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GMCBlueBird83
Top Member

USA
1478 Posts

Posted - 06/27/2004 :  12:30:43 PM  Show Profile  Visit GMCBlueBird83's Homepage  Send GMCBlueBird83 an AOL message  Send GMCBlueBird83 a Yahoo! Message  Reply with Quote
I recently came across what I considered to be an odd bus and it made me think of a few other questions to ask as well.

First of, the odd bus: it was a 1986 Ward Ford B-7000. Now I've seen plenty of B-700 buses before but never the B-7000. It was a diesel, 8.2 liter Detroit and had the flip up hood like a car would. Would either of these attributes make it a 7000 rather than a 700? I'm thinking not since I know someone with a '85 Thomas Ford with that same engine and hood and his is a B-700, but I just don't know. Here is a link to the picture of the bus in case that helps:
http://www.schoolbusenthusiast.com/june_2004/june_ward_ford_NYRoadeo_bus.jpg

Next up is the International S-Series buses. What are the differences between an S-1700 versus an S-1800 other than the fact the 1800 may be heavier duty. Would the type of engine used be a factor? And was there an S-1600? I seem to recall one S-1600, a mid '80s Ward with a 6.9 liter diesel but it could have been an S-1700. My district on the other hand ran a lot of Internationals with the 9 liter. I think they were S-1700s but they could have been S-1800s. I also rememeber someone saying that they once drove a late '70s International with a CAT 3208. Did International not make their own diesel engines back then?

Now on to the Chevy/GMCs. I know there were plenty of C/60 and 6000s around. Was there ever a C/70 or a 7000? What year did the 8.2 Liter Detroit Diesel first appear? Was this the only diesel to appear in these buses?

And finally, automatic transmissions. Now the Allison AT-545 is the "old Standby", was around for years and while not the best it was an okay unit from what I've heard. There was also a lighter duty version, the AT-540. Could you get the At-540 with any diesel or was that mainly for gassers? Someone also mentioned to me once about another Allison transmission, the AT-450. What years was this offered?

Sorry about all the questions but an inquiring mind wants to know, LOL. Thanks to anyone who can can answer these.

Edited by - GMCBlueBird83 on 06/27/2004 12:33:27 PM

ModMech
Top Member

USA
948 Posts

Posted - 06/27/2004 :  3:16:02 PM  Show Profile  Visit ModMech's Homepage  Reply with Quote
I *think* the B-600s were gasoline, and the 7000s Diesel.... I *think*.

As for Navistar, the 1600/1700/1800 were based on GVW. They have been out of production for 15 years, so forgive me if this is not 100% accurate but: 1600 = 7K front, 16K rear, 1700 = 8K Front, 17K rear, and lastly the 1800 = 9K front, 18K rear. Now, the 1600s and many 1700s were gasoline (V-345/392 or MV 404/440), the Diesel options were 6.9L (then 7.3L), 9.0L, and DT/DTA 360. As I recall, the DT/DTA 466 was only available in the 1800s. Basically this was weight derived, heavier engines required heavier steer axles, ans as such were "heaver" models. I do not believe ANY "S" models has anything but Navister enignes, "Loadstar" models hid however, both Cat and Cummins.

As for GM, I believe they are like Ford, C-50/60/70 was gasoline, and 5000/6000/7000 were diesel power.

The 8.2L was availabe in a bus as early as 1983 (Ford) and maybe sooner. The earliest GM chassis 8.2L I've seen was 1985.

On Allisons, The "AT 545" is the Industry Standard, and from the looks of things right now, will continue to be for years to come (although they are no longer produced). They are VERY good units, their weak points are the Torque Converters and poor maintence (overheating). The MT 643 is the next most common AT in medium trucks, and is virtually industructable, but they are also about a $3000 premium over a 545, so not worth it IMO. The 540s were the first ATs intended for medium gasoline engines, as I understand it, the 545 was the "new" upgraded model capeable of handeling the Tq a medium displacement diesel would produce.

I have never heard of an "AT-450".

If you want customer service, you NEED an International!
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eckbird
Active Member

USA
46 Posts

Posted - 06/28/2004 :  08:59:08 AM  Show Profile  Send eckbird a Yahoo! Message  Reply with Quote
FALSE:
The 8.2L was availabe in a bus as early as 1983 (Ford) and maybe sooner. The earliest GM chassis 8.2L I've seen was 1985.

Detroit built this engine (prototype) in 1981 it was the first 4 cycle diesel engine made by most companies (except cummins) Cat made the 3208 to compete with the 8.2 fuel pincher They were a GM Alison Detroit company so it would make since that GM/Chevy were first to have them I have sen them in Blue Birds with a C60 Chassis as old as 1982(production date late year) Although: the 8.2 was the only diesel engine I know to be used in every bus chassis of it's time, Cat never made it to the Int.'s in later 80's and the detroit was used in thomas, Bird, GM/Chevy, ford, International, Superior, Crown, and Carpenter. They are a great little engine but are a throw away, they are designed not to be rebuilt no pistion sleeves or block replacement parts, they are a strong engine, but smoke like a bug fogger. They hae the good rep of the old 2stroke of being high wound (rpms)(if it was a manual you needed a 2 speed axle to have any power on the hills) And yes the 8.2L was the only diesel for GM/Chevy until the custom B7 in 1993 with the standard cummins cat. (due to productin stop of 8.2)(as far as I know cummins and the cat 3208 never made it to them)
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BusBoy 1
Advanced Member

USA
212 Posts

Posted - 06/28/2004 :  10:32:05 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
We had a 1982 ford bluebird with the 8.2L detroit also a 1983 chevrolet thomas and a 1985 chevrolet wayne body all having 8.2 detroits. Loved listening to them engines scream.
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JC Theriault
Top Member

Canada
1326 Posts

Posted - 06/28/2004 :  12:59:41 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
I drove an old 1979 Ford/Thomas that had an 8.2 in it. Not sure which screamed louder - the engine or the automatic transmission!
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eckbird
Active Member

USA
46 Posts

Posted - 06/28/2004 :  2:27:00 PM  Show Profile  Send eckbird a Yahoo! Message  Reply with Quote
My q JC is: was it the orig engine? or a rebuild add in later?
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JC Theriault
Top Member

Canada
1326 Posts

Posted - 06/28/2004 :  3:55:24 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
The bus was an ex-Charterways and was one of the first diesels bought. At that time the school contractor in my city had bought a fleet of 40ish Charterways buses and all were 78 & 79 Fords with only a couple of the 79's being diesels.

I've worked for a couple of fleets that had Charterways Ford buses in their lineups and most anything late '79 & up was the 8.2 with automatics, air brakes, Thomas bodies and not a bit of heat to be found during city driving :)

I believe there is still a picture show the overflowing bus sales yard at Autobus Thomas in Drummondville Quebec that shows all the buses they bought for resale when Charterways was upgrading their fleet in 1986 or so. This would have included those early diesels.
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ModMech
Top Member

USA
948 Posts

Posted - 06/29/2004 :  08:44:40 AM  Show Profile  Visit ModMech's Homepage  Reply with Quote
quote:
FALSE:
The 8.2L was availabe in a bus as early as 1983 (Ford) and maybe sooner. The earliest GM chassis 8.2L I've seen was 1985.


No, that's TRUE. I said, "maybe sooner", and "that I've seen". We had '83 Fords w/ the 8.2L, and '85 GMs with it. I just did not know FOR SURE, when GM and Ford first offered it.

Also, the 8.2L was NEVER offered in a Navistar (International) chassis, or from what I have read a Thomas, or Blue Bird. Ford/GM chassis with a Thomas or BB BODY, yes. I think eckbird is confusing BODY and CHASSIS.

The 8.2L is also not "high wound", anymoreso than a 6.9L/7.3L all of which will turn 3200-3300 RPM. The 8.2L was a decent CHEAP engine that required frequent headgasket changes to keep it on the road. They did follow in the footsteps of the 2-strokes in one very significant manner, they LEAKED.

If I NEVER see one again, it will still be too soon.

If you want customer service, you NEED an International!
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eckbird
Active Member

USA
46 Posts

Posted - 06/29/2004 :  10:34:00 AM  Show Profile  Send eckbird a Yahoo! Message  Reply with Quote
No I am not confused witha anything,
The Type D models mostly RE had the option for the cat 3208, Detroit 8.2L, or the cummins in some model years, Blue Bird did have the 8.2 in their D models and thomas also offered them, Internationl did market the detroit but it was very rare to be seen, it was a custom order, therfore you wouldn't read about them, they ran these rarely seen in the 81-83 models. They were a good engine for their applications but couldn't be depend on for much demand over that. The 8.2L as well as All detroit including the series 60 leaked oil. And yes they did turn about the same RPM but were NOT able to maintain it very well w/out the 2 speed axle assistance. They could be truned up easy but if done wrong ran away easy also. They all seem to have a distinct lope in the idle of about 100-150 RPM that can be fixed but gave then a distinct sound But i am not confused on this engine.
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Mechan1c
Top Member

USA
702 Posts

Posted - 06/29/2004 :  12:30:02 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
"Detroit built this engine (prototype) in 1981 it was the first 4 cycle diesel engine made by most companies (except cummins) Cat made the 3208 to compete with the 8.2 fuel pincher"

yuk yuk! LMAO. All those 1100's in Gilligs must have been a figment of my imagination.
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GMCBlueBird83
Top Member

USA
1478 Posts

Posted - 06/29/2004 :  2:22:24 PM  Show Profile  Visit GMCBlueBird83's Homepage  Send GMCBlueBird83 an AOL message  Send GMCBlueBird83 a Yahoo! Message  Reply with Quote
I know for a fact that our 1983 GMC 6000 Blue Birds did have the 8.2 liter Detroit Diesel. The reason I asked is that somebody submitted a '70s Superior Chevy C/60 picture for use on my site and he listed it as having the 8.2. I was never sure when those first became available but it may have been the late '70s. Thank you to all who have responded so far.
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JC Theriault
Top Member

Canada
1326 Posts

Posted - 06/29/2004 :  8:27:55 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
I'm not sure about needing a two-speed axle to give an 8.2 some speed. I drove an 86 Ford with the 8.2, 5sp manual and fully loaded with 48 adult passengers on charters one summer. I'd leave everyone behind on take off and hills. She'd go and go.

Enjoyed that as my school route bus for 2 years. Funny how no one else wanted to drive the old thing and everyone thought I was crazy for taking it off the spare list. Only complaint was that the throttle knob when pulled out to warm up would sometimes allow the engine to runaway so I learned not to get far away from it.
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ModMech
Top Member

USA
948 Posts

Posted - 06/29/2004 :  10:54:54 PM  Show Profile  Visit ModMech's Homepage  Reply with Quote
Not one of our 23 8.2L equipped 71/78 pass buses had a two speed rear. Granted, 16 had autos.

If you want customer service, you NEED an International!
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Thomas Ford 85-16
Top Member

USA
4170 Posts

Posted - 06/30/2004 :  08:20:55 AM  Show Profile  Visit Thomas Ford 85-16's Homepage  Send Thomas Ford 85-16 an AOL message  Reply with Quote
I have a 1985 8.2L DDA in my Ford/Thomas B700 (or would it be B7000 now? I'm stil not clear on that). It seems to support about everything said here. I certainly hope it's not a throw-away engine, since I would like to rebuild it at one point if needed. But yes, it is a smoke belcher and it certainly marks its territory wherever you park it. It gives good heat, though. It runs very well but doesn't have a loped idle. It's interesting that was mentioned, though. Our district's band bus, twin to mine before they were retired from school service, has a loped idle and it's very observant just from the sound. Mine, though, stays perfectly at 500-700 (depending on the alternator load and the warmth). What might dictate this difference?

I am pretty sure that the 8.2 was offered in Type D models of buses from various manufacturers. We had two 1985 Saf-T-Liner ERs that I know had 8.2s in them. We also had three or four 1985 All American REs, and I wouldn't be surprised if they had 8.2s as well.

Mike's Bus Yard - http://buses.zwebpages.com - Since 1999
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Thomas Ford 85-16
Top Member

USA
4170 Posts

Posted - 07/02/2004 :  1:27:05 PM  Show Profile  Visit Thomas Ford 85-16's Homepage  Send Thomas Ford 85-16 an AOL message  Reply with Quote
Lee, I checked in my manuals about this B-700 vs. B-7000 issue. I can't see much of a difference at all! On the Ford sticker on the firewall in the Ford chassis, there will be a little column labelled "type." There can be three codes for a B-700 or B-7000. B70, J74, and J70. B70 is described as a B-700 chassis and cowl, with gasoline engine. J70 is described as a B-7000 chassis and cowl, with a diesel engine. J74 is described as a B-700 chassis and cowl with an 8.2L DDA. That leads me to believe that the B-7000 is then the one with the CAT 3208? I don't know why the chassis model would change with that difference. Perhaps the B-7000 could be any diesel engine, but with heavier duty axles. I can't imagine that the GVWR or heavier duty axles would change that either, though, because the GVWRs go up to the same level for each model. Any input? Lee, maybe you can check under the hood of that bus the next time you go to that roadeo. Or whoever else might see the bus sometime. I wonder if that bus was misbranded, or really is a B-7000. If so, I'd be interested in finding out. I'm glad to knwo taht m y bus is a B-700, though. An extra zero would've been neat but now i know for sure, hehe.


Mike's Bus Yard - http://buses.zwebpages.com - Since 1999

Edited by - Thomas Ford 85-16 on 07/02/2004 1:30:13 PM
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RD9000
Senior Member

72 Posts

Posted - 09/20/2012 :  2:55:00 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Ford had some inconsistencies in their model names and numbers at times. The additional zero on B-700 versus B-7000 did indicated a diesel engine. I believe they began to get away from that in the late 80's when diesel engines became almost standard. This practice was also used in their larger trucks including their cabover models. I have an '82 Ford 8000 cabover with a 3208 Cat. At some points, the cabovers were designated with a C-______. Mine is not.
I have a couple old Uhauls that are Internationals, they are all S-1600's with the 7.3 non-turbo diesel and 5-speed Spicer transmissions. They are low-pro's.
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Cal Mc
Advanced Member

252 Posts

Posted - 10/01/2012 :  9:31:25 PM  Show Profile  Visit Cal Mc's Homepage  Reply with Quote
We had a 1981 GM 7000 truck with a 427 and AT545, single axle. I have also seen the same thing in a tandem axle.
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IBTMech
Top Member

USA
973 Posts

Posted - 10/09/2012 :  5:39:43 PM  Show Profile  Visit IBTMech's Homepage  Reply with Quote
Wow, talk about reviving an old thread........

If it doesn't fit, FORCE it.
If it breaks, well, it needed replacing anyway.
Pullin' wrenches for 45 years.
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