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bus917
Senior Member
United States
77 Posts |
 Posted - 02/05/2007 : 1:36:47 PM
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| it has been very cold here over the weekend and today -2 with wind chill of -20 plus. this morning we could not get buses up and running so we had to call school (we were going to go)I just got a phone call informing me that my bus is to idle all day all night I'am just wondering if this is safe to do? my bus fired up first try this morning no problems at all I did idle for awhile during the day and last night i idled for a half hour from 9:30 pm to 10:00. I told office i didn't think I needed to do this but i was informed to just do it. I don't think it is safe to leave unattended with it running(Ilov my bus but not enough to sleep in it) will this harm my bus at all in the long or short run of it all thanks |
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LBDboater
Advanced Member
USA
279 Posts |
Posted - 02/05/2007 : 4:26:57 PM
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| I think that is the dumbest idea I've ever heard. Hope I don't offend anyone. It's a waste of fuel, bad on the engine if the engine can't maintain optimum temperature and burn all the fuel, bad emission releases. It's not a good idea. Why not require all the bus drivers to attend to their bus an hour early so that it gives them time to make any corrections for road men to get to the buses that don't start. It'd be a lot cheaper. Also, why not invest in good block heaters and electricity if you live in a place that has cold to FREEZING winters? What state are you in? |
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CPCSC_TD
Top Member
USA
657 Posts |
Posted - 02/05/2007 : 5:23:51 PM
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We had negative 5 temps this morning. We only had 1 not start and we have block heaters with plugs.
Neighboring districts were not as lucky. Even with plugs and such, when they don't want to give, they aren't going to give.
Back in Detroit, it was not uncommon to leave them running at night off idle. Most waiste management firms left garbage trucks running all night long. Burned very little fuel and if the bus was properly spec'd with fuel purifiers (not filters, purifiers) your emmissions were cut as well as exhaust.
Of course one could build a garage for buses to park indoors but think about your insurance rates and liability. Would be nice though. |
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bbird66
Top Member
USA
881 Posts |
Posted - 02/06/2007 : 05:35:34 AM
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I have the drivers get them up and running an hr or more before rts on sub zero days, Now on a weekend trip or night basketball and the temps are below 5 I require them to stay running! set the idle at 1000 or around 1100 and leave em run! I dont care about emissions ect. I'll take a running bus over one that doesnt want to start when they are 60 miles away any day! I just had one last Sat. with -2 and a 15mph wind run for 12hrs, not counting road time. Burned 10 gallons.
LBD, I Dont think you have experianced -20 degrees with 10mph wind have you? |
Were gonna miss you "Brent"..Good luck in "Heidi land"
"I know you miss the Wainwrights Bobby, but they were weak and stupid people...and that's why we have wolves and other large predators" .. The Far Side
"On a two hour delay when will my child be picked up??"
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Edited by - bbird66 on 02/06/2007 05:37:37 AM |
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drivin4safety
Advanced Member
United States
259 Posts |
Posted - 02/06/2007 : 4:06:09 PM
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We had a case last winter where we had several buses that did not fire up in the afternoon, I'm not sure how it all was handled, but the kids that were not immediately able to be taken home were kept inside the schools until buses or parents were able to take them home. That was due to a sudden cold snap, coupled with fuel issues. (The fuel that was put into the ground tank just before the cold snap was winterized but not enough had made it's way into the bus tanks to prevent the gelling at the filters.) We weren't the only trans dept with problems though, many of our neighboring districts had the same problem. There was a run on fuel filters that afternoon, after we were all done I don't think there were more than a handfull left anywhere in Cedar Rapids. I know a few things have changed since we went from 60 degree highs to single digits in about a week this winter without problems. This past weekend though with highs only getting to about 0 those of us on athletic or music trips were told leave 'em run, the fuel is cheaper than a service call.
Mike |
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LBDboater
Advanced Member
USA
279 Posts |
Posted - 02/06/2007 : 4:48:51 PM
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| No, can't say I've had it that cold here. It was 3 here this morning with 20 MPH winds. We didn't have to many issues. A couple of the buses we decommissioned because they had problems with pumping up air brakes. We had a couple dead batteries (which is uncommon, we have a good battery exchange program for maintenance). Nothing major. Maybe these places should consider investing even more money into diesel fired coolant heaters and good block heaters. But, if thats not possible, or this is a freak thing, than I don't see any problems running the buses all night every once in a while. |
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Dravo
Senior Member
USA
93 Posts |
Posted - 02/06/2007 : 6:30:25 PM
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| Big rigs and coaches often replace their fuel filters with a Davco Fuel Pro 380. It's a filter, water seperator and a 12 volt fuel heater. It's other features are you can see when the filter needs changing and you can drain the water with out loosing prime. I just saw one at Freightline for $300. |
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Salaskie
Advanced Member
USA
453 Posts |
Posted - 02/06/2007 : 11:14:57 PM
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We also leave our buses running all night, and sometimes all day, if the temperature is below 0. Leaving children stranded at bus stops is more dangerous than leaving the bus running. A diesel engine can take it. They are checked in the evening, and then again during the night to make sure they are still running. Gelled fuel will still stop an engine idling at 1200 rpms.
And yes, we have a fuel conservation policy, but our students are the top priority. |
Edited by - Salaskie on 02/06/2007 11:16:01 PM |
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flyboy
Senior Member
USA
147 Posts |
Posted - 02/07/2007 : 10:08:56 AM
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| We had a really mild early winter here in Pa but the cold hit with a vengeance in early Feb. Still all in all we had great sucess with getting our fleet running with temps in the 0to+10degF range. We try to plug em all in but some buses have no access to electric for the block heaters.Sure a diesel can handle extended periods of idling but it will eventually kill the engine.1 hour of slow idle will place the equivalent of 50 hours of normal wear on the engine.If you gotta let em run keep the idle speed up to 1000-1200 rpms.Just for laughs hang a Pro-Link on your engine and check how many hours are logged you will be suprised at how many hours an engine with 80,000 miles has on it. |
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torque
Advanced Member
Canada
358 Posts |
Posted - 02/07/2007 : 12:02:31 PM
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Ya, it's not the best thing for a diesel to idle, a bit better on it if you raise the idle. I am not sure how the myth ever started it was ok to idle a diesel, but it never was good for them. Any engine is designed to work, not idle. Added load is required to seat the rings properly, to prevent oil dilution with unburned fuel that also results from idling..
You will notice newer electronic engines automatically raise the idle after a while to help prevent damage to the engine. Or is that programing an option they only add to vehicles sold in colder climates? All ours do.
The driver and the children should be dressed for the weather, who knows what will happen and when, a break down, slide off the road, the bus late.....
It might be cheaper to add fuel conditioner to prevent the fuel from gelling, switch to a lighter engine oil for easier start.
If it only a couple days a year leaving them idle (raised) might be your best option, but if it is a week or two or a month or two like here, it could be costly in more ways than one to idle.
The children are our top priority also, we have spare busses, not that a no start happens very often, we are prepared to get another bus to a driver in the event. Most of the time when our busses are late, it is because of road conditions, snow, icy road ect. |
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bus917
Senior Member
United States
77 Posts |
Posted - 02/07/2007 : 3:21:47 PM
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| thanks well they have had the whole fleet idling day and night since mon to today tonight they will again idle. and the buses that have covers for the front still are not on them don't know why? at night i have been covering my front this seems to help and i have not been idling all night.I have been going out and idling for two hours before I go to bed and I'am plugged in (I hate to see my electic bill this month with me plugging in and my husbands semi) and I fire up just fine. |
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IBTMech
Top Member
USA
973 Posts |
Posted - 02/07/2007 : 3:54:08 PM
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When daytime highs hover in the single numbers we bypass the timer and plug our buses in after their runs. If they can't plug in, they must be started and run at least ten minutes of each hour. If that's impractical, we leave them running at 1200 RPM.
If the nights are below zero, we leave the block heaters on all night. |
If it doesn't fit, FORCE it.
If it breaks, well, it needed replacing anyway.
Pullin' wrenches for 45 years. |
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B. Busguy33
Top Member
USA
3444 Posts |
Posted - 02/07/2007 : 4:34:42 PM
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quote:
You will notice newer electronic engines automatically raise the idle after a while to help prevent damage to the engine. Or is that programing an option they only add to vehicles sold in colder climates? All ours do.
All of the International engines in our fleet (T444E and VT365) have this feature. I believe it's a standard feature on the International electronic diesel engines.
I have noticed that some engines automatically raise the RPMs sooner than others during the same type of weather, when the buses are started at the same time. |
Edited by - B. Busguy33 on 02/07/2007 5:36:53 PM |
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78fordwayne
Top Member
USA
2868 Posts |
Posted - 02/07/2007 : 5:52:09 PM
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| Ya thats a nice feature. All the T444E and VT365s have that even in the Ford pickups. There is also a valve that closes in back of the turbo that helps increase exhaust pressure which makes the engine work harder to warm up faster. This also makes a loud hissing kind of sound. |
Robert B.
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80-RE4
Top Member
USA
5700 Posts |
Posted - 02/07/2007 : 5:56:45 PM
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| When our fleet at Laidlaw was 90 percent 1996 AmTran RE buses, when it got really cold, we'd keep the buses on all night. We would not shut them down and they would stay on from about 4 pm to 6 am until the buses left for the AM routes. A few drivers would stay at the bus yard and take turns inside sleeping and then go check on the buses. |
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Brad Barker
Administrator
USA
874 Posts |
Posted - 02/08/2007 : 11:25:44 AM
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This has been an interesting topic. Thank you for all the input. I feel we basically do what we have to do to keep 'em going. For those of you that do idle for extended times you might want to consider sampling the oil in the engines at one half the oil change interval and at oil change. I think what you will discover will be enlightening to you. I also need to ask you how many engine overhauls you perform. Just curious!
Brad |
Brad A. Barker |
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misterbill
Advanced Member
United States
306 Posts |
Posted - 02/08/2007 : 1:40:21 PM
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The mechanic at our yard has been plugging in the busses every night, coming in at 4:45 AM to start the busses.
He told me they have additives in the fuel, and the fuel is cut with kerosene. It has been in the single digits or below zero for two weeks.
I used to drive a truck, I changed the fuel filters OUTSIDE when it was 8 below. From then on, I left the truck idleing all weekend(fast idle). Not real sure if that was necessary, truck drivers used to tell me you only burn a couple of gallons running a diesel all night. Diesel fuel circulates through the motor(excess fuel goes back to the tank), keeping the fuel warm. |
High School Friend-"Hey! How are you! Well, I guess you can't be doing too well, you're driving a school bus." |
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IC
Top Member
USA
3413 Posts |
Posted - 02/11/2007 : 10:34:08 AM
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| Are there any pros or cons to letting a bus idle in gear (auto tranny, of course) for extended periods? It seems like it would add a bit of a load to the motor. |
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Thomasbus24
Administrator
USA
4547 Posts |
Posted - 02/11/2007 : 11:31:02 AM
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NO, NO, NO, NO, NO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
NEVER leave a bus in gear like that. Yes, it would heat up faster and it will destroy the transmission. Not to mention that the bus could overcome it's parking brake and run over somebody. |
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bluebirdvision
Top Member
USA
1081 Posts |
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Kodie
Top Member
United States
2028 Posts |
Posted - 02/27/2007 : 2:55:10 PM
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| Here in Buffalo 3 weeks ago it was -25 with the wind chill. All of the buses started up just fine. When the office staff arrives at 5 am they turn on all of the highschool buses and let them run for about an hour. We have 1998 BB FE's, 2003-2008 IC RE's, 9 2007 IC CE's and some corbeil gmc,chevy, and ford handy buses. As far as I know none of them have block heaters except for the CE's and 2 08' IC RE's. Why is it that our buses start when nobody elses did? |
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misterbill
Advanced Member
United States
306 Posts |
Posted - 02/27/2007 : 5:18:29 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by IC Dave
Here in Buffalo 3 weeks ago it was -25 with the wind chill. All of the buses started up just fine. When the office staff arrives at 5 am they turn on all of the highschool buses and let them run for about an hour. We have 1998 BB FE's, 2003-2008 IC RE's, 9 2007 IC CE's and some corbeil gmc,chevy, and ford handy buses. As far as I know none of them have block heaters except for the CE's and 2 08' IC RE's. Why is it that our buses start when nobody elses did?
I am anxiously awaiting the answers to this question. I have an 89 super duty dumptruck with a 7.3 International diesel, I have to plug it in whenever it is below 30°.
Actually-someone told me a simple solution to my starting problem-I just need a motor. LOL
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High School Friend-"Hey! How are you! Well, I guess you can't be doing too well, you're driving a school bus." |
Edited by - misterbill on 02/27/2007 5:20:01 PM |
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IBTMech
Top Member
USA
973 Posts |
Posted - 02/27/2007 : 5:59:49 PM
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Glow plugs, manifold preheaters or ether.
If you have a 7.3 that won't start below 30 F, your glowplugs aren't working. |
If it doesn't fit, FORCE it.
If it breaks, well, it needed replacing anyway.
Pullin' wrenches for 45 years. |
Edited by - IBTMech on 02/27/2007 6:02:04 PM |
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drivin4safety
Advanced Member
United States
259 Posts |
Posted - 02/28/2007 : 12:02:36 PM
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I agree with IBTMech on the Ford 7.3L. At my other job we have four Ford trucks with the 6.0L and one "spare" with the 7.3L, we can leave the spare out in any weather up to 20 below and she'll start with no problems even if the last driver forgot to plug in the block heater. Now the 6.0L's,.......those spoiled little brat pos's have got to be parked in a warm shop to get them fired up, the block heaters help, but unless they are inside, bring your breakfast so you can go back to the office and set a while. (Ford 6.0L - see International VT365)
Mike |
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bluebirdvision
Top Member
USA
1081 Posts |
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misterbill
Advanced Member
United States
306 Posts |
Posted - 02/28/2007 : 6:35:31 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by IBTMech
Glow plugs, manifold preheaters or ether.
If you have a 7.3 that won't start below 30 F, your glowplugs aren't working.
quote:
Originally posted by drivin4safety
I agree with IBTMech on the Ford 7.3L. At my other job we have four Ford trucks with the 6.0L and one "spare" with the 7.3L, we can leave the spare out in any weather up to 20 below and she'll start with no problems even if the last driver forgot to plug in the block heater. Mike
Thank you-the previous owner had the glowplugs tested(positive test light to ground)and said they were working. I have had many people tell me to replace them anyway. For some reason, I have developed an inordinate fear of working on motors. I came close to getting sick when I changed the injector seals. I think I know you are right.
Don’t forget IC Dave’s question!
Some kids unplugged all of our busses-some of them barely started.
quote:
Originally posted by IC Dave
Here in Buffalo 3 weeks ago it was -25 with the wind chill. All of the buses started up just fine. When the office staff arrives at 5 am they turn on all of the highschool buses and let them run for about an hour. We have 1998 BB FE's, 2003-2008 IC RE's, 9 2007 IC CE's and some corbeil gmc,chevy, and ford handy buses. As far as I know none of them have block heaters except for the CE's and 2 08' IC RE's. Why is it that our buses start when nobody elses did?
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High School Friend-"Hey! How are you! Well, I guess you can't be doing too well, you're driving a school bus." |
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drivin4safety
Advanced Member
United States
259 Posts |
Posted - 02/28/2007 : 7:33:44 PM
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You're right I did get away from the original topic, sorry. My best guess to why some started why others didn't is probably related to the skill of a top notch maintenance dept. A good mechanic can do wonders, if not perform as a "miracle worker."
Mike |
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bbird66
Top Member
USA
881 Posts |
Posted - 03/01/2007 : 07:22:16 AM
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| Have fun on changing those glow plugs be damn careful not to break one off or you will be use bad words and lots of them!. You may want to hit them with some penetrating oil first a couple of times before you try. |
Were gonna miss you "Brent"..Good luck in "Heidi land"
"I know you miss the Wainwrights Bobby, but they were weak and stupid people...and that's why we have wolves and other large predators" .. The Far Side
"On a two hour delay when will my child be picked up??"
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misterbill
Advanced Member
United States
306 Posts |
Posted - 03/08/2007 : 08:33:47 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by bbird66
Have fun on changing those glow plugs be damn careful not to break one off or you will be use bad words and lots of them!. You may want to hit them with some penetrating oil first a couple of times before you try.
Giving it some thought, I don't think I would use bad words. I might if I dropped my wrench, usually by the third time I have to crawl out of the engine compartment and crawl under the truck, I might swear(might not too). Breaking off a glow plug would be in the 'I'm unable to speak' catergory.
I think I have figured out why I don't like working on this truck anymore. I spent a year restoring it, three months getting paper work to get it registered, drove it for three weeks, and had to pull the motor(I found the oil leak I couldn't find-someone put bondo on the oil pan[lost 10 quarts of fresh oil]). |
High School Friend-"Hey! How are you! Well, I guess you can't be doing too well, you're driving a school bus." |
Edited by - misterbill on 03/08/2007 08:36:01 AM |
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98tc2000
Senior Member
USA
97 Posts |
Posted - 11/01/2008 : 7:04:05 PM
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| We have 19 buses and are garage can hold about 15 buses because when it hit the single digits they park two spares in there and 12 regular route buses in the garage and leave the heat on all night and all the driver do is they pump the brakes and they pull out of the garage and then do the pretrip. |
Bus 20 A 1998 Blue Bird TC2000
  
Bus 35 A 1999/2000 Blue Bird TC1000
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NathanW
Advanced Member
United States
313 Posts |
Posted - 11/02/2008 : 06:43:32 AM
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| You can park that many buses INSIDE the garage??? Dang, We can get two full size buses and one short bus and that's it. and even then it's very very crowded Generally, we just plug our buses in and leave it at that. If the temp is below zero the maintenance people MAY start the buses early for you, but don't bet on it. |
Nathan--Driver Extraordinaire |
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Peter
Top Member
USA
1057 Posts |
Posted - 11/02/2008 : 08:52:22 AM
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| We can get a bunch of buses in our barn. 25 full size conventionals and 12 type A vans fit in the main parking area, 3 more vans in the washbay, three full size and one van in the shop. Of course that's less than 1/4 of the fleet. There are some bus terminals around here that have much bigger buildings than we do. |
Spicer is nicer. |
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turbine
Active Member
United States
49 Posts |
Posted - 11/04/2008 : 11:36:43 AM
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Wow idle the bus all night long. That sounds like a lot of unnecessary wear on the engine and accesories.Not to mention if the engines have Diesel Exhaust Particulate Filters DPF.. Lots of engine hours without the drive miles. I suppose that you would need to keep track of the engine hours to stay up with the correct oil change interval.
Also the fuel wasted.
Our engine idle time is limited to "5" minutes unless you have children on the bus or transport special needs or are instructed otherwise by the police or other emergency services offical.
We have 75 diesel busses the temps havent drifted down to low yet but it has made it to the single digits in the past here.
Glow plug checks Good batteries Plug them in it works here 
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04IC#14
Senior Member
United States
51 Posts |
Posted - 11/27/2008 : 06:23:50 AM
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| The coldest we've had in MN so far is about 5. Last year they were predicting a really cold Monday morning. The TD and mechanic came out to my house Sunday afternoon and we got the bus started and let it run for a bit. As soon as we shut it down we plugged in the block heater and before I went to bed hooked a battery charger up and set it on low. Next morning was -30 and the thing took right off. We had talked about idling it all night but opted for this idea instead, and it worked. Saved on the fuel too!! |
Brandon
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idling buses all day and night
