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1998f800
Active Member
16 Posts |
 Posted - 01/13/2011 : 11:53:51 AM
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| wheels and others have the studs and lugs?? can they be changed or are hubs totally different??? is one style better than the other??? |
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bwest
Administrator
United States
3820 Posts |
Posted - 01/14/2011 : 09:41:53 AM
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I'm not sure what you are saying. There are two types of bus wheels: Bud and Dayton. Bud has holes in the rims just like your car, Dayton have studs on a large cast center and the wheels have no center but slide on this large cast center and use a wedge to hold the wheel in place. Bud wheel are the only kind used in the US today.
As for studs and lugs, besides the obvious use of the term to describe a school bus mechanic. A stud is the bolt that comes out of the center or hub. A lug is what the nut is called that holds the wheel on.
In a farm application there are some wheels that have studs and lugs and others that have a tappered bolt with a threaded hole in the hub to hold the wheel on.
Hope this clears things up. Oh yea, one other thing. These terms might be a regional lingo type thing and all I just said may be as Greek to you as, well....... Greek is to me.
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Bryan |
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1998f800
Active Member
16 Posts |
Posted - 01/14/2011 : 11:08:06 AM
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| dayton wheels. those aren't bud wheels. i'm buying a bus but it has those dayton wheels and i want buds. it's a 93 and the other is a 95. i'm wondering if there is a reason alot of these buses have the dayton wheels??? |
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bwest
Administrator
United States
3820 Posts |
Posted - 01/14/2011 : 11:39:37 AM
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Price and traditon. That is to say, they were cheaper back then (buds were an option) and the older guys knew them so that is what they ordered. Same goes with the tire sizes. The old 9.00-20s and even farther back than that was the 8.25-20s were what the guys were used to and at the time they were the best technolgy available.
Daytons are ok if you take your time when you mount them and get them straight. I don't know what you are using the bus for but it would be very exspensive to change one over to Buds. |
Bryan |
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IBTMech
Top Member
USA
973 Posts |
Posted - 01/14/2011 : 3:09:38 PM
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OK. I just want to clarify a couple things.
Dayton wheels are the rim clamp type. Old school.
Budd rims are dual nut on stud type wheels. Old school.
The newest type are hub-piloted wheels.... not interchangable with either Budd or Dayton.... and use metric nuts on studs. New school. (33mm socket, 450 ft/lb torque) |
If it doesn't fit, FORCE it.
If it breaks, well, it needed replacing anyway.
Pullin' wrenches for 45 years. |
Edited by - IBTMech on 01/14/2011 3:11:15 PM |
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08 Thomas EF
Top Member
533 Posts |
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Thomasbus24
Administrator
USA
4547 Posts |
Posted - 01/15/2011 : 05:08:26 AM
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The '08 EF, '10 CE and '04 CE all feature hub piloted while that old Ford appears and is most likely to have budds. Openings in the rims is no indicator.
The easiest way to tell them apart (on an assembled bus) is to look at the lugnuts. If there is no washer between the nut and the rim, they are Budds. If there is a large washer built in to the nut, they are hub pilot.
On the rear axle only of a Budd equipped, you'll see not only the nuts without washers, but at the tip of the stud is a square head that is not found on hub piloted.
As for the original question, conversion from/to any style would be quite pricey. Any of the three types are fine and safe to operate as long as whoever is servicing them knows what he/she is doing.
Sidebar-- Are Dayton or Budd even available from OEMs now? Newest Budd chassis I have personal knowledge of is around 1999. |
Edited by - Thomasbus24 on 01/15/2011 05:18:55 AM |
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bluebirdvision
Top Member
USA
1081 Posts |
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bwest
Administrator
United States
3820 Posts |
Posted - 01/15/2011 : 08:14:57 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by IBTMech
OK. I just want to clarify a couple things.
Dayton wheels are the rim clamp type. Old school.
Budd rims are dual nut on stud type wheels. Old school.
The newest type are hub-piloted wheels.... not interchangable with either Budd or Dayton.... and use metric nuts on studs. New school. (33mm socket, 450 ft/lb torque)
Thanks for clairifying my post. I learned something, I didn't realize there was a name change there. I thought the general term "Bud" was for wheels with the center built in and then when the hub piloted came along that the term "bud" was used but was clairfied by the term "hub piloted". And yes I know the difference in how they mount. |
Bryan |
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Harrison Fire
Senior Member
United States
175 Posts |
Posted - 01/15/2011 : 10:08:03 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by bwest
Thanks for clairifying my post. I learned something, I didn't realize there was a name change there. I thought the general term "Bud" was for wheels with the center built in and then when the hub piloted came along that the term "bud" was used but was clairfied by the term "hub piloted". And yes I know the difference in how they mount.
There are 2 kinds of piloted wheels in common use. (Plus the Daytons)
Snip...
Hub-piloted Mounting System
-Wheel Centers on Hub-Pilots-
Characteristics:
1. Hub-piloted wheels use 2-piece flange nuts.
2. Non-Chamfered (non-beveled) bolt holes identify a hub-piloted wheel.
Benefits
* Elimination of bolt hole chamfer wear
* Greater clamping force for a given torque
* Reduction in nut wear and nut replacement
* Elimination of left hand threaded hardware
* More consistent nut torque retention
* Elimination of inner cap nuts
Stud Piloted Wheels (Budd)
Stud-piloted Mounting System
-Wheel Centers on Studs-
Characteristics:
1. Stud-piloted wheels use nuts with ball seat.
3. Chamfered (beveled) bolt holes identify a stud-piloted wheel.
Benefits
* Standard mounting system in industry
* Inner dual secured independently
* Doesn't require lubrication
Snip....
Want pictures?
Go here.....
http://www.walkercoach.com/wheels.shtml |
My Fleet? (6) 93/99 IH 3800 Thomas and Blue Bird, Hydraulic Brakes, Manual and Auto Trans, (10) 00/06 FS65 Thomas Air Brake and Auto Trans, (2) 06 C2 Thomas and (2) 09/10 IC CE 300, Plus 3 more from another District |
Edited by - Harrison Fire on 01/15/2011 10:09:40 AM |
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Fastback
Top Member
1500 Posts |
Posted - 01/15/2011 : 10:08:14 AM
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The Dayton cast spoke style are not assembly line friendly. There is no real downside to them IMO on air drum brake trucks/buses as with a wheel dolly jack you seldom have to dismount rims from the spoke assembly, even to replace brake shoes, drums or wheel seals.
The Dayton style really lose their appeal with disc brakes as you can no longer slide the entire assembly off without removing the caliper. Not that you don't have to also remove rims on the Budd/hubpiloted style but they don't require the time needed to get the wheels back running true, which can be aggravating if all you needed to do was replace a wheel seal. |
Why yes, the ORIGinal CHARGER is a Fastback |
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Cal Mc
Advanced Member
303 Posts |
Posted - 01/16/2011 : 9:08:21 PM
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| It is my understanding that Dayton wheels were discontinued with the introduction of ABS brakes. The action of the brakes when the ABS system is active may be more agressive and cause the Dayton wheels to slip. |
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matts4290
Advanced Member
224 Posts |
Posted - 01/16/2011 : 10:49:57 PM
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^I don't think thats necessarily true, although it makes good sense. We do have a few buses with ABS and cast spoke wheels. While working as a commercial tire technician, I fixed a few flat tires due to lack of lug nut torque, and the wheels have spun on the hub, causing the valve stem to shear off.
Also, I wanted to clarify from my experience the problems I have seen with the different rims.
Hub Piloted disc wheels- There is tight clearance between the contacts on the hub and center of the wheel, which is good for keeping the wheel spinning true, but if they happen to rust up, or if they are repainted while on the vehicle, they become very difficult to remove and require a lot of help from your pal the sledghammer.
Stud Piloted disc wheels- I have changed a lot where the inner lug nut gets stuck to the outer lug nut while removing the outer one. We usually remove the wheel with the lug nuts stuck on(usually from rust), and use a tool to hold the outer lug nut while we spin the inner out of it with the impact, which is another step if they don't all come off like they are supposed to.
The other problem (as briefly mentioned in another post) is that the socket in the wheels (the taper in the holes) can wear out from excessive torque/removal/installation, which requires replacement of the wheel.
Cast Spoke- Extra time is need straighten them up when installing them. There is also (or should be) the extra step in removal that you loosen the lug nuts first, then smack the rim or the wedges to loosen them before removing the nuts completely. If this step is avoided, the wedges MAY pop off causing injury to whomever or whatever is in front of the wheel/hub.
The cast spoke wheels can also spin on the hub, which shears off the valve stem if not properly torqued.
And, I don't think they have been eliminated from new products in the US. I am pretty sure that container trailers sill use 9 or 10.00-20s on dayton wheels. |
We can't all be conventional!
http://www.youtube.com/user/matts4290 |
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Fastback
Top Member
1500 Posts |
Posted - 01/17/2011 : 04:37:47 AM
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| We have an ABS air brake bus with cast spoke dayton wheels. |
Why yes, the ORIGinal CHARGER is a Fastback |
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slippert
Top Member
USA
630 Posts |
Posted - 01/17/2011 : 06:41:15 AM
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| I was always told that the Dayton wheels had a higher weight rating than a bud or hub piloted wheel that was why you see alot of them on dump tucks, heavy hauling uses. as the solid cast center was stronger than a stamped steel disc. as said above it takes a little finesse to get them straight. I could never see why anybody used them on a bus unless it was cheaper for the manufacture of just old habits? |
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JustinB
Advanced Member
United States
490 Posts |
Posted - 01/17/2011 : 12:11:55 PM
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"I could never see why anybody used them on a bus unless it was cheaper for the manufacture of just old habits?"
Used to be cheaper & compounded by old habits. |
I may not know the answer but I can usually find who does. |
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IBTMech
Top Member
USA
973 Posts |
Posted - 01/17/2011 : 3:49:18 PM
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Personally, I was glad to see the industry shift from spoke to hub-piloted wheels. Our first ABS buses/trucks still had spoke wheels and if I had more influence in the bid process I would have had hub piloted wheels on them back then. As it is, we finally switched in '04.
The number of times I have had to change two flat tires due to spun rims on a heavily overloaded plow trucks (properly torqued) in the middle of a near blizzard convinced me that hub-piloted wheels was the way to go. We now order the heavy-duty rims on all of our plow trucks and since '04 we have only had one case of the rims cracking around the bolt circle.
We get the standard duty rims on our buses and I remove the wheels within the first year and buff and lube the rim contact points before they get to the point that Mr. Sledgehammer has to do the job. I also remove the drums and shoes and lube the anchor pins. |
If it doesn't fit, FORCE it.
If it breaks, well, it needed replacing anyway.
Pullin' wrenches for 45 years. |
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JustinB
Advanced Member
United States
490 Posts |
Posted - 01/18/2011 : 09:18:08 AM
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Some solid best practices there IBTMech.  |
I may not know the answer but I can usually find who does. |
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wagonmaster
Top Member
USA
2298 Posts |
Posted - 01/18/2011 : 09:39:19 AM
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quote:
There is no real downside to them IMO on air drum brake trucks/buses as with a wheel dolly jack you seldom have to dismount rims from the spoke assembly, even to replace brake shoes, drums or wheel seals.
When mounting the Dayton style wheel you must "true" them up to prevent the "wobble" associated with these rimes. Sometimes this can be a tedious process, even for an experienced tire man. Takes WAAAY to long to get them mounted and ruing smooth. The Budd of either type (stud or hub piloted) is far superior and smoother, help extend tire life and are generally safer to deal with. |
Joe
Land of the Free, because of the Brave! |
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Topic |
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wheels why do some have clamp on
