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Davidrte9
Senior Member
United States
98 Posts |
 Posted - 09/29/2009 : 3:17:47 PM
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Now that Michigan is on the verge of shutting down, it is almost certain that education will get cut some. Well you know who gets cut first. Bend over Bus Drivers and grab your Ankles. I think it is called BOHEICA. Well with our current bus fleet, we are at about 82% of rated capacity. I am sure that if the money is short, they will want to get this closer to 100%. How do we do that, cut a route or two. Now here comes the question.
I have a request for an opinion to the Attorney General as to just how many kids we can put in a seat. I do not see this adderessed in the Pupil Transportation act other than we cannot exceed the manfacturers rated capacity.
We transport all students on the same bus, all the way from 3 years old pre schoolers to Alt. Ed. I know I cannot seat three High school boys (many of our drivers segregate boys and girls but that is a subject of another thred) in a seat so I try to limit my High school students to, two to a seat. (Our kids are rather on the large side) But with my preschoolers and Head starts, I can easily seat four to a seat. My TD has told me it is aganist Michigan state law to have more than three to a seat. Does anyone have any opinion on this?
It has been suggested that we mix them up and put preschoolers with high school and middle school but this would not be two popular with most of the parents, not to mention the students. |
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Salaskie
Advanced Member
USA
453 Posts |
Posted - 09/29/2009 : 5:51:22 PM
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Our District:
Buses have two size seats; 39 inch and 26 inch.
Elementary students (grades K-6); 3 and 2 to a seat respectively.
Middle and High School; 2 to a seat for both sizes.
Pre-school students are transported on a special needs bus with belts. Car Seats or Q-Vests are used. The breaking point for no car seat or Q-vest is 40 pounds and 4 years old. After that, they may be restrained by a lap belt. Don't have shoulder harnesses YET :-)
No more than two in each seat. If a Q-Vest is used, no student can sit behind them, which limits it to a single passenger.
As with any district, we have budget issues also. But the safety of our students will not be compromised due to declining dollars.
BTW...I was told the 3 and 2 is a national standard. I would research this to find out. |
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JK
Top Member
USA
7307 Posts |
Posted - 09/29/2009 : 8:33:59 PM
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<< It has been suggested that we mix them up and put preschoolers with high school and middle school but this would not be two popular with most of the parents, not to mention the students.
So much depends on the support available to insure a safe, calm bus.
If you do not have good student management support then whatever the combination will not work very well and mixing grades can traumatize the little ones. You must have good support in place first.
When I'm driving a route, at the school I’m out of my seat assigning the students their seat that trip in a mixed fashion throughout the bus. The older students are assigned a shared responsibility to help keep the younger children safe and calm. Any disrespect toward fellows, the driver and directions, and whining can result in an escort to the office for that child to resolve that attitude before allowed back on the bus. Very direct, very simple, very assured what happens next.
You have to create an environment on the bus that provides activities, which meet their needs. Kids can not just sit and behave - have to be given something to do that you want them doing.
In addition to complete bus driver control where each student sits, no whining allowed, I also provide school bus safety related books that the older students can read to the young in their seat, or the child reads with help from the older student.
Haven't done this yet this year but on occasion I have IPOD like bus safety video player with school bus safety episodes and stop bullying episodes that the older students seem to learn from as well. The students bring their own headphones or when quiet enough a speaker amp is attached).
No one shouts on your bus or is otherwise loud or disrespectful. Only the bus driver and staff shout when necessary.
Soft voices within own area is allowed when the bus driver and staff are not addressing the students and when not at railroad crossings.
All students must stay completely out of the aisle and sit as though wearing a seat belt when the bus is not installed with these safety devises.
The result is a safer, calmer environment that amazes both staff and parents. Within the week the students have found calmer activities to get them through the route.
Have had the press visit, school and district officials, all surprised by the calm environment and the kids doing so well - no sad faces and that sort of thing.
Regardless, there remain a few parents that act out now and then. Document each day’s activities and those students, if any, that acted out during the run.
Be helpful with information to the helpful parent - send school bus safety education materials home with the children or by mail.
Be direct with the obnoxious-styled parent. When any student, including IEP and SPEC ED makes the decision to accept the privilege to ride any mainstream school bus that decision must include the decision to follow directions. Also mail these parents some school bus safety materials.
All expect the school bus to be a safe place for their children while often not realizing that any child acting out, the so-called normal kids’ behaviors, endangers that expectation and everyone riding on or near that school bus. Until this is understood by all the adults involved most are spinning their wheels committing the same failures over and over and getting the same results.
None claim to want unsafe bus environments but look how many allow it anyway.
To be successful on the bus you must have active support from the well-behaved adults involved helping to keep kids safe. When enough of the well behaved are with you then the false power of the obnoxious and of the naysayers fades away.
The decision to allow hostile school bus environments encourages the best kids to act out. They must survive. It does not have to be that way, regardless, stay in the usual rut and the result is the usual - hostile environments that neglected children are forced to endure. (jk)
Updated - Death at the school bus stop Booklet (pdf) (Thread Post #4)
Free Photos, Ads, New School Year Bus Safety Template with Quiz - for use in schools and transportation departments to help promote school bus safety. Not for Resale use. Contact if release needed. You do not have to be a member to download these resources. Click Here for link
Policy Development Sheet: – School Bus Code of Conduct - Click Here for Link |
Edited by - JK on 10/04/2009 2:59:58 PM |
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Davidrte9
Senior Member
United States
98 Posts |
Posted - 10/04/2009 : 1:06:20 PM
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I have been doing a little research over the week end and have drawn the conclusion that if you transport pre school children, the NHTSA recomends that they be transported in child safety seats and either the seat behind them be vacant or these children be belted in. I have printed a lot of the information which I will give to my TD in the morning.
As I stated in another post, I have up to nine pre school and head start on my bus and a lot of the other routes have about the same. With the space these will take up on the bus, it may require more routes or the Board deciding to not transport these children.
The other option is to just bury their Head in the sand and just continue staus quo. If this were the option, it seems they enjoy saving money over the lives of these children.
Now as far as the number of children in the seat. There are no federal guidelines as to how many children you can put in a seat, the only requirement is that they do not hang over the side.
I have always felt that a type of arm rest such as the driver seat has would solve this problem but the powers that be do not agree with me and feel seat belts are the answer. |
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JK
Top Member
USA
7307 Posts |
Posted - 10/04/2009 : 3:03:25 PM
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You're thinking like an engineer, not like a politician or school official. The original compartmentalization design by engineers included both seat belts and aisle-side armrests. (jk)
Updated - Death at the school bus stop Booklet (pdf) (Thread Post #4)
Free Photos, Ads, New School Year Bus Safety Template with Quiz - for use in schools and transportation departments to help promote school bus safety. Not for Resale use. Contact if release needed. You do not have to be a member to download these resources. Click Here for link
Policy Development Sheet: – School Bus Code of Conduct - Click Here for Link |
Edited by - JK on 10/04/2009 3:04:31 PM |
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Davidrte9
Senior Member
United States
98 Posts |
Posted - 10/06/2009 : 2:46:32 PM
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OK well here is what I found out today. My TD is a very knowlegable lady when it comes to pupil transportation. We were discussing the pre school issue and she advised me that not only is this a guideline from the Federal Government it was up graded to a Mandate. Now here is where it gets messy.
The state can issue a waiver to school district if they can provide a good reason why they should be allowed to transport pre school students with out restraint. Our school dist has this waiver so we transport 3 and 4 year olds just like a High School student. The reason we do is because we are rural and poor and there is no one else to do it.
I guess there are hundreds of excuses and loop holds that allow us to jeprodize the safety of our Kids but I wonder what excuse they will use when a child is seriously injured or killed. |
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Salaskie
Advanced Member
USA
453 Posts |
Posted - 10/07/2009 : 08:28:59 AM
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Interesting logic the district is using :-(
When you offer a program, (pre-school), you don't begin until it is funded. Part of the funding is transportation.
You cannot add belts to big buses, so I see where their logic is coming into play here. No money in the budget to purchase a new bus equipped with belts or hire staff to drive and attend.
Even grant money runs out, then a district has to fund in the future.
Why does your district have pre-schoolers in school? Are they special needs?
Good luck. You are right. It's a messy situation. |
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Davidrte9
Senior Member
United States
98 Posts |
Posted - 10/07/2009 : 2:44:49 PM
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Well we kind of got the word today. The TD came in and told us that because of the student count in the school and on the buses, one more route will be cut and the rest will be realigned. I average about 62 on my 78 pax bus but some of the others are about 45. Can't say I blame them, I guess we should just be glad to have a job.
One good thing about our place, is they pay us so little that it would actually cost them more to privatize our transportation.
I guess we just have to put up with the stress of all the unprotected pre schoolers if we want to keep our student count up. |
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UncleNeal
Senior Member
USA
153 Posts |
Posted - 10/12/2009 : 11:05:09 AM
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| In California, this answer is easy: the CHP dictates and certifies the capacity of each bus, based on the manufacturer's identification plate in the vehicle. And since all new vehicles must have lat & shoulder restraints, the number of belts equals the number of students. |
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Mr. Dave
Senior Member
United States
120 Posts |
Posted - 10/12/2009 : 9:10:00 PM
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"I guess there are hundreds of excuses and loop holds that allow us to jeprodize the safety of our Kids but I wonder what excuse they will use when a child is seriously injured or killed." -Davdrte9
The answer is quite simple. They will rule it driver error. The driver will be pilloried for not patroling the rear of the bus, and keeping the children properly seated while giving one hundred percent of his attention to driving the bus.
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Shiny side up
Greasy side down |
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Davidrte9
Senior Member
United States
98 Posts |
Posted - 10/13/2009 : 2:10:28 PM
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| Yes Mr. Dave I know exactly what you mean. |
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Davidrte9
Senior Member
United States
98 Posts |
Posted - 10/15/2009 : 3:06:26 PM
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| Well it is offical. the Super. darkened our door yesterday to let the TD know that the board had voted to cut one more route. Can you say Sardines. |
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Davidrte9
Senior Member
United States
98 Posts |
Posted - 10/16/2009 : 2:20:01 PM
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| Got the unofical word today. loosing 6 students but gaining 20. Already have 55 regulars. Starts Nov. 01. Should be a fun day. I pick up the 20 new ones before I hit my regular route. They will take the best seats first off. Going to be a fun day resolving the Turf war. |
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Salaskie
Advanced Member
USA
453 Posts |
Posted - 10/19/2009 : 10:36:34 AM
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| What size buses are you using? Passenger wise? (72 pac? 77? 84? etc.) |
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Davidrte9
Senior Member
United States
98 Posts |
Posted - 10/20/2009 : 2:36:00 PM
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| 77/78 pax Blue Bird and Thomas |
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Thomasbus24
Administrator
USA
4547 Posts |
Posted - 10/20/2009 : 4:47:27 PM
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Up until the 1990's we were allowed in Ohio to run a school bus at 10% over it's rated passenger capacity. Then it became rated cap only. Then, sometime around 2000, this new law that said 'all riders shall be seated to afford them maximum protection by the barrier'. In other words, if three kids can't sit in that seat and be fully behind the barrier in front of them, there shall not be three kids in that seat, even if the bus maker says there can be.
Tread carefully...attorneys are plentiful, people are hurting for money (as we all know) and any excuse to go to court is taken! |
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Davidrte9
Senior Member
United States
98 Posts |
Posted - 10/21/2009 : 2:59:14 PM
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| Can you say "Gray area"? Who determines this, the Jury. |
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number of children in a seat
