Top Member

USA
994 Posts

Posted - 05/24/2007 :  1:27:38 PM  Show Profile  Click to see bluebirdvision's MSN Messenger address  Reply with Quote
I was talking to one of the drivers, she told me that the drivers have been told not to yell at the students. I do not understand this new rule, it is redicuolous (sp?) most kids don't listen on the bus unless yelled at. Has anyone elses district formed such a policy and if they have how do you feel about it.

My personal opinion:

The person that set this rule has not ever drove a school bus (atleast not in a long time), that is very clear and they probably don't work with the kids everyday. I think the bus rules should be left to the transportation department and only suggestions should be made.

I would now like to hear your guy's opinion:

bluebirdvision

ATRE 1507
Top Member

United States
673 Posts

Posted - 05/24/2007 :  2:35:23 PM  Show Profile  Visit ATRE 1507's Homepage  Click to see ATRE 1507's MSN Messenger address  Reply with Quote
You should be alowed...

That's final.


Bus 1507: 2001 AmTran RE

Student
Fairfax County
Area One Transportation
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IC
Top Member

USA
3413 Posts

Posted - 05/24/2007 :  3:37:51 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
My policy: I try to speak only loud enough to be heard....and sometimes that involves YELLING!
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disp29
Advanced Member

United States
202 Posts

Posted - 05/24/2007 :  8:18:54 PM  Show Profile  Send disp29 a Yahoo! Message  Reply with Quote
Hmmm...

You can't kick a kid off the bus anymore, You can't go back to the school anymore, You can't PHYSICALLY touch a kid anymore for ANY reason... and NOW... you can't YELL AT THEM! What's next?... we won't be allowed to talk to them soon. All I can say is, if that day ever comes in Pennsylvania, either they will be looking for someone else to do my route, or I'm gonna put a cage up between me and them (like a Prison Bus). Here, since I can't discipline them, I'll just let them kill each other... no worries to me, they aren't my kids!

kEvIn

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drivin4safety
Advanced Member

United States
259 Posts

Posted - 05/24/2007 :  10:28:23 PM  Show Profile  Send drivin4safety a Yahoo! Message  Reply with Quote
disp29 I like your direction with this but I'd like to take it a step further, I want to put some remote controls on my bus and let my computer do the work. With a realtime sattelite connection it should be possible.
On my bus though, while yelling is discouraged, it can still be done. I don't often have to though. The most effective thing I do is find a safe place, pull the bus over, stand up at the front of the aisle with arms folded and wait. A teacher taught me that. Sometimes silence can speak volumes.
Mike
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misterbill
Advanced Member

United States
303 Posts

Posted - 05/25/2007 :  07:32:41 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by drivin4safety

disp29 I like your direction with this but I'd like to take it a step further, I want to put some remote controls on my bus and let my computer do the work. With a realtime sattelite connection it should be possible.
On my bus though, while yelling is discouraged, it can still be done. I don't often have to though. The most effective thing I do is find a safe place, pull the bus over, stand up at the front of the aisle with arms folded and wait. A teacher taught me that. Sometimes silence can speak volumes.
Mike




I've only had to yell once. Don't remember why-I think I told the kids not to do something quite a few times and they wouldn't stop. I didn't like doing it-didn't think of stopping the bus.


Plus-I married-if I really need to yell I can do that when I get home!
LOL

High School Friend-"Hey! How are you! Well, I guess you can't be doing too well, you're driving a school bus."
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Lords47
Top Member

USA
714 Posts

Posted - 05/25/2007 :  07:45:30 AM  Show Profile  Send Lords47 an AOL message  Reply with Quote
I caught a kid in my pupil mirror spitting out the window at contruction workers last week - you better believe I yelled. I scared the daylights out of the teachers on the bus too. If the teacher's or chaparones aren't controlling the kids, and they won't listen to reason, than sometimes you have you raise your voice or scream to get your point across. That child will no longer be riding the bus either.

A loud, disruptive bus is unsafe for both you and the passengers. If you are distracted by events on the bus, than you aren't focusing all your attention on driving. If yelling gets you control of the bus after all else fails, than I'm all for it.


- Ryan
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03CV200
Top Member

United States
740 Posts

Posted - 05/25/2007 :  08:22:21 AM  Show Profile  Visit 03CV200's Homepage  Send 03CV200 an AOL message  Click to see 03CV200's MSN Messenger address  Reply with Quote
I think its ridiculous, kids NEED to be yelled at before they take anything seriously now days.

P.S. bluebirdvision, do you have anymore pics of that that 2008 Vision with the Allison 3000PTS transmission? I'd love to see them. If you have some and are willing to share, I'll give you my e-mail address.


-Dave
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BlueBird44
Top Member

USA
1639 Posts

Posted - 05/25/2007 :  09:22:49 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
We have some administration in my area who don't like hearing us "yell" at our kids. I personally don't yell at my bus sometimes I will "raise my voice""yell" when they have gone past a limit. I have a great bunch and do not have to raise my voice much with this bunch I state my intentions calmy each night before leaving school on the microphone "Sit back, bookbags in your laps, no talking, and you may read books or look out the window" since I have started doing this it's improved my bus greatly because everyone knows what I expect out of them before we leave. When I subbed on some of the other routes recently because I am the only one who knew them one bunch really had to have my raise my voice and I used to not mind doing that but since I've gotten mine under control it felt werid but I had to because that's all they understood.

But I do not think any policy should be made not to yell on the bus. I mean you shouldn't always be yelling but there are times you need to raise your voice to get the attention of your students.


IC-The Golden Shield of School Transportation

Edited by - BlueBird44 on 05/25/2007 1:53:27 PM
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03CV200
Top Member

United States
740 Posts

Posted - 05/25/2007 :  09:30:42 AM  Show Profile  Visit 03CV200's Homepage  Send 03CV200 an AOL message  Click to see 03CV200's MSN Messenger address  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by BlueBird44

"Sit back, bookbags in your laps, no talking, and reading books or looking out the window"



Are you saying that you won't let your kids look out the window? If so, you are one cruel bus driver, and if you were my bus driver, you'd have a lot of puke to clean up, I get motion sickness.


-Dave
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JK
Top Member

USA
7307 Posts

Posted - 05/25/2007 :  09:51:41 AM  Show Profile  Visit JK's Homepage  Reply with Quote
Is see this issue as a school bus environment noise level issue, not so much a bus driver yelling issue.

A few years back I used a sound meter to determine the level of noise on an older diesel bus I was driving. Could not hear the kids and had to shout for me to be heard. The noise meter, +/-2% accuracy and no spike reporting even in fast mode, reported an average of 110 - 112 db in the driver's compartment, (High 90's -low 100's dBA C Weighted).

You have to speak about 10 db over the noise level to be heard. At 100 dba would have to be be screaming if possible just to be heard a few seats away, if then.

After the routes my ears were ringing and hearing was dulled. By the end of the day I was shouting in the office when discussing normal issues. At home my Mrs. complained I had the TV too loud. I reported the noise levels in the driver's compartment of that older bus - the bus was pulled out of service and sold.

On many of the buses the sound levels in the driver's compartment may exceed safe levels, according to two meters I used to measure these levels on some of the buses I have driven. Studies report a max of 87 dba but reality may be higher - in my case in the 90 dba range in 90's frieghtliners and over 100 dba on older front engine BB transits with a leaking engine compartment seal.

Some of you are loud because you can't hear yourself when you speak.

If the kids are also loud that accumulates noise to levels that can damage the ears permanently over time.

It is not a difficult task to use a Radio Shack meter that can measure sound pressure levels (about $50) or even to borrow one from maintenance. Their meters often run in the $400 range but noticed readings did not appear any more accurate than Radio Shack's meters.

Neither types are as accurate as the $4,000 meters researchers use but are certainly close enough for estimating noise levels. If your reading is over 100dba with an RS meter, then 1 or 2% inaccuracy still leaves a dangerous condition.

On the bus I drive now the sound levels are consistently below the 90 dba level and no yelling is allowed of the bus, other then me when a rare and sudden need for compliance must happen now. But often I use the PA and a deeper voice to get attention.

Some states are watching noise levels on their school buses. The ARKANSAS DEPARTMENT OF EDUCATION RULES FOR THE SPECIFICATIONS GOVERNING SCHOOL BUS DESIGN, May 24, 2004, mentions (53.03) Every school bus shall be constructed so that the noise level taken at the ear of the occupant nearest to the primary vehicle noise source shall not exceed 85 dBA when tested according to the Noise Test Procedure. (Page 17, ADE 175-18).

Even a short exposure to loud noise -- say the 85 decibels typical of the interior of a city bus -- requires a rest for the ears of at least three hours, according to Gordon Inkeles and Iris Schencke, Ergonomic Living: How to Create a User-Friendly Home and Office (Simon & Schuster, 1994), 189 pages.

What if you can't rest your ears?

For those interested then using a deeper voice sounds louder than it really is and is often easier for kids to hear. The PA saves hammering you voice cords.

Yelling at kids is usually only a temporary solution anyway, rarely effective for long except perhaps where yelling is the normal communication level in a specific child's home.

But even then a calmer, lower voice tone and taking an action, such as moving the offending child to another seat, is often more effective.

Schools can make all the policies they want, but that does not remove the school bus driver's duty to establish and maintain a calm, safe school bus environment for the safe transport of schoolchildren. A loud, defiant and distractive child that refuses to follow directions is a known hazard and bus drivers are obligated to remove all known hazards from their bus environment.

Is glass, cans containing propane, skateboards and weapons allowed on your school bus?

These items are less dangerous overall than a screaming kid that refuses to follow directions, that is to say that far fewer bus crashes result because of glass and the other items sometimes transported on the school bus. Bus driver distraction kills.

I know that some districts forbid their drivers to talk to the kids. The environments on most of these districts buses display the out-of-control outcomes often present where other poor driver training exists and school support is subverted as well.

Schools demonstrate true concern for children where the bus driver can have a child promptly removed from his or her bus for refusing to follow directions. I've had kids escorted off my bus for refusing to stop chewing gum and refusing to place the gum in the trash when instructed, or when refusing to also sit closer to the front after depositing the gum in the trash. The issue is not the gum but that of refusing to follow the bus driver's directions.

If you are this tenacious then expect some administrators will not much like you, but the smart do not interfere with duty-bound drivers that do not yield to politics or unsafe practices.

Where this level of support does not exist, I must ask for what reason are you affected bus drivers doing driving for that employer?

Do you crave abuse, love being maltreated, like to be disrespected and used as a scapegoat when convenient?

Simple reality is that I find nothing management does that neglects children and maltreats the help any more offensive than school bus drivers that allows that sort of treatment to prevail on their buses.

I would rather be wrongfully terminated then to place any child or myself at unnecessary risk. jk)

Decibel Exposure Time Guidelines

Accepted standards for recommended permissible exposure time for continuous time weighted average noise, according to NIOSH and CDC, 2002. For every 3 dBs over 85dB, the permissible exposure time before possible damage can occur is cut in half.

Continuous dB
Permissible Exposure Time

85 db
8 hours

88 dB
4 hours

91 db
2 hours

94 db
1 hour

97 db
30 minutes

100 db
15 minutes

103 db
7.5 minutes

106 dB
3.75 min (< 4min)

109 dB
1.875 min (< 2min)

112 dB
.9375 min (~1 min)


Note: Free brochure for parents - "The seven highly effective steps to keeping your child safe" - Click Here for Link

FREE School Bus Safety Ads & Photo Library
Post Check, Hostage Takeover, Bus Fire and special effects photos now available Free to use at websites, in newsletters, memos, the local press, letters to parents and more. This is a very popular Website. If you can't get in bookmark the page and try again later.



There is no school bus driver shortage!
Properly train, effective support and pay that retains.

Edited by - JK on 11/23/2011 3:23:48 PM
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pbfreak30
Senior Member

USA
171 Posts

Posted - 05/25/2007 :  1:26:51 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
well in our county they really dont limit yelling and the drivers can take kids back if there is a behavior problem..and that sthe way i think it should be

ARROW transportation RP..the best out there!
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BlueBird44
Top Member

USA
1639 Posts

Posted - 05/25/2007 :  1:52:29 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
03CV200,

I meant to say I encourage them to look out the window or read a book. Many of them have jumped on the bandwagon of reading books and many students who I used to have trouble with have taken up reading books and their behavior has improved drastically plus it helps them with the schools goal to have students read more books and they get rewards for the number of books they read. I know I can't read books because I motion sickness myself so I encourage them to look out the winodw till we arrive to the "talking area".


IC-The Golden Shield of School Transportation
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03CV200
Top Member

United States
740 Posts

Posted - 05/25/2007 :  2:15:58 PM  Show Profile  Visit 03CV200's Homepage  Send 03CV200 an AOL message  Click to see 03CV200's MSN Messenger address  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by BlueBird44

03CV200,

I meant to say I encourage them to look out the window or read a book. Many of them have jumped on the bandwagon of reading books and many students who I used to have trouble with have taken up reading books and their behavior has improved drastically plus it helps them with the schools goal to have students read more books and they get rewards for the number of books they read. I know I can't read books because I motion sickness myself so I encourage them to look out the winodw till we arrive to the "talking area".



Oh, ok cool. Thats a good idea encouraging them to read.


-Dave
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vabuslover
Advanced Member

United States
246 Posts

Posted - 05/25/2007 :  2:40:47 PM  Show Profile  Click to see vabuslover's MSN Messenger address  Reply with Quote
Isn't that what the PA system is for (on buses equipped with one)? If they hear you on that it would get their attention. I am amazed at how many places have PA on the bus but the driver never uses it.
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disp29
Advanced Member

United States
202 Posts

Posted - 05/25/2007 :  5:08:59 PM  Show Profile  Send disp29 a Yahoo! Message  Reply with Quote
In our fleet, 1/3 of the buses have PA systems... I on the other hand, am just unlucky I guess. I've gone hoarse (sp?) twice this year already from yelling at my kids. They're a good group overall, but lets face it... they're still kids. Anyway, I went back in time to my days of when I was the Manager of my hometown Roller Rink and dug out my old floorguard whistle. Let me tell you, that whistle is a main stay on my bus. Works just as good as ANY PA system. You crack the Mic on a PA and they all shut up. Same way when I put that whistle in my mouth. I don't even have to give it a toot, as soon as they see that whistle in my mouth and me glaring back; the warning usually gets trumpeted long before I can. Ironically though, I did really have to YELL... and I mean YELL today. I had kids playing "keep away" with another kids ball cap. That is a BIG "NO, NO" on my Bus... so needless to say, I don't fall far from the Holy ranks either

drivin4safety,

I'm glad you like my Idea. We erect the interior barbed-wire in 44 next week! LOL!

kEvIn


Edited by - disp29 on 05/25/2007 5:11:28 PM
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JK
Top Member

USA
7307 Posts

Posted - 05/25/2007 :  6:40:57 PM  Show Profile  Visit JK's Homepage  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by disp29

... You can't kick a kid off the bus anymore, You can't go back to the school anymore, You can't PHYSICALLY touch a kid anymore for ANY reason... and NOW... you can't YELL AT THEM! What's next?... we won't be allowed to talk to them.

I remain at a complete loss as for what reason affected school bus drivers of any sense of decency would remain with that employer?

No semblance at all of interaction, on bus student training agendas, decent support and decent treatment -- just hauling unruly cargo.

Drive a truck part-time and make a better living.

Myself would pick up pop cans for a living before driving for that hostile an employer.

I really do not get what is with school bus drivers that work for these sorts. (jk)

Note: Free brochure for parents - "The seven highly effective steps to keeping your child safe" - Click Here for Link

FREE School Bus Safety Ads & Photo Library
Post Check, Hostage Takeover, Bus Fire and special effects photos now available Free to use at websites, in newsletters, memos, the local press, letters to parents and more. This is a very popular Website. If you can't get in bookmark the page and try again later.



There is no school bus driver shortage!
Properly train, effective support and pay that retains.


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misterbill
Advanced Member

United States
303 Posts

Posted - 05/26/2007 :  09:38:57 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by JK




Myself would pick up pop cans for a living before driving for that hostile an employer.

I really do not get what is with school bus drivers that work for these sorts. (jk)


This may sound critical-I don't mean to be-I learned many years ago not to say 'why would you work there' or 'I wouldn't work for someone like that'.

Most people do not a have choice to have the jobs that they have.

I would never drive for another company-I am 2 minutes from work-I've lived here all of my life-there is NO traffic and the kids are good. I could make three more dollars an hour in a town 8 miles from here.

High School Friend-"Hey! How are you! Well, I guess you can't be doing too well, you're driving a school bus."
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disp29
Advanced Member

United States
202 Posts

Posted - 05/26/2007 :  11:06:37 AM  Show Profile  Send disp29 a Yahoo! Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by JK

quote:
Originally posted by disp29

... You can't kick a kid off the bus anymore, You can't go back to the school anymore, You can't PHYSICALLY touch a kid anymore for ANY reason... and NOW... you can't YELL AT THEM! What's next?... we won't be allowed to talk to them.

I remain at a complete loss as for what reason affected school bus drivers of any sense of decency would remain with that employer?

No semblance at all of interaction, on bus student training agendas, decent support and decent treatment -- just hauling unruly cargo.

Drive a truck part-time and make a better living.

Myself would pick up pop cans for a living before driving for that hostile an employer.

I really do not get what is with school bus drivers that work for these sorts. (jk)

Note: Free brochure for parents - "The seven highly effective steps to keeping your child safe" - Click Here for Link

FREE School Bus Safety Ads & Photo Library
Post Check, Hostage Takeover, Bus Fire and special effects photos now available Free to use at websites, in newsletters, memos, the local press, letters to parents and more. This is a very popular Website. If you can't get in bookmark the page and try again later.



There is no school bus driver shortage!
Properly train, effective support and pay that retains.







Please do not get me wrong, we are allowed to maintain discipline on our Buses (at least right now) to the point of physical discipline. We can still yell, move seats, write them up, and the like, etc.,etc. But our School District mandates us since I work for a Private contractor. I can't speak for my employer, but I'm sure that if WE made our own rules... we'd be putting kids off the Bus and take them back to the schools. We've had drivers already that have stayed parked at the schools and have called for our TD to come down to deal with the problem. It really isn't as bad as what it sounds, but I'm comparing my situataion as a School Bus driver in 2007 and what I can do versus what my Mom and Grandmother could have done 10-15 years ago when they drove. The only MAJOR "No No" obviously is that you can't have ANY "physical" contact with the kids. Now, example: If you're sitting in the front seat and causing a disturbance, I can hit the front of the seat with my hand to get your attention, but if any part of your body is on the seat where I hit, wheter it's supposed to be there or not... I'm in some serious Deep Sh*t!

kEvIn


Edited by - disp29 on 05/26/2007 11:09:18 AM
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JK
Top Member

USA
7307 Posts

Posted - 05/26/2007 :  12:31:29 PM  Show Profile  Visit JK's Homepage  Reply with Quote
And please don't get me wrong, but I remain at a loss as for the reasoning that school bus drivers affected by a lack of good training, effective support and pay that retains, yet choose to remain with hostile employers.

There is choice, perhaps difficult, regardless, myself have lived in many areas of this country and pretty much liked them all.

This was presented in another thread and I'm presenting here as well:

My school bus environment is the product of nearly two decades of studying 'old-timer' concepts molded into modern processes. Literally, the videos of my bus environment appear to be students from the fifties, what you can still watch in old school bus driver training videos - out of the aisles, calm and following directions.

Have walked a treacherous path to that result - plenty have attempted to terminate me over one thing or another that they did not like about what I was doing or me. Mollycoddlers and politicians that can destroy a child's ability to act out decent and respectful behavior.

Where children have been repeatedly denied the opportunity to think and act out responsible conduct, betrayed by adult indifference, mollycoddled to near destruction of their brains, too many of these kids do seek out violence, the gangs, drugs and the friendships of perverts in an attempt to bring some balance to their life, in my opinion.

It is not my place to change kids or adults behaviors - not possible anyway. My effort to success was learning to control the school bus environment, not the kids. I do not try to change what a child thinks or does - that is their decision. My concern in the role of a school bus driver is finding the environment most suited to each child on my bus.

Bring a weapon on the bus and I'll help find an environment suitable that for that, such as a jail.

Bully a kid on my bus and the environment I then provide that child is in the school office whilst the rest of us go home.

A parent slandering me risks an environment provided by the court to help deal with such unseemly acts.

When the power of the controlled environment is understood it becomes possible to control that environment to suit certain purposes. The school bus driver no longer need dwell on how to change a child or adult to what he or she thinks is better. Probably wrong anyway. Most often we have no clue to what is better for someone else, only a criticism.

My first wife was like that, constantly trying to change me. A baker's dozen years together she was still trying to do that, with apparently some success. In our fourteenth year together she wanted a divorce, because I was not the man she married.

My second wife accepts me for who I am, demonstrates expert compassion and faithfulness that gives me cause to learn from her. I am whom I was fifteen years ago when we married, with perhaps one exception. I have learned from her how to accept others for who they are.

I know why I remain with my employer and remain involved in helping keep kids safe. I owe a debt to my parents and my community. When a child they loved and protected me - and held me accountable for my decisions.

I've chosen to carry that decency forward to our community's children and parents these days. That is my decision and sometimes my burden. (jk)

Note: Free brochure for parents - "The seven highly effective steps to keeping your child safe" - Click Here for Link

FREE School Bus Safety Ads & Photo Library
Post Check, Hostage Takeover, Bus Fire and special effects photos now available Free to use at websites, in newsletters, memos, the local press, letters to parents and more. This is a very popular Website. If you can't get in bookmark the page and try again later.



There is no school bus driver shortage!
Properly train, effective support and pay that retains.

Edited by - JK on 05/26/2007 2:40:38 PM
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baptistbusman
Advanced Member

USA
301 Posts

Posted - 05/26/2007 :  3:32:09 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
i think there is a differece in "yelling" because your driving a bus and the kids are loud and you have to get their attention. Plus you have to talk louder for kids in the back to hear you. Now I cant stand anyone screaming at a kid for any reason. My way of thinking is they get yelled at enough at home. If the situation arises where a kid is doing something that warrants screaming at them, then it's time to take them back home or remove them from the bus. I absolutely forbid any of our drivers to scream at a kid.

When i was in school, no one listened to the drivers adn teachers who were always yelling and screaming, it was the nice ones who had earned respect from being mature in the handling of the problems that were listened to.


1 Timothy 1:15 This is a faithful saying, and worthy of all acceptation, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners; of whom I am chief.

Edited by - baptistbusman on 05/26/2007 3:36:49 PM
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JK
Top Member

USA
7307 Posts

Posted - 05/26/2007 :  5:02:27 PM  Show Profile  Visit JK's Homepage  Reply with Quote
Your post seems a bit confusing to me. Of course there are situations when the bus driver may need to yell out commands. You pointed a few of those potential reasons out in your post. Then to forbid yelling is the confusing entry. I use every lawful option at my command, and on occasion yelling is appropriate. Exactly what occasions and when depends on the situation, not necessarily some policy or some person's dislike of yelling. I can agree that constantly yelling at the students can eventually bring little effect except perhaps a horse throat. But the total elimination of yelling? Wouldn't think that a constructive demand that can be applied to every situation out there in the real world. (jk)

Note: Free brochure for parents - "The seven highly effective steps to keeping your child safe" - Click Here for Link

FREE School Bus Safety Ads & Photo Library
Post Check, Hostage Takeover, Bus Fire and special effects photos now available Free to use at websites, in newsletters, memos, the local press, letters to parents and more. This is a very popular Website. If you can't get in bookmark the page and try again later.



There is no school bus driver shortage!
Properly train, effective support and pay that retains.



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baptistbusman
Advanced Member

USA
301 Posts

Posted - 05/26/2007 :  8:45:38 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
i was simply trying to say that sometimes you have to yell to be heard or to get attention. There's no need to be rude though when you are dealing with the kids.


1 Timothy 1:15 This is a faithful saying, and worthy of all acceptation, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners; of whom I am chief.
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drivin4safety
Advanced Member

United States
259 Posts

Posted - 05/26/2007 :  10:40:15 PM  Show Profile  Send drivin4safety a Yahoo! Message  Reply with Quote
I think that baptistbusman is pointing out the difference of speaking loudly and firmly in a loud environment and yelling which occurs when someone is getting frustrated and the volume goes up with the level of frustration. I also think there is a distinction to be made in the choice of words. One can raise his/her voice with the same vocabulary and inflection used at a lower level and those who "yell" tend to use vocabulary that they would not ordinarily use to make a point.

By the way misterbill I'm married as well I fully understand what you mean... though I'm usually the target of any yelling, my wife finds it very frustrating that I can keep my composure longer than she can.

Mike
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JK
Top Member

USA
7307 Posts

Posted - 05/27/2007 :  09:43:56 AM  Show Profile  Visit JK's Homepage  Reply with Quote
Yes, Yes, I understand the difference of speaking loudly and firmly in a loud environment and yelling which occurs when someone is getting frustrated ...

I do not like yelling on the bus, reserving that activity only to the bus driver when the driver deems necessary.

Although I agree with both of you in much of what you both are presenting, and consider you both decent fellows, there remain certain issues.

We are so blasted perfect at criticism and so blasted dumb at recognizing the need for better training and support, often including managers. Way too much time, energy, ego and politics are dedicated to blaming the bus driver rather than fixing the problem.

I do not accept that most school bus drivers are natural experts at controlling their voices in loud, energized, stressful and hostile environments. A frustrated bus driver is so often a poorly trained and inadequately supported bus driver that this reality might as well be considered a truism in this industry.

Nor is loud or anger an unlawful behavior or an unnatural adult behavior. Coaches use these tools to guide and motivate their players because it works. Do you want to win against death? Coach for safety.

We had a gal we called the screaming bus driver. It was her way and it worked the thirty some years she drove school bus accident free. Some of the most obnoxious kids one might imagine listened to her - out shouted the first day of school. Kids with big mouths out mouthed by their bus driver. She could be as calm and gentle voiced as most anyone, but to tempt her was a mistake known by kids and adults throughout the district. She drove the same rural routes most of her career and was well liked by the parents and even by most of the students. Not so much by some of the school staff, but they also listened the first time to avoid her wrath. She was not a frustrated or angry bus driver, simply an excited, energy-driven person with a drill sergeant acquired approach through self-training. Kids listened to her the first time, her route was very calm, much more so than the drivers that criticized her. I liked her.

At the same time we had a gal also with over thirty years experience that was perhaps the most gentle voiced person in the district. I liked her as well, presenting some of the same qualities and strategies my dad displayed when I was young. She was of the calmer sort that used a simple strategy. Disobey, talk harsh or disrespectfully and the discussion ends - off the bus and to the office. She often sat the students (k-8) as they boarded and that was their assigned seat for the trip unless she decided to move a student. She seldom gave a child an explanation for her decisions other than perhaps a hint muttered just before giving a direction. The child was to report to her what he or she did that resulted in her action - no other discussion with her - but the child could inquire from the other students when off the bus. She was gentle in the way she went about dealing with children, but there seemed the same fire in her presence as with the drill sergeant approach. The kids on her routes listened to her as well and her bus environment was very calm. Some of the drivers with hectic, loud bus environments, rather than learning from that woman, bickered about her and criticized her approach, because she didn't explain her decisions when dealing with a child and how come she could have a student removed and they couldn't - - (actually, these didn't dare have a student removed themselves, always wanting someone else to make that decision for them).

Both the screaming bus driver and the gentle bus driver in this story got along well with each other - they were good friends.

Although both bus drivers had my interest, the calm driver I learned much from. She was also my behind the wheel trainer. Now in her seventies she remains smarter, more alert and more eloquent than most decades younger. She understood managing children in an effective way that didn't increase the driver's stress. She dealt with any misbehavior while it was tiny, in its birthing stage - and most importantly the school did not subvert her decisions.

Most often frustrated bus drivers are normal people that have been forced to endue beyond their nature or training - training which may be none - NONE OF ANY WORTH!!! - their brain capacity overrun to ease effectively the constant noise levels and other pressures in their workplace environment. These are forced to endue constant disregard that becomes too much for the healthy to endue.

Most at that level of frustration eventually leave, not because they want to but because their professional needs are not being met through decent and appropriate training and effective support - and their self-training did not work for them.

Yet, another reason for the excessive turnover in this industry.

Mangers must stop with the excuses not to provide excellent violence prevention training upfront. Stop fixing blame and start fixing the problem.

The screaming bus driver in my story was perfect for the route she was assigned, previously one of, if not the worst route in the district. The calm bus driver was perfect for any route where the school would not compromise her authority on the bus.

Some of the drivers between these two extremes were mostly annoying because they seemed difficult themselves, undisciplined, b*chy and allowed to evolve their strategies naturally rather than with good violence prevention training upfront.

And the schools that subverted the bus drivers authority on their buses? These were deceivers (otherwise known as politicians) that seeded their school buses with disrespectful and violent children, a reflection of the adults involved that were supposed to be helping the bus driver keep kids safe. The harvest is obvious.

For many this is the later part of the school year. Just after Spring Break is when the harvest is often revealed. Any bus that is still loud and the environment is otherwise out of control is the result of a certain harvest reflecting adults behaviors - all that was ignored and grew has come to bloom.

Nothing at this point, even a student homicide on the bus can be blamed solely on the kids involved. The adults involved, including management and the school that allowed the bus to come to a violent harvest must accept their share of the blame for the violence on their buses, if not in-house, then most assuredly in court.

Far better to fix the problems early in the school year, then be wasting time and energy fixing blame this late in the school year.

I'll accept a screaming school bus driver before ever accepting a subversive school staff authority and any authority that wrongfully and sometimes unlawfully injures a calm, safe bus environment for children and a hostile free workplace for the bus driver. (jk)

Note: Free brochure for parents - "The seven highly effective steps to keeping your child safe" - Click Here for Link

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There is no school bus driver shortage!
Properly train, effective support and pay that retains.



Edited by - JK on 05/27/2007 10:16:03 AM
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disp29
Advanced Member

United States
202 Posts

Posted - 05/28/2007 :  01:27:31 AM  Show Profile  Send disp29 a Yahoo! Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by JK

And please don't get me wrong, but I remain at a loss as for the reasoning that school bus drivers affected by a lack of good training, effective support and pay that retains, yet choose to remain with hostile employers.



Well, all I can say is I'm glad that some of us are allowed such free reign that their employer's allow them (whether they like it or not) to do whatever they want (whether it is discipline or any other issue)because, "this is MY bus, and if you aren't going to play by my rules, I'll 'change your environment'". Like I said, some of us don't have it that easy; and it's not because we work for "hostile employers"... THAT'S the rules of our game, and we accept that and conform to those standards; and YET get the job done like every other School Bus driver.

I HAD proper, extensive training; my PAY retains me... and it is GOOD; and my employer is one of the most soft-spoken persons you could ever want to meet... FAR from hostile. So, It's very hard for me to buy into why those factors are the effectors. OH WELL... Who am I to argue or question anyone else? No one... but what I know, I'm gonna back up!

kEvIn


Edited by - disp29 on 05/28/2007 01:28:48 AM
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80-RE4
Top Member

USA
5700 Posts

Posted - 05/29/2007 :  08:53:57 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
You're supposed to (with a great big smile) pull the bus over (of course, there will be a bus pull off at the right time), turn the engine off, and say: everyone please quiet down, please quiet. Everyone quiet down, and you are supposed to repeat that until the person or persons who are causing the problems on the bus start to listen. Then you are to go on your merry way with a great big smile and finish the bus route! (in a perfect world of course, hmmm kind of reminds me of some Laidlaw videos we had to watch)

I really don't like to yell but sometimes you have to. If they don't let you yell, get a whistle.
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bluebirdvision
Top Member

USA
994 Posts

Posted - 05/29/2007 :  09:25:10 AM  Show Profile  Click to see bluebirdvision's MSN Messenger address  Reply with Quote
03CV200,

I misunderstood, I thought that the 3000PTS was the heavier duty transmission available. I did not realize that this meant it was a push-button transmission. So NO the 2008 Vision pictured does not have a push-button transmission

Shane Kirley
New York Bus Sales Delivery Driver. (I know its not much, but its a start)


Facebook Page: Blue Bird Corporation Fans
https://www.facebook.com/home.php?sk=group_212311114614&ap=1


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drivin4safety
Advanced Member

United States
259 Posts

Posted - 05/29/2007 :  7:28:18 PM  Show Profile  Send drivin4safety a Yahoo! Message  Reply with Quote
This topic really serves to illustrate just how different things are done from district to district and region to region. What one driver may take for granted as being "normal" another thinks is the most foreign concept ever brought up. In my district we are discouraged from yelling, but are allowed to do it if the situation warrants. In other districts and regions the driver may not be allowed to yell at students. I like this about the fleet forums, I'm able to learn very useful techniques to use with my students. I've only been reading/posting on the forums for a few months but I've learned an incredible amount of information and learned many alternate methods to dealing with different problems. I thank you all. Even when I don't see eye to eye with another member, it makes me think, and just that can be the difference between doing things the same old way or trying a different approach. BTW Amtran I have considered getting a coach's whistle for my sports shuttles, they get really really loud! With no passenger manifest on those I have very little idea of whom I need to write tickets for.
Mike
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SOS
Advanced Member

USA
253 Posts

Posted - 05/30/2007 :  10:53:23 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by vabuslover

Isn't that what the PA system is for (on buses equipped with one)? If they hear you on that it would get their attention. I am amazed at how many places have PA on the bus but the driver never uses it.



Exactly right vabuslover. No need to yell when a professional driver is in place and knows what the equipment is and what it's intended prupose is. If a driver allows the kids to be so loud that they have to yell to get their attention that driver needs to learn how to keep the noise level down.

You gotta Love em' to Carry em'
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bbvision12
Active Member

43 Posts

Posted - 11/26/2011 :  2:12:51 PM  Show Profile  Visit bbvision12's Homepage  Reply with Quote
At our school, when someone misbehaves, they are calmly told to sit up front, and if they don't listen, then the drivers may yell. When a severe disobedience occurs, the drivers sit the kids up front, explain to them what went wrong, give them a notice for parents, and let them know that they'll be washing the bus on a day with good weather.

It has only happened once, because we explain the disciplinary process to the children during bus evacuation drills.
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BluebirdFreightliner
Senior Member

USA
59 Posts

Posted - 11/26/2011 :  3:03:22 PM  Show Profile  Visit BluebirdFreightliner's Homepage  Send BluebirdFreightliner an AOL message  Reply with Quote
ok, this has gone to far, but our bus drivers can still yell as much as they want. but in the county next to us, it got so bad the only adult that could talk t othe kids on the bus was the attendent(we dont have those, though)

with Bluebird, ya get alot of bang for your buck.
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ltrain2010
New Member

7 Posts

Posted - 12/04/2011 :  01:28:07 AM  Show Profile  Visit ltrain2010's Homepage  Reply with Quote
I try not to yell at my kids, because I remember as a rider I didn't like being yelled at. I have had to make exceptions to that though, such as when my kids ran towards the bus as I was approaching their stop. I simply stopped back further, and as they boarded I told them that they are NOT to approach this bus UNTIL it has come to a complete and final stop. Another instance is if I catch them standing while the bus is moving. I tell them that they are NOT to be standing while this bus is moving, if they are caught again they will be written up. If I must yell, I make my best effort to make it purposeful.
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