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GMCBlueBird83
Top Member
USA
1478 Posts |
 Posted - 12/23/2006 : 10:27:51 AM
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I was wondering why the ISC is not available in many school bus applications. As it stands right now, if you want to run a conventional or FE unit with a wet sleeve engine you are limited to the IC product and the DT466.
The Cummins ISC which also utilizes a wet sleeve design is available on both the Blue Bird and Thomas rear engine buses, but not since the late '90s Freightliner conventionals has it seen duty in any other bus that I'm aware of. Is it a size issue, the ISC being 8.3 Liters vs. 7.6 Liters for the DT466 or is it something else?
I'm sure there are plenty of operations that would love to run Blue Bird or Thomas buses but will not simply because of the wet sleeve availablity issue. Any ideas? |
Edited by - GMCBlueBird83 on 12/23/2006 10:32:22 AM
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B. Busguy33
Top Member
USA
3444 Posts |
Posted - 12/23/2006 : 11:55:33 AM
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| At one point, I thought you could spec a BB AA FE with an ISC, no? |
Edited by - B. Busguy33 on 12/23/2006 11:55:50 AM |
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Thomasbus24
Administrator
USA
4547 Posts |
Posted - 12/23/2006 : 12:37:20 PM
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Perhaps physical room is an issue? The C series is much larger than the 5.9 B series. I ran three Thomas EF's with the B engines and let me tell you...they were jammed into that space.
Don't ever expect IC to offer anything other than their own brand engine. Personally I don't expect Thomas to offer anything other than Mercedes after the chassis are redesigned. Blue Bird is the last one standing. |
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GMCBlueBird83
Top Member
USA
1478 Posts |
Posted - 12/23/2006 : 1:50:32 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by B. Busguy33
At one point, I thought you could spec a BB AA FE with an ISC, no?
Some say yes, some say no. I've never personally seen one with an ISC.
quote:
Originally posted by Thomasbus24
Perhaps physical room is an issue? The C series is much larger than the 5.9 B series. I ran three Thomas EF's with the B engines and let me tell you...they were jammed into that space.
Don't ever expect IC to offer anything other than their own brand engine. Personally I don't expect Thomas to offer anything other than Mercedes after the chassis are redesigned. Blue Bird is the last one standing.
Yes, that is true but I figured if IC could fit a 7.6 liter I-6 into an FE that in theory Blue Bird or Thomas could possibly shoehorn in an 8.3 liter I-6 as well, if not in their current offerings then perhaps in the future. Although I still wonder about the conventionals. Are the BB Vision and Thomas C2 engine compartments that much smaller than a Freightliner FS-65?
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wagonmaster
Top Member
USA
2298 Posts |
Posted - 12/23/2006 : 3:55:13 PM
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| They aren't available with the ISC, too large an engine for most conventional or FE chassis. IC is the only game in town for a wet sleeve engine in a conventional or FE. |
Joe
Land of the Free, because of the Brave! |
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GMCBlueBird83
Top Member
USA
1478 Posts |
Posted - 12/23/2006 : 5:00:35 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by wagonmaster
They aren't available with the ISC, too large an engine for most conventional or FE chassis. IC is the only game in town for a wet sleeve engine in a conventional or FE.
Ah Joe, just the person I was hoping would respond That's pretty much what I figured but I thought that maybe there was more complex reason for it. Its a shame because the ISC seems to be the less troubleprone of the two from everything I've read on here.
Are you still thinking about going with a Blue Bird FE with an ISB for your next purchase? I know you had mentioned it about a year ago. Have a Merry Christmas! |
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bcressey
Senior Member
USA
114 Posts |
Posted - 12/24/2006 : 08:14:11 AM
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I think with the advances in lubrication and electronic controls, wet sleeve engines are old technology. We see very few catastrophic failures and the wet sleeve design is more expensive.
If you look at the B50 lives for the MBE 900 series vs. the DT you will see that there is little difference and that the 900 actually has a better B50 life based on the #'s I have seen.
quote:
Originally posted by GMCBlueBird83
I was wondering why the ISC is not available in many school bus applications. As it stands right now, if you want to run a conventional or FE unit with a wet sleeve engine you are limited to the IC product and the DT466.
The Cummins ISC which also utilizes a wet sleeve design is available on both the Blue Bird and Thomas rear engine buses, but not since the late '90s Freightliner conventionals has it seen duty in any other bus that I'm aware of. Is it a size issue, the ISC being 8.3 Liters vs. 7.6 Liters for the DT466 or is it something else?
I'm sure there are plenty of operations that would love to run Blue Bird or Thomas buses but will not simply because of the wet sleeve availablity issue. Any ideas?
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Brad Barker
Administrator
USA
874 Posts |
Posted - 12/27/2006 : 1:20:21 PM
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Wet sleeve becomes beneficial only on high mileage situations. Come overhaul time costs are much lower. For my application Parent Bore engines have worked extremely well and save approximately $1550 in initial purchase price over Wet Sleeve.
For most school bus applications if PM's are done properly and the bus is driven properly for the life of the bus you will see little or no problems with the PB engine that would affect the cylinder and piston area. |
Brad A. Barker |
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wagonmaster
Top Member
USA
2298 Posts |
Posted - 12/28/2006 : 06:04:24 AM
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Brad points out the obvious and that is high mileage situations are more demanding and where a wet sleeve engine is more benficial. Not to mention the fact that when a driver happens to run one excessively that is overheated, the rebuild procedure is simplified and far quicker and less expensive, regardless of mileage situation. You stand to save WAY more than the inital $1500 that Brad spoke about previously.
It may be "old technology". However, since there hasn't been a more efficient, longer lasting engine developed yet, that would explain why every major engine manufacturer and truck/bus manufacturer in the entire world continues to use the "old" wet sleeve design.
Yes, to answer to the question posed...We are trying some ISB powered Thomas FE units for ESE student transport. We hope to begin see them in February, along with our MBE 900 powered Thomas HDX units....Yes, we bought some of them too. Early tests have proven their worthiness and durability. Still won't be as easy to overhaul as a wet sleeve design, but we hope that we won't have many to do over the long haul.
Happy New Year, everyone! |
Joe
Land of the Free, because of the Brave! |
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GMCBlueBird83
Top Member
USA
1478 Posts |
Posted - 12/28/2006 : 3:11:21 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by wagonmaster
Yes, to answer to the question posed...We are trying some ISB powered Thomas FE units for ESE student transport. We hope to begin see them in February, along with our MBE 900 powered Thomas HDX units....Yes, we bought some of them too. Early tests have proven their worthiness and durability. Still won't be as easy to overhaul as a wet sleeve design, but we hope that we won't have many to do over the long haul.
Happy New Year, everyone!
Joe, thanks for the info! I've been reading online and speaking to some people about the new ISB and the new ones seem to be a lot better than previous versions. I guess after the 466 issues you guys have had, the ISB was really the only way to go for your FEs( I remember you not being much of a CAT fan).
As for the next HDXs, I must say, this is interesting if not exactly surprising news. Some have commented on the Thomas possibly offering only their own Mercedes engines in the future, although this has not been confirmed. Great idea on checking out these engines out just in case the ISC goes away in the Thomas product.
I know a guy who runs a few of the MBE 900 series in his HDXs and he loves them! I hope these buses prove themselves to be reliable for you as well. Happy New Year |
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Cummins ISC on conventionals and FEs
