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dsalinas1939
Top Member
USA
1326 Posts |
 Posted - 04/02/2018 : 05:07:38 AM
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| ok i have this 06 ic with dt466 egr there are no codes when its cold it has a very long extended crank before it starts ones its warm it starts better but still kinda long crank. now the icp while koeo its sitting at 14psi which i no should be zero while cranking it builds but takes a while the engine oil pressure while crankin builds up rather quickly to 25 psi 30 psi then it starts and its at bout 60psi also once its running i let it run for a bit then shut it down and it doesnt shut right off it runs on for a few seconds ???? |
Edited by - dsalinas1939 on 04/02/2018 05:12:46 AM
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bfaulkner
Senior Member
168 Posts |
Posted - 04/02/2018 : 06:38:53 AM
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| Do you have any softwear to see the pressure numbers? I would want to check the ICP while cranking. I have a bus that is basically the same and never have found the problem. Common issues are fuel pressure regulator, IPR, Intake heater, Hpop. Thats all i can think of off the top of my head. |
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Fastback
Top Member
1500 Posts |
Posted - 04/02/2018 : 08:03:31 AM
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| Don't know how many of these you have but there was a service bulletin at one time on the DT466 egr engines that described how the how they didn't cold start like the prior engines. The bulletin mentioned longer cranking times and stressed importance of cranking speed, proper oil viscosity, oil pan/block heaters and gave an ambient temperature chart for when heaters, 10w-30 or 5w-40 oil was needed etc. |
Why yes, the ORIGinal CHARGER is a Fastback |
Edited by - Fastback on 04/02/2018 08:06:36 AM |
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dsalinas1939
Top Member
USA
1326 Posts |
Posted - 04/02/2018 : 08:06:23 AM
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| yes the with key on the icp is at 14 when i start cranking it slowly goes up to 400 500 psi then starts oil pressure slowlygoes up to about 25 300 then it fired up and goes to 60 |
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namao
Senior Member
Canada
89 Posts |
Posted - 04/02/2018 : 09:27:21 AM
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Hello sounds like your leaning to engine slow to build the 500 psi hpop pressure needed to start, which it sounds like. Here is a copy of a response I have done in past in regards to using a port power on these engines to verifie no leaks under v/c. Its a pass or no pass test basically. The response was for a no start but works or your issue as well. To get set up one porta power and getting hose made up from hydraulic shop. No guess work, it eliminates any leak issues under v/c. Here is the link I posted couple years ago.
Hello, first thing I would do is unplug icp and try to start, it should go to a default duty cycle on the ipr and start if there is no mechanical problems. If it does not start either no oil to hpop pump, hpop pump is bad, ipr is bad or there is a leak under the v/c. Next thing we would do same as said before by one member is, we have a porta power set up to test under v/c systems for holding pressure [for 7.3/6.0 and 466] works really slick just hook up to head connection and it should give you 1500 to 2000 psi within a couple pumps and hold above 500 for a extended period of time. Under the valve cover as well as the pucks you could have a injector leaking, pull v/c cover and crank if there is a leak should be able to visialy see. This is where the porta power helps it either holds or it doesn't. If there is no leaks and you have a good supply of oil from engine it needs a hpop pump. We did one on a truck couple weeks ago and hot no start and it was the pump could go either way though. good luck. |
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dsalinas1939
Top Member
USA
1326 Posts |
Posted - 04/02/2018 : 12:05:50 PM
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| this bus has had this long crank for a while been so busy i never got a chance to look at it and driver never complains buttoday i have some time but u dont think the 14psi reading on the icp with key on is a problem |
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dsalinas1939
Top Member
USA
1326 Posts |
Posted - 04/02/2018 : 12:08:21 PM
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| when u guys are using the porta power are u pumping hydraulic fluid in the system??? |
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namao
Senior Member
Canada
89 Posts |
Posted - 04/02/2018 : 1:47:27 PM
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Hello I have one dedicated to this, its just a cheap porta power we bought from local store with a gauge mounted on it. We have engine oil 15w40 in it. Took hose off pump to head and had a hydraulic shop make up a short hose that connects to the hose on the prota power then to head fitting.
We actually use to make up hydraulic hoses so I have a few made up for the 6.0 and 7.3 as well but don't see them that much. If its working right it should pressure up in a couple stroke 1500 -2000 easily and hold over 500 psi no problem. If it does not there is something leaking under that valve cover. We had a 466 at Christmas with a hard start related to hpop pressure , it would pump up but took a bit, then it would just bleed off to 0 psi. We resealed everything under v/c and all good know. Here is a link to the pump we have nothing fancy.
https://www.princessauto.com/en/detail/4-ton-hydraulic-porta-power-hand-pump/A-p1220987e |
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td083
Senior Member
195 Posts |
Posted - 04/03/2018 : 02:37:52 AM
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IMO and from what I have seen on these if its a hard start when cold only !! not likely a high pressure leak usually will be worse when the oil is hot ..if it runs gets hot and you shut off wait a few mintutes and it cranks right up I wouldn't suggest a high pressure leak , its almost always the other way --starts fine cold but not once its hot and shut off ---
I know you said the oil pressure builds ok but
-We have had some base oil pumps wear out on these once cold its not primed at all and a worn one will take a while or not at all to start once sitting overnight.
--yes i would check the **intake heater as well **
--Only other thing i have seen on these is check to make sure the fuel is not draining back into tank , open the filter once its been sitting overnight and see , though i see this on the maxxforce just may be worth a check .
--and the 14 psi while off is normal reading use to see that all the time thinking its not right too , but its common |
Edited by - td083 on 04/03/2018 02:41:26 AM |
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Fastback
Top Member
1500 Posts |
Posted - 04/03/2018 : 07:07:01 AM
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Service bulletin I was looking for dealing with cold starting DT466 EGR engines is
TSI–04–12–30
Date: November, 2004
Subject File: ENGINE
Subject: Cold Weather Startability Guidelines for 2004 Emission DT 466 Engines
Highlights;
NOTE – During cranking do not disengage the starter until the engine has reached 500 RPM.
15W-40 not recommended below 30F |
Why yes, the ORIGinal CHARGER is a Fastback |
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dsalinas1939
Top Member
USA
1326 Posts |
Posted - 04/03/2018 : 10:50:19 AM
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| ok i will double check my oil pressure and also to see if fuel drains back i did a test on intake heater the circuit is workin fine not sure if the heater itself is coming on |
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namao
Senior Member
Canada
89 Posts |
Posted - 04/04/2018 : 07:16:53 AM
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| I was going to reply once more as far as the porta power, I would use it if I suspected a hpop pressure issue and would of verified that was my issue first [not able to reach .8/500 psi hpop pressure]. As far as a hard start no start I would go at it like this. I would check battery's first, have to have over 130 rpm [that's the spec] and nothing less than 10 volts cranking. I would install fuel gauge probly check top of fuel filter to make sure its full [low have drain back issue possible]. Next scanner on I would do a buzz test , all injectors should sound the same, if one or two are muffled would have to address that. Next with scanner need 130 rpm min, 10 volts min, ipc .8/500 psi min to start, anything lower and it needs to be addressed. The ipc pressure I would say should hit actually 1,000 pretty quickly with any amount of cranking and if it does than I would be looking at fuel, injectors , cranking. If filter housing was low I would probly pump up low side fuel system, bleed air ut and then do a cold start, if that was my issue I should have a good start then work on that side of the system. What ever is out is where I would head. I did have one that we chased out tail for a while, had good ipc, cranking, voltage , changed pretty well all fuel system because we found if we pumped primer up it would start. in the end it was a bad injector pushing air back into the fuel system. Once it started would miss on back cylinders than clear out after about minute of running. On the no start/hard start ih form it says to test intake heater if below 20f/-7c. Good luck. I usually say fix what know is wrong then retest and reassess. May be more than one failure. |
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kummins
Active Member
41 Posts |
Posted - 04/04/2018 : 08:08:25 AM
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i had this one stubborn dt466 w/rail under the cover, that long cranked cold, lot's of head scratching, finally one day it wouldn't start at all, no oil pressure, did all the normal checks & balances, even dropped the pan thinking the pick up tube was cracked, basically grasping at straws...
turned out to be a couple bolts backed out on the oil pump housing, no leaks, but it was suckin air.
i ended up replacing the pump anyway, after that it's been firing up instantly, that was 6 years ago and it's still lighting up instantly. |
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dsalinas1939
Top Member
USA
1326 Posts |
Posted - 04/04/2018 : 09:31:41 AM
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| i checked the fuel bowl this morning and it was full to top the injectors sound the same at buzz test i dont have a portapower to test pressure but i do have a gauge that hooks into the icp port and i can inject air so i powered up the ipr and put air in the system and i heard air coming from the number two puck injector area and it would not hold pressure so i took rail off the seals on puck look ok but i am gonna replace and run test again |
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dsalinas1939
Top Member
USA
1326 Posts |
Posted - 04/05/2018 : 04:33:04 AM
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| when i took oil rail off yesurday i noticed there was no oil sitting in the top of injector where the puck sits in on cylinder number 2 and the rest all did so i put some oil in it just to see if it would hold and left it over night and this morning i cam in and it was empty again and all the rest are still full i am thinkin that might be part of my slow oil pressure build up on crank???? |
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namao
Senior Member
Canada
89 Posts |
Posted - 04/05/2018 : 06:26:29 AM
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| Sounds like your on the right track, I would fix what I know is wrong than go at it again. Seal hpop system under the v/c, you know you have a leak. Any air in the system is going to make it take longer to push out and hydraulics do not like compressioning air. This is probly one of the times that a porta power would of saved time, it only takes 15 minutes to set up and check for leaks under the valve cover and its a go no go test.If it passes you know your problem is elsewhere , no guessing. I use to use shop air pressure but I found on smaller leaks you had to run air for a while to push out all the oil before you would hear any noise on the smaller leaks. AT over 500 psi even a smaller leak bleeds down pretty fast if there is a issue. The other thing is once I did my fix I would repressure with my pump just to make sure I didn't miss any thing. Sort of like fixing a tire, you patch a hole but then once it holds air you find a second smaller leak that needs a repair. Unless we resealed whole system injector orings and pucks. Good luck. |
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dsalinas1939
Top Member
USA
1326 Posts |
Posted - 04/05/2018 : 10:03:10 AM
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| yeah i hear what your saying i gotta figure out where to get adapters for a porta power and order a new on we have one for boddy stuff dont wanna use that one well i have injectors on order will post update when i get htem installed |
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jeeptjken
Senior Member
147 Posts |
Posted - 04/05/2018 : 10:42:01 AM
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| you can get all the adapters right from you IC dealer that's where we got ours work like a charm |
How did you get the gosinta in the whatchamacallit |
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Brad Barker
Administrator
USA
874 Posts |
Posted - 04/08/2018 : 4:10:12 PM
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| Injector oil adapters run $14 to $22 range each. They also require a special socket to remove and install, available from IC p/n ZTSE4725. Coat the external o ring with fresh motor oil when installing and screw in slowly by hand until seated then torque to 150 ft lbs. Shop air works well to locate leaks. Air gets in the system anyway when replacing components and purges by itself. Once the engine is running, warm it to op temp in the shop on high idle then drive for 20 miles to insure all air is out of the system. Although the porto-power may work, I would not invest in one if you don't have one. Leaks can be found by other means described in the diagnostic service manual or with shop air. Shop air psi does not have to be real high, 150 psi should suffice. If you are replacing the oil adapters and the injectors have some time on them I recommend resealing them at the same time. Cleanliness is crucial during the procedure. Injector hold down bolts use a #40 torx (long) and are torqued to 30 lb lbs. Before installing the oil manifold, fill the injector cavity to the top with clean motor oil. It is much easier to adjust the valves with injectors out and oil manifold off. Be sure to suction all fluids from the cylinders before installing the injectors. Cups and injectors must be bright shiny clean prior to assembly. |
Brad A. Barker |
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06 international hard start
