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JK
Top Member
USA
7307 Posts |
 Posted - 08/29/2001 : 08:12:57 AM
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A school bus might be considered overcrowded and unsafe when students are forced to stand in the aisle or are not otherwise sitting within the seating compartment. Some states (Pennsylvania for one) law enforcement will detain a bus until enough students are removed in order to allow every student to sit within their seating compartment. But 11 states allow students to stand in the bus aisle. Why the drastic difference in student seating standards and enforcement?
In both the above situations, students standing in the aisle or forced to sit part-way into the aisle, it is often claimed that compartmentalization is defeated and the kids are placed at unnecessary risk. Is this true? If, so, then why is overcrowding allowed in some school districts? (jk)
School bus drivers: Are your buses overcrowded?
http://forums.delphi.com/n/mb/message.asp?webtag=2safeschools&msg=1424.1
Note: Nonmembers, click on GUEST at login to partisipate in this poll.
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cowlitzcoach
Advanced Member
USA
325 Posts |
Posted - 08/29/2001 : 08:32:04 AM
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Unless the whole body is within the compartment, the whole compartmentalization concept is not going to work. If the passenger is in the aisle, when the brakes are slammed on they are going to go flying down the aisle.
Overcrowding, except for in the case of an emergency, is not acceptable and should not be allowed.
We as drivers tend to be browbeat by the schools and administration to take that extra kid or kids. After all, it is only just this one time, right? WRONG!
As a driver, we are the only ones in a position to know if it is safe to proceed or not. If we proceed knowing it isn't "really" safe, if something should happen we are going to be out there in the cold all by ourselves.
Mark O.
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thomas86_a
Top Member
USA
4413 Posts |
Posted - 08/29/2001 : 12:31:25 PM
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Standing should not be allowed on any school bus. I don't like to stand on city buses, and they have hand rails to hang on to.
States should not allow it, and even if it is legal in a state, the school district should have enough routes so that they are not overcrowded to the point of standing room only. I as a driver would never drive a bus that had children standing on it except in a rare emergency.
When I say an emergency, I mean like if the school were to have a bomb threat. We have had them before, and had to transportt the kids away from the school to a safe location. Obviously there are a few exceptions, but not many.
86-A It will go in circles around your bus.
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wagonmaster
Top Member
USA
2298 Posts |
Posted - 08/29/2001 : 5:24:20 PM
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No Standing!!! Three to a seat unless they're too big (some high school age kids).
Joe
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debbiethebusdriver
Active Member
USA
11 Posts |
Posted - 08/29/2001 : 6:20:43 PM
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Boy have u picked a topic to discuss.
I have been in a battle with my director about the overcrowding on my bus. I have done some research about the issue and have found that the Federal Goverment does not recommend how many students to load on a bus. They leave that up to the bus manufacturer. The Florida Statutes do not seem to mean anything to our county superintendent. I have done some letter writing and come up with nothing. I am now presently in the process of contacting the Commissioner of Education in the state of Florida. I hope to hear form him soon....... but like all politicions......they only like to talk about the good and not the bad.....they like to shove it under the carpet.
I have always wondered what would happen if all Busdrivers in the United States went on strike on the same day for the same issues for the Future Leaders of America.
Hmmmmmmmmmmmmmm I wonder.
Any help u can give me towards my fight would be appreciated.
tks again
busdriver in Leon County Fla.
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debbiethebusdriver
Active Member
USA
11 Posts |
Posted - 08/29/2001 : 6:26:33 PM
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I neglected to say that i have one of the new 2001 buses and have seatbelts in every seat. I drive for high school and my director has informed me that I have to put three students to a seat.
I have students that can only put a quarter of their rump on the seat, so the occupant protection is thrown out the window, and the seat belts.......what a joke.
How can i ask a student that can only put one quarter of their rump on a seat put on a seat belt, they look at me like i am stupid.
Well I hope to get some replys on this issue to.
Happy Beginning of School to All
Bus Drivers in America.
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BusBoy
Top Member
USA
2042 Posts |
Posted - 08/29/2001 : 6:40:30 PM
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Debbie,
What kind of buses does Leon County have now?
I used to live near Panama City, Florida and I drove a School Bus their too!
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debbiethebusdriver
Active Member
USA
11 Posts |
Posted - 08/29/2001 : 6:43:09 PM
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I have one of the brand new 2001 81 passenger flat nose pushers. I cant recall
the make or modle of it but i will do that tomorrow at 430am when i get up to go do my run. I will respond when i get home.
tks for asking
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debbiethebusdriver
Active Member
USA
11 Posts |
Posted - 08/30/2001 : 08:13:08 AM
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Busboy
I looked this morning and I have one of the new Thomas buses. I will fit 81 students. It has 4 toddler seats built in, and i have three seatbelts to each seat.
I have has several bad dreams about this bus being loaded and something happens and I cant undo all the students. One is the bus is on fire and the other is the plung into the river. I know if this ever happened i could never drive again.
Seatbelts on buses is a joke. How in the world do u fit three highschool students on a seat designed to fit three elementary students on. I have asked my director to answer this question for me.....no answer yet.
As far as i know all buses are buing built with seatbelts included. Please check with your state law makers and find out the responsibilities of the drivers and what u have to make the children do. I found out that in fla. a driver can get a ticket if they are stopped for a non moving violation, and if the officer steps on the bus and sees some of the students not belted he can write the driver a ticket for each student.
I keep hearing that wont happen......well in reality it can and also leagly it can.
Please check in your states and countys on the responsibilities u will have when u do get one of these buses.
Right now im not allowed to drive my bus because the high school students took apart the female end of the seatbelts. DOT told my chief mechanic that the students couldnt take them apart. I showed him how easy it was to take apart......well his mouth hit the floor. I cant drive it right now because of the investigation they are doing, but other drivers can.......hmmmmmmmm leagle stand point........any help, lol.
Well I have to go do my run hope to hear from some of you fellow drivers in my area and state.
Love to hear from all drivers in the united states.
Have a wonderful day Bus Drivers.
Debbie
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thomasvista2012
Top Member
USA
747 Posts |
Posted - 08/30/2001 : 12:38:21 PM
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Debbie,
I can't believe that a driver can be ticket for that? That is ridiculous!
I am a high school student. I DO NOT BELIEVE that school buses should have seat belts. Now, I live in Florida (Miami), and there IS NO WAY I WOULD BE FORCED TO WEAR A SEAT BELT. If the students don't wear them, the driver shouldn't be held liable. I made the choice not to wear them, why should the driver suffer?
The Florida legislature comes up with some laws that are pure crocks!
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Blue Bird 0199
Senior Member
USA
71 Posts |
Posted - 08/30/2001 : 2:39:46 PM
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Gosh yes......! My bus is very overcrowded but not to the point where I have student standing up. It just my high student take all the seats(their only two to a seat). I kind of like it because I never had a bus load of high school kids. They are soooo funny when telling their mama joke LOL!
Dunwoody High you guys are the best high school student I ever drove!
(P.S. It is lawful to have student standing up on a bus. If you have a overlaod you call in overlaod and other bus will be send. If you are driving a bus with student standing up you will be fired.)
Chris |
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B. Busguy33
Top Member
USA
3444 Posts |
Posted - 08/30/2001 : 3:07:00 PM
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quote:
As far as i know all buses are buing built with seatbelts included. Please check with your state law makers and find out the responsibilities of the drivers and what u have to make the children do. I found out that in fla. a driver can get a ticket if they are stopped for a non moving violation, and if the officer steps on the bus and sees some of the students not belted he can write the driver a ticket for each student.
Hi Debby,
Not all brand-new school buses are being manufactured with seatbelts. New school buses will be manufactured with seatbelts only if the state that spec'd the buses out requires them. I don't think my state (MA) requires them yet, but I have seen a few '02 model year full-size (71 passenger) conventionals that have them. So basically, as long as it's ok with the state for people to spec their buses out with seatbelts, some will do it, and some won't...unless it is a state requirement. As I mentioned earlier, here in MA I have seen some new buses with seatbelts and some new buses without them.
I have also seen some full-size (84 passenger) school buses that are equipped with seatbelts for only one or two rows of seats on the bus only, rather than throughout the whole bus.
I am totally against seat belt usage on full-size buses. On handicapped/special needs buses, or smaller buses, then yes I would probably be slightly partial to using them...only if there was an aide on the bus to assist with making sure every passenger on the bus uses their seat belt PROPERLY.
You brought up some excellent points in your most recent post with regards to what you would do if your bus was on fire or if it was submerged under a large body of water. It would be almost impossible for you alone to unbuckle most if not all of the passengers that were on your bus, and then the lawsuits would come in...
As I said, I am totally against the use of seatbelts on full-size buses. There is no way they would work on those buses. Even if there was an aide on one of those buses, I am sure there would be some arising difficulties with using the seatbelts on those buses. They are totally unnecessary...why do you think ALL school buses are compartmentalized to begin with? They are ALL designed with compartmentilization in mind for one reason: safety. Seatbelts would make compartmentilization useless, and compartmentilization would not be fully maximized as it should be...without the use of seatbelts.
Here are some more reasons why I don't like seatbelts on buses:
1. The seatbelts themselves could be used as "weapons" by the passengers on the bus. Injuries and plenty of write-up slips would be a result of these occurences.
2. The passengers on the bus may play with the seatbelts and also break them. (School district mechanics and mechanic's helpers already have to keep up with replacing/repairing seat back covers, seatbelts would just add more time and money to their lists of repairs, and it's one more thing that the school district has to worry about taking care of. The mechanics better have some extra time on their hands to keep up with the repair of the seatbelts...as if repairing seatback covers, as well as many other repairs, wasn't enough for them to keep up with).
3. You cannot possibly fit 3 high schoolers to a seat with seatbelts on a bus. That would not be possible in most situations. As a result of that, the capacity of the bus would then be further reduced--and more buses and drivers would need to be obtained to make up for the reduced school bus passenger capacities...which equals even more money that the school district has to come up with to pay for the added drivers and buses...and seatbelts for those ADDED buses.
Bob
(B. Busguy33)
"Blue Bird: Always flyin' high above the rest... 
Blue Bird: One of America's Best!!!  "
Edited by - B. Busguy33 on 08/30/2001 5:50:07 PM |
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Steven A.Rosenow
Top Member
USA
1926 Posts |
Posted - 08/30/2001 : 6:09:50 PM
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I have not seen overcrowding on our buses where I live, primarily because 95% of the buses in my region are high capacity transit buses.
Bob puts the seatbelt issue right on the nose, but theres more points than that. I have included a link, and a previous post I have made, about the seatbelt issue.
quote:
First off, as far as small type "A" buses and small transits, I can see where safety can be improved with the addition of a 3-point system.
Bus as far as large school buses go - ABSOLUTELY NOT!!!!
It has been proven that with a restraining device in full size school buses, the risk INCREASES with them installed in them.
Think of a small school bus as a car, the weight and the size are roughly the same. Thats why small school buses should have them. A small school bus, when involved in an accident, will experience crash forces equal to that of a car.
A large school bus, like a transit and full size conventionals, experiences them differently. A full size school bus, when hit by a car going 30 mph, will HARDLY feel the impact. Besides, in a full size school bus, the floor is the average height of a compact car's roof. So, with that in mind, the crash forces are sent BELOW the floor, not in direct line of the pupils. I was ONCE going to petition the Shelton School District to have them installed. But when I saw the details and after the research I did, I have since decided that they DO NOT belong in them.
There are also other risks involved with seatbelts. Especially the latches. They could be used as weapons, and that could present a serious problem. Another thing about the latches has also been pointed out in this topic. In a school bus accident, precious seconds of life are wasted as one tries to undo the latch in the attempt to exit the bus. Without seatbelts, exit is ensured to be speedy, and safer. Besides, bus drivers aren't paid to be babysitters, and to see if EVERY student is wearing them, would be ridiculous. Its also not something I am willing to do EVEN IF I got hired as a bus driver.
In rollover accidents there is the increased risk of letting the latch go, and the student falling out of the seat, and onto and injuring himself, or another student. Do we really need another injury already? No, we do not. Besides, school bus rollovers are EXTREMELY rare. In fact, the percentage of school bus rollovers as compared to other types of vehicle accidents - let alone other types of school bus accidents makes it nearly a non-event. Statistically, the safest form or road transportation already is the school bus, and the addition of a seatbelt would jeopardize that safety level.
Recently, they have tried introducing other types of restraints, like the Safe-T-Bar device. I see a MAJOR problem with this. There are too many risks associated with this device, like getting trapped if the release mechanism fails, and the risk of the smaller passengers hitting their head on one in the event of a rear end collision. This is way too much of a risk to accept. Do we really want them as well? I wouldn't. And the sheer cost of such a device for a bus would surely raise the price of a bus another $5K.
Both the NHTSA and the NTSB have BOTH issued statements that point out that seatbelts DO NOT belong in them. For a full report from the NHTSA, see the link below. It was issued in 1999, after a group along with the NHTSA concluded, after MANY of years of study, that they do not belong in them.
Heres the link.
http://www.nhtsa.dot.gov/people/injury/buses/pub/seatbelt.hmp.html
This changed my outlook on seatbelts in full size buses. I was once gonna pursue the Shelton School District to have them installed in their 90 passenger transits, but having seen this link, I changed my mind.
"Preserving America's best - THE GILLIG! - THE BEST NEVER REST" http://www.geocities.com/gilligcoaches/ |
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BigDog-4
Active Member
USA
37 Posts |
Posted - 08/30/2001 : 10:17:25 PM
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Yes I'm 100 per cent with all of you on seatbelts not only trying to fit kids in seats and eveything eles. How's this, kids useing them a weapons beating each other. won't that be something eles to take care of while your driveing down the road. Hey B.Busguy33 Blue Bird alway's flying hig above the restyou haven't had a CROWN 
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Bus Boy 39
Top Member
USA
1315 Posts |
Posted - 08/31/2001 : 05:47:38 AM
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The weapon thing is very true. My younger brother rides a 36 passenger Thomas and it has seat belts. And he's always coming home with marks on his face from the seat belts. And we ask him what happened and he says "We were hitting each other over the head with the seat belts." That goes to show you that they won't wear them, but use them for "fun."
"Blue Birds Rule!" |
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debbiethebusdriver
Active Member
USA
11 Posts |
Posted - 08/31/2001 : 08:23:14 AM
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Thans everyone for your comments, but Florida has already passed a law for all new buses (after Dec 31, 2000) be equiped with seatbelts. Its the law now (FS 316.6145).
There is nothing we can do about it now in Florida. I am so scared to drive my new bus, i keep making up excuses not to drive it. I have come to the point of being written up if i refuse to drive it again.
I have been driving in Leon County for 12 yrs this october. This is the first year that i have been so scared to drive and now am complitating quitting.
There are alot of other drivers in our county with the same feelings that i have. We are tired of the adminstration putting us in positions that can be financialy or physicaly devistating.
Right now they have put me in an old 87 bluebird transit because i refused my new one again. I have had this bus for a week now.
I have written this bus up for 4 yrs about the bad seat. The bottom seat is so old that the right side is broken down. It causes my right knee and hip to be in severe pain. I keep telling them that the seat needs to be replaced and they laugh at me. These old buses are now on routes. Several other drivers that have these buses are complaining about them now.
The company that made the break system no longer exists. So we have to make do with parts from other buses to keep them working. I have driven this bus for a week since i refused to drive my new bus. When i start dropping off my kids the breaks smell like a new break job, and by the time i get done the smell is so bad i can hardly breath. I have told them about it and they say the bus had a new break job the week before. I have been in a newly serviced bus and the breaks smell some but not like this. Now they have to find me another bus while they look at this one.
Im almost at the point of quitting. I dont know where to turn or who to talk to about this. I have gone to everyone, even the superintendent, and he has said to go the director. I have and have had no help anywhere.
well i will keep everyone posted about my delima.
tks again for all the suggestions and comments.
Debbie
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BusladyofSoCal
Advanced Member
USA
366 Posts |
Posted - 09/01/2001 : 12:05:32 PM
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quote:
A school bus might be considered overcrowded and unsafe when students are forced to stand in the aisle or are not otherwise sitting within the seating compartment. Some states (Pennsylvania for one) law enforcement will detain a bus until enough students are removed in order to allow every student to sit within their seating compartment. But 11 states allow students to stand in the bus aisle. Why the drastic difference in student seating standards and enforcement?
In both the above situations, students standing in the aisle or forced to sit part-way into the aisle, it is often claimed that compartmentalization is defeated and the kids are placed at unnecessary risk. Is this true? If, so, then why is overcrowding allowed in some school districts? (jk)
School bus drivers: Are your buses overcrowded?
http://forums.delphi.com/n/mb/message.asp?webtag=2safeschools&msg=1424.1
Note: Nonmembers, click on GUEST at login to partisipate in this poll.
Only the littlest kids should be ok to do 3 per seat, olders kid's behind's are too big they end up in the aisle!
I did a 60psgr run in a 90pack tandem Crown. It was CROWDED.
JrHigh too...ugh.
drove me crazy...
it was cramped and hot so the kids were crabby and rude to me...
wait..
they were rude anyhoo..
hehe
California says you cannot carry more than the 292 says the bus can carry. You can't shove 90 kids on the 72 pack. You will loose the license.
I personally won't stuff 84 high school guys in my bus...it's physically impossible.
Buslady
Long Live Crown Coach Corp! Detroit Diesel rules!
Edited by - busladyofsocal on 09/01/2001 12:09:46 PM |
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Carpenter Bus_19
Advanced Member
USA
286 Posts |
Posted - 09/02/2001 : 6:49:33 PM
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In our district we have a slight problem with overcrowding They have the same amount of buses as last year BUT... There are 1,000 more students going to the high school. needless to say all the buses that are able to run are Even some spares are on regular routes now. and there still isnt enough buses
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debbiethebusdriver
Active Member
USA
11 Posts |
Posted - 09/02/2001 : 8:36:12 PM
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well i think i got some good news concerning my letter writing and my emails. I emaild the commissioner of educationa and got the formula on how many kids they put on the bus, and it states the same as the florida laws. Now our superintendent has to make it right with our transportation department.
love that word compartmentalzaion. lol
I also found out that the director of transportation and the superintendent and the assistant super are having a meeting tuesday concerning some of the problems between the two formulas.
hurray maybe we can get some relief on the over crowding on the busses.
tks again for all the comments.
i will keep u informed.
debbie
p.s. oh i know the law enforcement wont give us a ticket for the kids not buckled in. im wanting the goverment to know what kinda position they have put bus drivers in. from the legal stand point.
remember we do have to follow all the laws.
state and goverment.
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Bert
New Member
1 Posts |
Posted - 09/10/2001 : 7:29:31 PM
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I have 2 kids that ride the bus. 2nd and 4th grade. I volentered to help the kindergarten kids get on the right bus, and that is how I found that there were to many kids on the bus. 3 in all sets and 4 in 2 or 3 sets. The 4th grad is last to get on the bus, and my son being big at 113lbs 5'needs a seat. I have talked to the driver, I talked to the Princple, she said we are working on it. Mean while I have been picking up my kids. Other parents hear there kids complain that the bus is loud and crowded, but nothing has changed.
As a perant I will do what I can. Provide transportion for my kids. but what about the other kids?
Who do I contact? It seems there is no one to call?
Thank you for this site.
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B. Busguy33
Top Member
USA
3444 Posts |
Posted - 09/11/2001 : 10:58:24 AM
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quote:
I have 2 kids that ride the bus. 2nd and 4th grade. I volentered to help the kindergarten kids get on the right bus, and that is how I found that there were to many kids on the bus. 3 in all sets and 4 in 2 or 3 sets. The 4th grad is last to get on the bus, and my son being big at 113lbs 5'needs a seat. I have talked to the driver, I talked to the Princple, she said we are working on it. Mean while I have been picking up my kids. Other parents hear there kids complain that the bus is loud and crowded, but nothing has changed.
As a perant I will do what I can. Provide transportion for my kids. but what about the other kids?
Who do I contact? It seems there is no one to call?
Thank you for this site.
Is the transporation department aware of this? Or is the bus company that provides transportation to the school aware of this situation? 
Bob
(B. Busguy33)
"Blue Bird: Always flyin' high above the rest...
Blue Bird: One of America's Best!!! " |
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Blake913
Senior Member
USA
195 Posts |
Posted - 09/15/2001 : 2:05:28 PM
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I have a 89 passenger bus. My loads are: Elem = 97, M&H = 78. My elem students don't usually complain, but my M&H students do. I just say "We're all family on this bus, now scoot your boot and hold on, but try not to stand!" Other buses complain of being overcrowded too. We had one bus who was stopped on the side of the Interstate trying to get the students to behave and a Sheriff's Deputy pulled up behind her. The deputy got on the bus radio and informed the Director that the bus would NOT move until he got a bus to come and help her. Now that time, something got done. It's bad when a Deputy pulls behind a school bus and says the bus is overcrowded and then calls the Director.
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Topic |
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Is your bus overcrowded?
