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goosedump
New Member
6 Posts |
 Posted - 03/22/2002 : 8:49:46 PM
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Hi, I'm doing a business proposal for a school project. It would be greatly appreciated if I could get some answers from some experts. First of all my business proposal, to give you an idea of what is needed.
My business proposal is one that brings university students around the Waterloo Ontario Canada area for groceries and such. It also provides services to bring students back to Toronto on a weekend basis.
I am fairly new to the topic of buses. What I was thinking of was a schoolbus that could carry around 50 people with a price of < $100,000. I need to do a cost-profit analysis so I need to keep costs down. The following answers would be appreciated.
1) What kind of bus would suite my business proposal?
2) What are some brand names (for buses) are high quality and what are low quality?
3) What is the lifetime of a bus depending on brand, quality, milage?
4) What are reasonable prices? What are high, what are low?
5) Are there any "must see" web-pages regarding the subject?
6) Is it reasonable to assume that high quality buses have a longer life time?
Thank you very much!
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Rich
Top Member
United States
5768 Posts |
Posted - 03/22/2002 : 9:25:36 PM
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Welcome to SBF Goosedump (lol)  ,
You have many excellent questions that can easily be answered by many of my fellow SBF members.
quote:
1) What kind of bus would suite my business proposal?
Well, really anything, such as a conventional bus (with a chassis [cowl]), or a Type-D bus (flat nosed, or as some folks say "flat front.") I would reccommend a Type-D Rear Engine, due to optimal performance, and a long life span. A 65-Passenger bus would be perfect.
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2) What are some brand names (for buses) are high quality and what are low quality?
Blue Bird --> High Quality
Thomas Built Buses --> High Quality
International Buses --> High Quality
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3) What is the lifetime of a bus depending on brand, quality, milage?
All three buses above will last a LONG time, as long as they are taken care of. All are excellent quality buses, and are worth a look. Mileage is no problem, as long as taken care of. Many buses are retired at 200,000 miles-250,000 miles.
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4) What are reasonable prices? What are high, what are low?
To be honestm, pricing depends a lot on specifications. However, you should be able to get a Type D with good stuff for oh, say, $60,000. However, Type C's are usually less, by $10,000-$5,000. Once again, specs effect the price a lot.
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5) Are there any "must see" web-pages regarding the subject?
God, of course there are!
www.thomasbus.com
www.blue-bird.com
www.wardbuses.com
quote:
6) Is it reasonable to assume that high quality buses have a longer life time?
Yes, it's extremely reasonable. High quality buses are built to last!!! As long as taken care of, school buses can last a LONG time!
I hoped this helped you, and GOOD LUCK! If you have any more questions, e-mail me: rls1400@aol.com
I advise going to the site listed in my signature, go to every school bus manufacturer, and request a brochure, which they will be happy to give you. Also, check out www.collinsbus.com for 30-passenger buses, if you change your mind on capacity.
"Unwrap the Schoolbus Within You!"
"Schoolbuses... the SAFEST Form of Transportation!"
Please visit my schoolbus webpage:
http://museummiddle.tripod.com
&/or:
www.schoolbuslinks.cjb.net
Edited by - bluebird4ever on 03/22/2002 9:29:57 PM |
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cowlitzcoach
Advanced Member
USA
325 Posts |
Posted - 03/23/2002 : 04:59:13 AM
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I am not sure you really want to be looking at school buses for your project. When was the last time you rode a long distance in a standard school bus seat? In addition, since you won't be doing to/from school routes I don't think you want your bus to be yellow with black stripes.
Each of the three large school bus manufacturers manufacture commercial versions of their buses. For that matter, the small bus manufacturers make some pretty nice commercial versions of their school buses as well.
Whatever you choose to purchase, since you intend to do a lot of highway work, you need to make sure you spe'c your bus with highway gearing. Since most school buses spend the majority of their service lives at less than 35 MPH they usually have no need to be able to highway speed.
Luggage compartments can become rather expensive but if you are planning on transporting people from school to home or take groups on the road some place, you will need to have some space for luggage. Most buses are also able to be ordered with overhead racks for small items like purses and day packs.
As to what size bus you need, it all depends upon what you intend to do with the bus and where you intend to drive it. The shorter the wheelbase the easier it is to get around a corner. The longer the wheelbase the smoother the ride becomes. An 11-row Type 'C' bus will seat 44 adults comfortably and the bus will be about 35' long, plus or minus a few inches. A 12-row Type 'D' bus will seat 48 adults comfortably and the bus will be about 35' long.
Regardless of who makes the bus, given reasonable care, driven reasonably, and spe'c'ed properly, a modern bus is capable of 100K miles with little more than regular PM. Most will still see 250K without major repairs if the bus is well cared for all the time. The biggest problem you will have to deal with where you live will be problems with body rust.
Good luck and let us know how your project works out.
Mark O.
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Brian M. Babcock
Advanced Member
USA
278 Posts |
Posted - 03/23/2002 : 09:57:04 AM
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goosedump (what kind of name is that?:),
Your idea sounds very interesting. I am an industrial engineering and business administration student in Toledo, Ohio where I have also been a shuttle bus driver for our university's transit system for the past five years. Last year I did a complete operational analysis of our system which in which I recommended changes that will be applied in August of this year. I am also currently doing a business plan for a school bus contracting operation for an entrepreneurship class that I am taking. I don't know that I would consider myself an expert (there are people on this forum with considerably more industry experience than I have) but I will try to answer some of your questions.
quote:
1) What kind of bus would suite my business proposal?
We currently use mostly Blue Bird All American's and TC2000's for our bread and butter work. These are basically school buses but they have been equipped with some options to make them suitable for our unique situation such as slider windows and standee rails. Our buses which do our on campus work (connect parking lots and stuff) are a little nicer and equipped somewhat differently. We also have a few odd-balls in the fleet. Here are some pictures of our buses.
http://www.geocities.com/montell305/_553front.jpg
http://www.geocities.com/montell305/_553inside2.jpg
http://www.geocities.com/montell305/_130.jpg
http://www.geocities.com/montell305/_130inside.jpg
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2) What are some brand names (for buses) are high quality and what are low quality?
School buses are just like cars, some peoiple are Blue Bird people, some Thomas people, and some AmTran people. Basically they all use practically the same componets underneath and most are of high quality. Do stay away from Carpenter transits built after the late 1980's (conventionals are ok)as they are pretty troublesome. Also, you probally want to stay away from any body company which is no longer in business (Wayne, Superior, Carpenter)so that you can still find body parts in the future.
{I'll continue this in the next post, it's getting long} 
http://montell305.tripod.com
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Brian M. Babcock
Advanced Member
USA
278 Posts |
Posted - 03/23/2002 : 10:25:32 AM
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quote:
3) What is the lifetime of a bus depending on brand, quality, mileage?
Welp, there are a lot of factors which play into that question. The number one thing in determining bus life is preventative maintenance. Some of our buses are 16 years old with close to 350,000 miles on them and we continue to use them 17 hours per day. A transit bus (city bus) will give you a longer life span but will also be more expensive to maintain. A transit bus will also cost about $250,000 vs. $90,000 for a school type bus with extra options. Basically don't buy a bus with allot of unnecessary features that you don't need. A simple, properly equipped bus is the best approach. Be sure to match your engine/trans/rear end combo to the type of environment in which you will be using the bus. An underpowered engine matched to the wrong transmission will cause you a bunch of headaches down the road. Since our buses spend most of their time working in the city, but do also take frequent road trips, we usually spec. around a 5.10 or 5.29 rear end with 230 hp. engine and MT643 trans. We do have other combinations but this seem to work the best. We operate on mostly flat land and max highway speed is 65 mph (55 for buses). Also, if you operate on rough roads, or with large loads, you will need to spec. a heavy duty suspension for your bus. I would also spec. nicer seats than what we use. I would spec. what the industry calls an activity seat. This will offer your passengers a more comfortable seat with adequate hip room.
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4) What are reasonable prices? What are high, what are low?
Again, there is allot of variation. A used older conventional school bus in great shape can often be had for as low as $1,500. A new school bus can run between $60,000 for a conventional to slightly better than $110,000 for a well outfitted transit style school bus. Our shuttle type buses I believe would run about $156,000 today and a true transit bus is about $250,000. Buy all used buses carefully. You can get a good used bus cheap, and possibly even retro fit it to exactly meet your needs, but you need to be careful with what you buy. Many are just someone else's problem. My old boss once said, "There's no such thing as a used bus, just a used up bus". I don't believe that but the wrong used bus will cost you a lot of $$$'s.
{one more post}
http://montell305.tripod.com
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Brian M. Babcock
Advanced Member
USA
278 Posts |
Posted - 03/23/2002 : 10:36:35 AM
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5) Are there any "must see" web-pages regarding the subject?
The web page for our service is: http://www.transit.utoledo.edu
I would also look at the school bus fleet links page for more helpful links: http://www.schoolbusfleet.com/links.cfm
I also have a little fan web page that I created with bus pictures on it. It probably will not give you any useable information but it may be able to show you some of the different types of buses that are out there. http://montell305.tripod.com
quote:
6) Is it reasonable to assume that high quality buses have a longer life time?
Yes, but so much of bus quality is actually how you spec. the bus. Buses are not like cars in that they are all built the same. Two identical looking buses may be completely different underneath in terms of what components were used to construct the bus. A properly specd. bus combined with the best in preventative maintenance will give you MANY years of faithful service at a low cost.
I also echo all of the statements that Mark (cowlitz coach) made above. The busing industry is a considerably more intricate and detail driven industry than it appears on the surface. Unfortunately, this fact is lost on most of the general population. I wish you the best of luck on your proposal. If you have any further questions, don't hesitate to ask.
-Brian
http://montell305.tripod.com
Edited by - Brian M. Babcock on 03/23/2002 10:41:25 AM
Edited by - Brian M. Babcock on 03/23/2002 10:42:42 AM |
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B. Busguy33
Top Member
USA
3444 Posts |
Posted - 03/23/2002 : 11:42:20 AM
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Welcome to the SBF Forums! You have certainly come to the right place with your questions.
Most of the advice that has been given to you so far has been very good. Let me give you my input in regards to your questions.
quote:
1) What kind of bus would suite my business proposal?
If you want to transport 50 adults comfortably (13 rows of seats on each side @ 2 people per seat = 52 bus capacity for adult passengers transported), I would go with a transit-style bus with the engine in the back (also known as an "RE"). These buses offer excellent visibility, a good turning radius, and many years of dedicated service. As has already been pointed out, you must spec the bus right for its use, and take good care of it. If you don't spec it out right or take good care of it, it may not provide as many years of dedicated service as it should.
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2) What are some brand names (for buses) are high quality and what are low quality?
Well, as I stated above, your best choice (in my opinion) would be to go with a transit-style RE bus. As Cowlitzcoach (Mark) mentioned above, keep in mind, the "Big Three" manufacturers make commercial products based on their school bus platform. You may want to consider those products for your needs.
To start, you may want to visit the following pages for the following list of buses that I have written here. You can get an International RE ( www.wardbuses.com ), a Thomas Saf-T-Liner ER/HD (Transit-Liner is the commercial version of this school bus product -- www.thomasbus.com ), and a Blue Bird All-American RE ( www.blue-bird.com ). These are the prominent three RE transit-style buses made today offered by three outstanding manufacturers.
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3) What is the lifetime of a bus depending on brand, quality, milage?
In my opinion, brand really has nothing to do with it. It is how you spec and take care of the bus. I believe, if you get an RE, that type of bus should last you about 15 years or about 275k+ miles, if it is spec'd right and taken care of. The RE's are the most heavy-duty school buses you can buy, and also the most expensive. Keep in mind, your climate, weather, and geographic location are also some factors to consider in how long your bus will last. For example, an area that has a lot of snow and where a lot of road salt is used will deteriorate a school bus body faster than a region that does not experience any snow or road salt on the roads.
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4) What are reasonable prices? What are high, what are low?
For the most basic spec'd out RE bus, I would expect to pay about $65,000 for it. But, a very nicely equipped RE bus, expect to pay anywhere between $75,000 - $90,000+ for a bus like that.
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5) Are there any "must see" web-pages regarding the subject?
The webpages for the manufacturers I described are listed above. You may want to check out www.schoolbusfleet.com and go to their links page for more useful information. Some members on here also put links to their pages in their signatures. You may want to check out some of those links to look at pictures of buses to get an idea of what they look like.
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6) Is it reasonable to assume that high quality buses have a longer life time?
Again, how you spec and take care of the bus will be important determining factors, as well as your climate, weather, and geographical regions. In my personal opinion, if a bus is spec'd out right, it will be a quality product. A "high quality" bus is for the most part a matter of personal opinion and what kind of equipment is spec'd out on it, as pointed out in previous posts. Some people swear by their Thomas buses, some Blue Birds, and some Internationals. Usually, a person's personal preference is based on their own experiences with a particular bus. Some people may like Thomas because they have had good experiences with them, and bad experiences with other manufacturers. The same holds true for International and Blue Bird buses.
I personally like all three and think that all three manufacturers make good products. Each of the manufacturers has their own fair share of problems, you can't escape that. But, if you take the time to look at what is available to you, chances are you will build a bus to best meet your needs, and that bus will provide you with long-lasting dependable service for many years to come.
__________________________________________
-Bob
(a.k.a. B. Busguy33)
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B. Busguy33
Top Member
USA
3444 Posts |
Posted - 03/23/2002 : 1:11:37 PM
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quote:
I need to do a cost-profit analysis so I need to keep costs down.
Since you want to do a "cost-profit analysis" you want to consider EVERYTHING around buying a school bus, meaning insurance, registration, maintenance, parking facility, etc., etc.
Before you even think about buying a bus, you should consider who will be driving it, where it will be parked, and where/who will maintain it. Make sure the driver of the bus is fully certified to drive the bus and that his/her certificication follows all of the laws, rules, regulations, and guidelines set forth by your location. I assume you will not be training the driver yourself. It sounds like you either have a driver lined up to drive the bus, or you would be hiring a driver with the full credentials. Criminal and driving background checks and drug testing are important factors to consider.
I understand your project mainly revolves around buying a school bus. But, there are other costs associated with buying a school bus that you may want to mention in your project. You will need to determine annual insurance costs, maintanence costs, and costs to park the bus at a certain location (if any costs would apply to that). You also need to find someone who will maintain the bus. Finally, you must find an insurance provider.
These things are pretty much the same as owning a car. Except, owning a bus can be more expensive and more complex than owning a car. Maintenance with school buses are different than cars. On a school bus, there are many more components and equipment to maintain than in a car, and also more expensive.
If you follow a strict maintanence schedule and fix problems right when they start, or better yet, prevent problems from occurring --which is a part of Preventive Maintenance (PM) schedule -- then you can be sure that you will save money in the long run in all aspects of owning and running the bus.
Just some thoughts for you to consider besides buying the school bus itself.
__________________________________________
-Bob
(a.k.a. B. Busguy33)
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wagonmaster
Top Member
USA
2298 Posts |
Posted - 03/23/2002 : 4:18:15 PM
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The largest Rear engine type school buses seat 84 pupils and thats 3 to a seat. Knock off 1/3 for adult seating and that leaves you seating for 56. Stretch out those seats by removing those not needed (3) and give everyone some additional leg room. Add the largest engine you can (ISC Cummins or DT530 International) and a transit type A/C , such as the roof mount Sutrak, air ride suspension, air operated entrance door, and a high back air operated drivers seat and you have the beginning of a coach that will do what you want it to. (Brad is correct, don't paint it yellow)
Good luck with your project.
Joe
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cowlitzcoach
Advanced Member
USA
325 Posts |
Posted - 03/24/2002 : 06:39:56 AM
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Bob (B. Busguy33) touched on some subjects you need to consider before you start operating a bus.
If you are not a public agency of some sort you will need operating authority through your state and federal government before you can transport anyone. Even if you are only transporting your own people and not doing anything for hire, you will need some operationg authorities.
Don't figure on less than 60 days to receive your operating authorities either. If you are planning on being in business on September 1, 2002 you had better have started your paperwork. Otherwise you may not have everything completed by September.
Your state and federal law will dictate what sort of insurance will be required. Depend upon the fact bus insurance is hard to find and very $$$$$$$$$$$$!
Even if you only have one driver you will be required to have a pre-employment and random drug testing policy.
All of your employee and maintenance records will be subject to inspection at any time. The necessity of proper record keeping can't be stressed enough.
You will have to certify your maintenance staff or the facility in which your vehicle is serviced is qualified to do the work that is required.
Thirty years ago you could purchase a bus and go into business with just the purchase of a bus. Today, it is not quite as easy.
Good luck.
Mark O.
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Brian M. Babcock
Advanced Member
USA
278 Posts |
Posted - 03/24/2002 : 3:54:00 PM
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We have paid a considerable attention to purchasing and the operation of the bus but I would also like to point out the importance of proper scheduling and routing to the success of the operation. We were able to realize a considerable cost savings simply by coordinating the arrival times of the buses and eliminating the non-value added miles on the bus routes. In turn we were able to add service to areas of the city which show more demand and increase the frequency of service where it was needed. These changes have actually enhanced service that the passengers will receive while reducing the departments cost of operation. It also allowed us to reduce the number of buses that we have on the road at any one time by 30% over the current system. Since it appears that you will be operating only one bus this scheduling is not as difficult as you will not be requiring transfers or having to coordinate bus arrival times. With each successive bus that you add to the system this process becomes more complicated. The golden rule will become this:a bus that is not moving, is not making you any money. Therefore keep all of your buses moving and hence generating revenue as much as possible. Do not keep a bunch of unnecessary spare buses around, and if a route can be picked up by a bus that is already in the system without impeding service, do so.
-Brian
http://montell305.tripod.com
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need info for school project (please help)
