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BBInt.10
Top Member

USA
1041 Posts

Posted - 09/08/2006 :  9:05:09 PM  Show Profile  Visit BBInt.10's Homepage  Send BBInt.10 an AOL message  Reply with Quote
I drive an '05 IC CE with the VT365. The bus seemed to have great power to it since I started driving it again for this school year. It had a lot of pep to it. One thing that I did notice was that the turbo charger was making different noises than it usually does. Nothing all too noticeable... just at times it would make a lot more whistling than normal. Performance seemed okay though. That is until this evening. I was carrying quite a heavy load, but I've done this charter many times before with no problems, and the bus should be able to handle it. The engine warning light came on, and after this happened, when I hit the next hill, I dropped down to 15 mph with it floored and it wouldn't go any faster. I can usually climb that hill at 25 with a heavy load. I went about half way up the hill at 15, then I seemed to get normal power back, and went the rest of the way up at 25. I dropped off, then went to start from a stop, and had a small incline to climb. The bus went about 3 mph up the hill... almost no power at all starting from a stop. But once it gets some momentum and I get going, regular power seems to kick back in. But when I come to a stop and have to start, there's almost no power. However, the power will kick in eventually. The lack of power is so bad that it would be dangerous to attempt to cross a RR track or pull out onto a busy road with this bus. I think it's something with the turbo because of the different noises it's been making lately. Any ideas?

bus724
Top Member

USA
1609 Posts

Posted - 09/09/2006 :  07:10:35 AM  Show Profile  Visit bus724's Homepage  Send bus724 an AOL message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Any ideas?


Get a Thomas or a Blue Bird
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ModMech
Top Member

USA
948 Posts

Posted - 09/09/2006 :  08:53:35 AM  Show Profile  Visit ModMech's Homepage  Reply with Quote
There are many thing that can cause this, and on a bus because they tend to idle a lot, the most common cause is sticking turbo vanes. The fact that this happened right after school started up again is another clue. No engine with a variable turbo likes to sit for long periods unused, or to idle.

This is a relatively simple fix, but not fast. The codes must be retrieved, repaired, and most likely the turbo cleaned. Count on a day for this.

If you want customer service, you NEED an International!
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busman53725
New Member

USA
8 Posts

Posted - 09/09/2006 :  1:57:01 PM  Show Profile  Visit busman53725's Homepage  Reply with Quote
have your shop check the turbo piping -possible hose off turbo or charge air system
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BBInt.10
Top Member

USA
1041 Posts

Posted - 09/09/2006 :  7:09:48 PM  Show Profile  Visit BBInt.10's Homepage  Send BBInt.10 an AOL message  Reply with Quote
Thanks for the replies guys. Probably a result of sitting all summer unused. Less than 200 miles were put on it all summer... it basically sat at the International dealer all summer waiting to get fixed (from what my manager told me, International had quite a parts shortage this summer). I'm crossing my fingers that it'll be in the shop for more than just a day... I always like driving the spares for a change! (I used to drive transit buses and I'd drive different buses every day, so having an assigned vehicle now is a little boring for me!) Our spares are '93 Blue Bird Internationals with the DT466 and air brakes; decent buses. Has anyone else noticed that the 3800 chassis rides a lot smoother than the 3300, and that you don't need to push so hard on the brake pedal on the 3800 to get it to stop? Also, I prefer the old black and gold parking brake knobs that are easy to push and pull. While the turning radius is better on the 3300 series, I think they took a lot of steps backwards in a lot of other areas.

If all your problems are behind you... you must be a school bus driver.
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IBTMech
Top Member

USA
973 Posts

Posted - 09/11/2006 :  6:17:15 PM  Show Profile  Visit IBTMech's Homepage  Reply with Quote
As has been noted in some previous topics, the problem with the IH turbos is with corrosion and lack of use.

In the ideal world of emission controls, these turbos would work perfectly if the vehicle were flogged throughout it's entire life, however, this is the real world. We all know that these vehicles will not be run that way and it's time IH has recognized their error in choosing this type of turbo. Using an exhaust side variable setup is asking for heat and corrosion related problems. Cummins is using an intake side variable turbo with far fewer problems.

What's it going to be like when these vehicles are 10, 15 or 20 years old? A new turbo every 6 months? I have our 3rd truck at the dealer right now with a code 353 set and number than a pounded thumb with 4500 miles on it.

Time for Navistar to have a major recall!

If it doesn't fit, FORCE it.
If it breaks, well, it needed replacing anyway.
Pullin' wrenches for 45 years.

Edited by - IBTMech on 09/11/2006 6:18:32 PM
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lovmybus
Active Member

USA
18 Posts

Posted - 09/12/2006 :  08:37:56 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
your lucky to have a dealer with the part...have been hearing some places are out and a lot of trucks linged up for when the new turbos come in ....

Edited by - lovmybus on 09/12/2006 10:03:24 AM
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ModMech
Top Member

USA
948 Posts

Posted - 09/15/2006 :  08:38:12 AM  Show Profile  Visit ModMech's Homepage  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by IBTMech

We all know that these vehicles will not be run that way and it's time IH has recognized their error in choosing this type of turbo. Using an exhaust side variable setup is asking for heat and corrosion related problems.


No recall is needed and to suggest that, is IMO, irresponsible. The SINGLE biggest factor is the V-8 turbo "issue" with sticking is the amount of idle time. Read the owner's guide for ANY VGT engine, even most w/o, and it states plainly DO NOT IDLE unnecessarily, and if you MUST IDLE, run up the RPMs. Most Owner's Guides are never opened, much less read cover to cover (or at all). Certainly the drivers are never told of the proper vehicle/engine operating. If they were, VGTs would be perfectly OK.

VGTs are NOT emissions devices, but ways to improve "pull-out" power, like leaving a stop light.

Basically it is not International's fault, or that of Borg Warner (Holset or anyone else) other than the OPERATOR that the turbos are sticking so badly.

That is not to say that they are perfect, because we all know they are not, but the corrosion issue is easily dealt with with a cleaning and application of HT anti-sieze to the internal moving vane parts. Once done, if not KILLED by IDELING, they are nealry 100% reliable.

quote:

What's it going to be like when these vehicles are 10, 15 or 20 years old? A new turbo every 6 months? I have our 3rd truck at the dealer right now with a code 353 set and number than a pounded thumb with 4500 miles on it.

Time for Navistar to have a major recall!



I say that is is time for the OPERATORS to start READING and following the operating manual's instructions!

If you want customer service, you NEED an International!
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Mechan1c
Top Member

USA
663 Posts

Posted - 09/15/2006 :  11:12:29 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Wow...I've got 18 DT466 CE's coming in the next month and these will be the first IC products we've operated. My average lifetime road speed in this fleet is 16MPH and these buses will be sitting unused in the summer months. This is a typical suburban fleet that operates in pretty heavy traffic, and we've run CAT powered buses for 20 years. They are not short of pull out power, and do not have chronic turbo problems. It sounds like maybe I'll need to train the operators to ???? To do what? Drive faster? We already have a no idle policy, we've had it for 4 years due to air quality and fuel consumption. So maybe we won't have any turbo problems. But I'm concerned...I'll keep you posted.
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IBTMech
Top Member

USA
973 Posts

Posted - 09/15/2006 :  5:45:37 PM  Show Profile  Visit IBTMech's Homepage  Reply with Quote
ModMech, I don't want to sound disrespectful. I know that you are right, however, school buses and rescue units DO have times when extended idle periods are necessary, especially in cold weather. Throttling them up during that time is SOP, yet these turbo problems persist.

Telling an EMT that he must not idle his rescue unit at an accident scene and shut it off simply isn't going to work. I have to deal with emergency vehicles on a daily basis and a large part of their uptime is sitting and idling. No way around it. With all those lights on they can't be shut down.

Telling a bus driver that he must shut down his bus for 4 hours during a basketball game in -10F weather with no means to plug in the block heater is a bad scenerio, too.

I don't know what the answer is, but it's a growing problem and it's going to get worse.

If it doesn't fit, FORCE it.
If it breaks, well, it needed replacing anyway.
Pullin' wrenches for 45 years.
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jeepcjron
Advanced Member

USA
259 Posts

Posted - 09/15/2006 :  7:00:52 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Dave can you email me the last 8 #s of the vin to RonK@dattco.com
i wont say that ih hasnt had some turbo issues. the actuater on the 446 is the same one cat uses and they had issues to. the 365 hasnt had big problems like the 466. part of the uptime on the early ones is a new regulator though.
idle time is a issue but its the condensation that is causing the lot rot. we have been running test buses with the new low sulfar fuel and it is showing a positive in the area of turbos. the biggest thing is the proper procedures for repair. i dont want to drag this out and will not get into the specifics.

yes ic has had some growing pains. in my opinion it is still the best bus out there. we run 1000 buses and sell close to that a year. i have had the enjoyment of driving several home from tulsa (1340) miles. i have to say that driver erganomics is excellent. i will not say anything bad about other companies products. i work on them all. in a time where every thing is drivin buy emmissions and dollars it is all be out sourced overseas for compent build. they are all the smae in these areas.
i have been a Ford guy my whole life and recently snapped and bought a Dodge (not a Deisel)my first new vehicle. tranny failed at 301 miles. my best friend a chevy under 1k steering colum bearing, another friend a Ford rear failed under 2k. just a refernce to nothing has the quality it used to.
I will still stand up and say that i would rather operate and repair my product and all others should believe in thiers. I am not a keyboard repairer that can tell you what is wrong nor can anyone else without putting my hands on it and following proper procedure. that is why i choose to stay out of threads like this. this is all said with no disrespect to anyone here or their favorites (easy to read posts wrong)thanks for listening Ronnie

its like a slinky! useless but fun to watch.
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BBInt.10
Top Member

USA
1041 Posts

Posted - 09/16/2006 :  6:44:31 PM  Show Profile  Visit BBInt.10's Homepage  Send BBInt.10 an AOL message  Reply with Quote
Hi Ron,

I got my bus back yesterday afternoon and it seems fine so far. My company buys mostly all their new buses from you guys. We got a bunch of IC RE's and BE's from you over the summer for another terminal. I've gotta say I'm missing the spare bus I had been driving... '93 BB IHC 360/air. The driver's window didn't rattle when open like my IC's does... the driver's seat didn't wobble, and you could actually see the first two rows of seats in the rear view mirror. Oh well... they won't give me that bus for my route but I'm certainly going to request it when I get trips.

If all your problems are behind you... you must be a school bus driver.
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lovmybus
Active Member

USA
18 Posts

Posted - 09/18/2006 :  3:12:14 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
got my bus back last week also...good as new...a square box attached to the turbo was chaged...has a wire harness going to it,not sure if its the actuator but its running and pick up is good as new....
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BBInt.10
Top Member

USA
1041 Posts

Posted - 09/18/2006 :  5:01:46 PM  Show Profile  Visit BBInt.10's Homepage  Send BBInt.10 an AOL message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by IBTMech

ModMech, I don't want to sound disrespectful. I know that you are right, however, school buses and rescue units DO have times when extended idle periods are necessary, especially in cold weather. Throttling them up during that time is SOP, yet these turbo problems persist.

Telling an EMT that he must not idle his rescue unit at an accident scene and shut it off simply isn't going to work. I have to deal with emergency vehicles on a daily basis and a large part of their uptime is sitting and idling. No way around it. With all those lights on they can't be shut down.

Telling a bus driver that he must shut down his bus for 4 hours during a basketball game in -10F weather with no means to plug in the block heater is a bad scenerio, too.

I don't know what the answer is, but it's a growing problem and it's going to get worse.



I agree. I think it's about time International starts building their products around their customer's needs rather than telling their customers to adapt to their products. It would be one thing if International was the only medium truck company out there... then we'd HAVE to adapt... but there are other companies out there that DO build products to suit their customer's needs. International has been shooting themselves in the foot with their more modern products... I'd love to see where they are in 10 years.

If all your problems are behind you... you must be a school bus driver.
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jeepcjron
Advanced Member

USA
259 Posts

Posted - 09/18/2006 :  5:36:16 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Dave seriously send me the last 8 of the vin. i wont mention it to anyone at your place or the other dealer..just curious whats up so i can help you out.

its like a slinky! useless but fun to watch.
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ModMech
Top Member

USA
948 Posts

Posted - 09/19/2006 :  08:48:10 AM  Show Profile  Visit ModMech's Homepage  Reply with Quote
Dave,

Diesels have NEVER been designed to idle excessively, and it has ALWAYS damaged them to do so. The only real change, is now the people doing the idleing are having the problems, instead of the second or third owners (with washed out cylinders and failed bearings).

There is NO diesel manufacturer that states that it is OK or normal operating conditions to simply idle an engine, and not one suggests that you do (unless it is required for safety/passenger comfort). This has been true for longer than I have been a mechanic (25 years), but people did it anyway because fuel was cheap and few people cared.

If you must idle, run the RPM up to 900-1100 RPM to maintain combustion temps, and greatly reduce the likelyhood of turbo/EGR/engine damage. That has always been the suggested procedure.

If you want customer service, you NEED an International!
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BBInt.10
Top Member

USA
1041 Posts

Posted - 09/19/2006 :  5:31:13 PM  Show Profile  Visit BBInt.10's Homepage  Send BBInt.10 an AOL message  Reply with Quote
Hi Mod,

I think that the problem with my turbo was actually what you stated in your first reply to this thread... from sitting unused all summer. That's what I was getting at in my last post.

Granted I am not the first driver who has had this bus so I don't know how it lived its first 20K miles, but I've been driving it for the past 12K miles and I am very consious of not letting it idle unnecessarily. Even in the winter months when loading in the afternoon at the school I'll turn it off. The only time it idles really is in the winter mornings when it's warming up but the automatic high idle kicks in and brings it up near 1300 RPM.

Thanks for the reply.

If all your problems are behind you... you must be a school bus driver.
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socalkid
New Member

4 Posts

Posted - 11/07/2012 :  11:08:50 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Had a 365 with the same sort of problems today. Low on power, running dirty, throwing codes. Did a test drive, got it to throw codes and it threw these codes,111, 221,343,327. After discussing with a friend of mine we tried different things like putting in a new air filter, checking multiple sensors and their connections that could potentially have an effect, and non of these helped. We finally decided to swap IAT sensors with a sister bus, and sure enough that solved our problems. The bus runs great now. From now on that will be one of the first things I look when a bus comes in with the same problems.

Griffin
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