Author |
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valleybusman
Top Member
USA
808 Posts |
Posted - 04/22/2015 : 4:56:04 PM
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Yesterday I was driving a route for another driver . Bus was running great . About an hour into the run I dropped off some students and went to leave the stop . I was picking up speed and watching my gauges . At about 35 mph started loosing power and watched as my speedometer and tach were dropping . I pressed on the acelaraterr and nothing .I was on a busy highway with no shoulders so I couldn't look at all the gauges as I coasted to a stop . I tied to restart the bus and wouldn't begin to start . This morning my service maxx only had one code 426 ? Said no. 6 injecter low or high . I cleaned the filter and had a new CMP an tried that .Engine just spins . I did check fuses in the battery box all good . Which direction should I go . Hope someone can help . Thanks |
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Bus Tech1
Senior Member
76 Posts |
Posted - 04/22/2015 : 5:12:34 PM
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How is the engine and high pressure pump pressures? |
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valleybusman
Top Member
USA
808 Posts |
Posted - 04/22/2015 : 8:11:07 PM
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Well I am not sure . While I was running the gauge showed 55 lbs . Not sure about the HPOP . |
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Bus Tech1
Senior Member
76 Posts |
Posted - 04/23/2015 : 07:26:57 AM
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Can you check HPOP with your Service Maxx? I believe you need a min. of about 700psi to start. |
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mysterytrain
Active Member
34 Posts |
Posted - 04/23/2015 : 07:30:20 AM
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had one die and did not set a code for icp pressure, icp sensor biased high showed 3500 pounds with engine off, replaced sensor and ran like a top again, icp sensor should be at 0 psi with engine off. like it was stated the pump must produce about 700 psi to start. |
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valleybusman
Top Member
USA
808 Posts |
Posted - 04/23/2015 : 08:03:58 AM
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I am fairly new to service maxx . Can I check HPOP with it ? Also if I remember right if I unplug ICP doesn't allow the engine will start but only idle . |
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Bus Tech1
Senior Member
76 Posts |
Posted - 04/23/2015 : 08:18:10 AM
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If the ICP sensor is bad it may start. You should be able to read all the data if you have the Service Maxx program. Click on the tab "pressure" above where it says module connection. |
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valleybusman
Top Member
USA
808 Posts |
Posted - 04/23/2015 : 09:06:20 AM
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Okay first thank you to those who responsded .I crank engine over while plugged in . I ran pressuer check on service maxx . I showed 67 psi on injection control pressure and 0 on ICP . Shows over 2000 lbs exhaust pressure |
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Bus Tech1
Senior Member
76 Posts |
Posted - 04/23/2015 : 11:21:49 AM
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With the HOP reading I would look towards the pump normally but I have never seen a high exhaust pressure reading like that. I would check the ex. sensor first(I don`t know if that could shut the bus down). Do you have a Navistar account to acess the manuals to troubleshoot? |
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valleybusman
Top Member
USA
808 Posts |
Posted - 04/23/2015 : 1:54:13 PM
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No I do not . Another thought on the oil pressure is I am wondering if oil is to thin . Been awhile sice they serviced this bus |
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Bus Tech1
Senior Member
76 Posts |
Posted - 04/23/2015 : 2:04:23 PM
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Normally with thin oil I think you would notice the same as injector o-rings leaking(no start hot). Other than the exhaust pressure reading I would lean towards the HOP pump. Maybe someone else has a better idea. I`m not good at sending pages or I would find it and send it. |
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57fan
Senior Member
United States
148 Posts |
Posted - 04/23/2015 : 9:44:24 PM
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Not sure about your readings you are seeing. first off ignore the EBP sensor reading as well as 426. I have seen these kinds of reading before when other codes are present. They usually go away and do not affect starting. now onto the the HPOP readings. don't know what your refering to that is 67 psi but going to assume this is a fuel pressure reading which is normal.
Now running Servicemaxx, go to sessions and choose hard start or no start (I think thats what it is called). look at your ICPD readings (injection Control Pressure Desired - This is what the ECM is requesting or desiring the engine to put out) and the ICP reading (injection Control Pressure - this is what the sensor in the HP oil rail is receiving). When starting the engine the ICPD should be well above 1000 psi until the engine starts. The ICP will tell the ECM what the pressure is and near 700 psi the engine should start and the ICPD will drop down to the 700 PSI range as well as the ICP very close to it. If you see no pressure on the ICP my money would be the ICP sensor has gone bad.
Being that you have an FE bus it is way easier to replace the ICP sensor than the HPOP. It usually takes me 90 minutes or so to change an ICP sensor start to finish. We have had way too many sensors go bad over the years. The HPOP is somewhere in the $1000.00 range (plus core) and the ICP sensor in in the $100.00 range. If the engine still does not start I would get a HP oil gauge set up and check what the actual HP oil pressure is.
We have a spare connector for the IPR valve and use it to test the IPR valve. We connect one wire to a battery source. Then while cranking the engine touch the other wire to ground and see what the ICP pressure reading is on the gauge. If it does not max out 4000 to 7000 psi then you have a HPOP or IPR issue. Do not leave the IPR connected to a battery for very long as this will make the HPOP max out if it is working correctly. Once again it is easier to change an IPR valve than a HPOP. International has special tools to remove the original IPR as well as the new style IPR Valve and they are well worth the money.
Good luck and keep us informed. |
Lead, Follow or get out of the way! Thomas Paine |
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valleybusman
Top Member
USA
808 Posts |
Posted - 04/27/2015 : 09:34:27 AM
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Thank you 57 Fan and anyone else who replied . I just went and looked at the sessions hard to start . My ICP reading was 0 % . I tried carnking and it still read 0 % . Sounds like a ICP ? Thanks again exhaust bounced 0- 2345 lbs . |
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slippert
Top Member
USA
630 Posts |
Posted - 04/27/2015 : 10:18:02 AM
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Your definetly going in the right direction, could be sensor, but more likely you probably have a seal on the HPO rail blown or a HPO pump/IP regulator issue as 57fan says above... you really need to (dead head)test pump and pull valve cover and do air pressure check on oil rail....hopefully you can get online service manuals through IC on command they are very helpful to guide you thru process..
I have pulled valve cover and had someone crank engine for me, then watch for major oil leaks on rail... be it around injector adapters(pucks)or else where...sometimes it is obious other times you have to pressurize with air to see leaks...
Is this an 04 emission egr engine? or an 04 bus with the older version engine? DT? |
Edited by - slippert on 04/27/2015 10:28:55 AM |
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valleybusman
Top Member
USA
808 Posts |
Posted - 04/27/2015 : 10:52:09 AM
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It's a 04 with the egr . |
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valleybusman
Top Member
USA
808 Posts |
Posted - 04/28/2015 : 09:24:05 AM
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This is an update I just pulled the valve cover and turned engine over . I saw no leakage coming from the injectors or rail . Whats next ? I have a ICP and a IPR on order |
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valleybusman
Top Member
USA
808 Posts |
Posted - 04/29/2015 : 07:44:06 AM
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Okay up date I replaced a sensor on the oil rail under valve cover No start . What should I try next ? |
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willism
Advanced Member
United States
250 Posts |
Posted - 04/29/2015 : 09:43:50 AM
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Pull the ipr valve off and look in the end see if there is a screen if there's not the hp oil pump needs to be replaced. The last one i did the screen was there but dented and the hp oil pump fixed that also. |
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second.flood
Top Member
USA
640 Posts |
Posted - 04/29/2015 : 10:46:00 AM
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Do you have engine oil pressure while cranking? |
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valleybusman
Top Member
USA
808 Posts |
Posted - 04/29/2015 : 11:52:27 AM
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yes I have oil pressure when cranking .As far as pulling the IPR I am waiting for a tool to remove it |
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second.flood
Top Member
USA
640 Posts |
Posted - 04/29/2015 : 12:16:23 PM
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Shoot me an email and I can send you the pdf of the no-start form. |
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bfaulkner
Senior Member
168 Posts |
Posted - 04/29/2015 : 12:21:41 PM
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As far as replacing the Hpop just because the IPR screen is gone, I wouldn't. I have replaced many IRP valves with punctured screens and have not had any Hpop problems. I would replace it first and see how it runs. If its still runs bad then replace the Hpop |
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valleybusman
Top Member
USA
808 Posts |
Posted - 04/29/2015 : 3:12:28 PM
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Second flood send it too pastboardmember@gmail.com |
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second.flood
Top Member
USA
640 Posts |
Posted - 04/30/2015 : 04:58:48 AM
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Let me know if you get it. |
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valleybusman
Top Member
USA
808 Posts |
Posted - 04/30/2015 : 08:42:08 AM
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got it thanks |
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valleybusman
Top Member
USA
808 Posts |
Posted - 05/01/2015 : 10:03:40 AM
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Okay I got the IPR out and there is hole in the scree .Sounds like a bad valve ? |
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bfaulkner
Senior Member
168 Posts |
Posted - 05/04/2015 : 10:56:41 AM
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Yes I would at least replace the IPR Valve. There is a possibility that the HPOP has damage from the screen but I would try the IPR and drive it first. |
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valleybusman
Top Member
USA
808 Posts |
Posted - 05/14/2015 : 3:07:14 PM
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Wanted to update everyone who replied .I a pressure gauge rated at up to 6000 psi .Put it on the end of the hose coming out of HPOP .Cranked for 25 seconds .Showed nothing .Needle didn't move Took hose off pump and wondered if oil even left the pump .Pulled off gauge you can see oil on it .So HPOP bad ? |
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bfaulkner
Senior Member
168 Posts |
Posted - 05/15/2015 : 09:08:59 AM
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This is with the new IPR valve Installed? If so then yes the pump is bad. Just to check to make sure there is oil up to the Hpop. Removed the oil temp sensor. it is located in the back of the front cover just above the hpop. if it has oil come out then its removed then you are good and i would say yes, replace the Hpop. if you get a reman unit from an International dealer it comes with a new IPR installed. |
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valleybusman
Top Member
USA
808 Posts |
Posted - 05/15/2015 : 10:18:51 AM
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This was the old HPOP and when I removed temp sensor oil came out.Thanks for the info. |
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