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ICFrank
Active Member
United States
27 Posts |
 Posted - 06/29/2010 : 05:46:46 AM
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| Yesterday I talked with a mechanic from a neighboring school district. He said that they have two buses with DT466E at the dealer being rebuilt because the coolant corroded the cylinder linings. He said that the 2000 through 2003 engines with extened antifreeze where susposed to have silicate added to the coolant system. My question is this has anybody else heard about this, and is it to late to add silicate to the coolant systems to protect them now? |
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bwest
Administrator
United States
3820 Posts |
Posted - 06/29/2010 : 06:20:53 AM
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| I'm just a dumb hick from the country but that sounds almost like a muffler bearing. The reason I say this is on the side of my extended life Havoline antifreeze jug I have it makes a point to say it has no silicate. Then when I looked it up on the web it says it's basically sand. Futher investigation shows that "slica" build up in a cooling sysem can be a problem. All these assumptions may be wrong but that's my take on it. And no I have never heard of this before. |
Bryan |
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ICFrank
Active Member
United States
27 Posts |
Posted - 06/29/2010 : 08:40:32 AM
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Found it. International AFC# G-03908. Applies to engines built between August 1, 2000 and January 22, 2004.
Silicate Additive Kit # 8000845R91. Still have not found out if it will do any good by adding now. |
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bwest
Administrator
United States
3820 Posts |
Posted - 06/29/2010 : 08:55:59 AM
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| I stand corrected! I also found out that there is a silicate based coolant (blue). Also Bar's Leak uses it in a head gasket and block treatment. Who would have thought, sand in your coolant?! Go down to the 4th page in this document. http://barsleaksdifm.com/tech/hg3_tech.pdf |
Bryan |
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TulsaOK
Active Member
USA
40 Posts |
Posted - 06/29/2010 : 09:46:13 AM
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The corrosion on the cylinder liner is actually caused by cavitation and not corrosion as we normally think of. Cavitation is caused when the air bubbles in the coolant explode next to the o.d. of the liner walls. When each cylinder ignites it causes a shock wave that bursts these bubbles and each burst can destroy a tiny piece of the liner.
More information can be found here: http://www.advantageengineparts.com/pdfs/CavitationErosion.pdf |
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bwest
Administrator
United States
3820 Posts |
Posted - 06/29/2010 : 11:49:10 AM
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| So is this silicate a new thing? The link you gave said there is no "fix" for the cavitation problem. |
Bryan |
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TulsaOK
Active Member
USA
40 Posts |
Posted - 06/29/2010 : 12:56:40 PM
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There are a number of preventative measures that can be used. Coolant conditioners have been around a long time. Coolants with certain additives form microscopic barriers on the liners which helps prevent wear. Keeping the fluid level topped off to maximum levels. Preventing leaks and loss of fluids which can lead to topping off level more frequently and diluting additives in coolant.
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IBTMech
Top Member
USA
973 Posts |
Posted - 06/29/2010 : 4:08:28 PM
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I have been testing all of our wet sleeved diesel engines, not just Navistar, for many years now. I use the DCA4 additive and test them semi-annually for for the required levels of protection. I have seen cavitated liners in IH, Cummins and Cats. It's not a pretty sight.
Navistar has a handy test kit which will give your chemical levels and advise the amount of coolant protectant to add. The test strips also rate your freeze protection level. |
If it doesn't fit, FORCE it.
If it breaks, well, it needed replacing anyway.
Pullin' wrenches for 45 years. |
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BJ Henderson
Advanced Member
USA
280 Posts |
Posted - 06/29/2010 : 4:25:10 PM
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I agree with Tulsa, and IBTMech.
You can get litmus paper strips from NAPA or any decent parts store.
You can also get litmus paper or a test kit for DOT3 brake fluid.
Out there in Tulsa,Ok you are close to National Bus sales, we have done some business with them but it has been a few years. Very reputable company to do business with, in my opinion.
The techs we met out there were top shelf! |
CMTT,CMAT,CMBT |
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TulsaOK
Active Member
USA
40 Posts |
Posted - 06/29/2010 : 5:00:50 PM
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| I don't know anyone from National but I'm sure your comments are well deserved. I work at the IC Bus Plant in Tulsa. Previously I worked for Springfield Remanufacturing Corp in Springfield, MO. I saw a lot of 466's disassembled with severe cavitation erosion. Unbelievable that it will eat completely through a liner as hard as it is. |
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Bassman
Top Member
USA
558 Posts |
Posted - 06/30/2010 : 03:28:21 AM
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| We still use new green coolant but treat it with DCA before installation. We monitor it annually and maintain the proper balance in every bus with the test strips, use the filter with the additive, keep our levels full and check all buses several times per week. The other day, I had a dealer flush my system while working on a warranty job and charge me for flushing our system and filling with the proper coolant while working on an EGR cooler replacement (on an MBE906). Am I going wrong with my treated green? |
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JustinB
Advanced Member
United States
490 Posts |
Posted - 06/30/2010 : 05:26:30 AM
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As long as you coolant is treated with an anti-cavitation additive you should be OK. I work with several fleets that simply add either a DCA or an SCA to the coolant.
Things to keep in mind with diesel coolants:
- Test strip with each oil change
....Temperature
....DCA/SCA levels (precharced SCA systems are a 2-way test strip)
....Contamination levels in Extended Life systems (3-way test strip)
- Drain & flush Silicate (Green & Blue) based coolants @ least every 2 years.
- Pre-Charged/Fully-Formulated systems = Test Strip & adjust SCA & Freeze/Boil as needed
- ELC (Ext Life/Long-Life) Test Protectant & Freeze/Boil adjust w/ELC or Distilled H2O,
....Lab Test ELC @ 2 years, Flush/Fill @ 4 years
- If Coolant turns brown = Flush it down...., drain & refill
RE the EGR Cooler repair flush & fill. That is standard proceedure with EGR Cooler contamination. DDC Warranty doesn't cover fluids & filters on such failures. Even when the fluid is contaminated as progressive damage or DDC's own work proceedures require the fluid to be changed. Several component mfgs have similar fluid/filer/expendibles polices that have defied good customer support & logic for many years.
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I may not know the answer but I can usually find who does. |
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Wolf0r
Top Member
USA
2181 Posts |
Posted - 06/30/2010 : 06:52:24 AM
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| Printing this thread as I learned something. |
“The good thing about science is that it's true whether or not you believe in it.”
Neil deGrasse Tyson |
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Bassman
Top Member
USA
558 Posts |
Posted - 06/30/2010 : 11:54:18 AM
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| Thanks for the reply, Justin. Very thorough response. |
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bwest
Administrator
United States
3820 Posts |
Posted - 06/30/2010 : 1:18:15 PM
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| I'm testing with a test strip that tests ph and freeze level. I seldom have to add anything. Am I doing enough? |
Bryan |
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bcressey
Senior Member
USA
114 Posts |
Posted - 06/30/2010 : 5:23:11 PM
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A few things. The test strips are good (more than a lot of places are doing). It is worth it to get a few lab reports done periodically. I suggest talking to your Penray rep, they seem to know coolant better than anyone out there. Ours has done some informational small classes at our dealership and the local DDC distributor and he is coming up to do a class for the techs at our state show in Maine in July. The lab reports give you a real good snapshot of things not tested for in the strips like various minerals (especially sulfates), degradation acids, etc.
On the EGR coolers, you can get sulfuric acid in your coolant system when condensation enters in a failure, the full flush is really important at that point. It would be a shame to fix the cooler and then have other problems down the road.
For the best coolant info I usually give our customers TBB Service Bulletin 20-4.
I have seen the liner issues you guys were talking about recently. We did half a dozen in frame rebuilds on buses for export just so they could get overseas. All were DT's in that 01-03 range. Real messy- O rings and cavitation some as low as 80k miles. |
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jwreaume
Active Member
43 Posts |
Posted - 07/03/2010 : 08:10:52 AM
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| Just an aside, the test strips are great, and we use a ton of them, but nothing beats a refractometer for accurate freeze/boil point. We have serious concerns with freeze point here in the great white north. Just a thought.... Also, on the EGR discussion, vacuum filling the cooling system will save on cavitation (again) of the EGR Cooler itself, reducing the frequency of failures. |
17 years in the truck & bus world, 10 years at an IH Dealer, ASE Certified Master Medium & Heavy Truck Technician and Advanced Level Diesel Engine Diagnostic Specialist, IH Diamond Certified 5 Times, Instructor of Apprentice Techs in Engines, Fuels, Electrical & Electronics.
Ask anything, I likely will have the answer, or at least a believable lie for ya...
120 Units, 5 Bays, 5 Techs, Living the dream baby... |
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jeepcjron
Advanced Member
USA
262 Posts |
Posted - 07/04/2010 : 1:48:10 PM
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| its been my expierence with IH that they didnt go to extended life until egr engines. i know the bulletins say in 2000 but i have yet to see a nonegr engine come with it. as everyone has stated be sure to ph test green. penray has a strip for EL but dont use dca4 for that. |
its like a slinky! useless but fun to watch. |
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Thomasbus24
Administrator
USA
4547 Posts |
Posted - 07/05/2010 : 10:50:13 AM
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| I've got your non-EGR DT466 with factory-direct red stuff. Chassis built date 12/5/03, and we got that bulletin at around 64,000 miles, added the junk, and at 320,000 we are rolling strong. Other fleet engines that did not get treated werent so lucky. |
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wagonmaster
Top Member
USA
2298 Posts |
Posted - 07/06/2010 : 05:01:41 AM
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| We use the DCA additive and neve have issues, going back to the 1980's with Cummins, IC, Detroit Diesel and CAT engines.r |
Joe
Land of the Free, because of the Brave! |
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IBTMech
Top Member
USA
973 Posts |
Posted - 07/06/2010 : 3:51:25 PM
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I have an '01 and two '04s...... nonEGR.... that came through with extended life coolant and received a silicate additive from Navistar, part of a campaign.
No issues so far. |
If it doesn't fit, FORCE it.
If it breaks, well, it needed replacing anyway.
Pullin' wrenches for 45 years. |
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DT466E coolant issue
