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1983ChevroletWayne
Senior Member

Canada
160 Posts

Posted - 12/18/2012 :  2:17:25 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Hey guys,

One of my co-workers is suffering from a bus blowing cool air for heat. (2008 IC/CE DT365) The mechanics agreed that there was considerable loss of heat, and took the system around the driver's area apart.

Both valves under the hood are open (and were open at the time), along with the valve by your left foot behind the rubber flap. Bus is showing 190 degrees, and all controls are set for heat.

The mechanics took apart the lower area of the driver's compartment (underneat the control panel), and found a faulty valve in the coolant system. It's the plastic selector valve. It had broken internally, and was replaced with a new one. The boost pump was also replaced with a new one.

The bus was taken for a good highway test drive, and withing minutes was blowing nice hot air from the vents.

Now (2 days later) the bus is blowing cool air again, and the driver is freezing.

The bus is running around 190 degrees but blowing cool air....Any ideas or familiar issues?

We are stumped!


Edited by - 1983ChevroletWayne on 01/17/2013 4:50:28 PM

Mechan1c
Top Member

USA
663 Posts

Posted - 12/18/2012 :  2:37:27 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
I'd certainly check both sides of the valve and pump again and see if I could figure out where the heat comes to a halt. I have a bunch of CE's and BE's and they usually have all kinds of heat.
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Bassman
Top Member

USA
505 Posts

Posted - 12/19/2012 :  03:01:32 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Something slipped where the cable is attached to the new valve I'll bet.
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bwest
Administrator

United States
2194 Posts

Posted - 12/19/2012 :  09:07:28 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Bassman

Something slipped where the cable is attached to the new valve I'll bet.



Or parts to the old, faulty, valve have lodged in the hose down stream.

Bryan
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rcbusman
New Member

5 Posts

Posted - 12/19/2012 :  12:35:33 PM  Show Profile  Visit rcbusman's Homepage  Reply with Quote
they made a bunch of those valves backwards, if you turn the heat selector knob to cold it will blow hot. been there
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1983ChevroletWayne
Senior Member

Canada
160 Posts

Posted - 12/19/2012 :  1:41:01 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Thanks very much for the suggestions guys. I will pass the info along!

Formerly "83ChevroletWayne"



Pic courtesy of: "schoolbusdriver.org"
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57fan
Senior Member

United States
56 Posts

Posted - 12/21/2012 :  5:12:46 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
I have seen Poly caps left on the engine with the coolant hoses installed over them. It was deformed and some coolant got around it but never got warm till we took it out. Found it 3 years after we got the bus from IC. Also make sure your boost pump is plumed correctly. Seen them plumed backwards from IC as well. We make the hot coolant go to the defrosters first then to the drivers heater and rear of the bus.

Lead, Follow or get out of the way!
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bdhutier
New Member

2 Posts

Posted - 12/26/2012 :  08:38:48 AM  Show Profile  Visit bdhutier's Homepage  Reply with Quote
Haven't had any valve issues, but we have had several booster pumps start leaking, or quit pumping. Rather than drop $300 on a new one, we just bypassed the booster all-together, relying on convection and the engine water pump. Our drivers report good heat, so we're happy!
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bwest
Administrator

United States
2194 Posts

Posted - 12/26/2012 :  08:52:28 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by bdhutier

Haven't had any valve issues, but we have had several booster pumps start leaking, or quit pumping. Rather than drop $300 on a new one, we just bypassed the booster all-together, relying on convection and the engine water pump. Our drivers report good heat, so we're happy!


I have had a lot of trouble with the pumps leaking lately. I have some that are 10 years old and don't leak. What's up with that!

You should really take a look at where your buying your pumps. I pay no more than $125 for mine.

Bryan
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raytobe
Advanced Member

USA
277 Posts

Posted - 12/26/2012 :  12:01:46 PM  Show Profile  Visit raytobe's Homepage  Reply with Quote
Want to see something interesting? Take one of the pumps apart that has been in service for awhile and look at what the extended life antifreeze does to the vanes of the pump. Eats em up.
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05ICCE
Senior Member

USA
64 Posts

Posted - 12/30/2012 :  5:32:38 PM  Show Profile  Visit 05ICCE's Homepage  Reply with Quote
We have bypassed the booster pumps on our 99 Bluebird, 04,05 and 06 ic's. Never have needed them as all of these buses produce more heat than needed. We are located in northern Va) The plastic valve of which you speak has a high failure rate on our 06 VT 365. Since new it has had 5 valves. I would not be surprised if the valve failed in just one day.

Mr. Scott, "because he drives a COOL BUS"
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wjbusguy
Active Member

United States
23 Posts

Posted - 01/01/2013 :  1:25:03 PM  Show Profile  Visit wjbusguy's Homepage  Reply with Quote
I had the cable controlled heater valve on an 06, vt365 motored IC bus come apart inside and couldnt get any coolant through it. When I decided that was the spot where I was restricted and took the valve off, I was shocked at how small the passageway through the valve was. It seems stupid to waste money using 1 inch hoses and fittings on a heater system that only had one hole about half the size of a pencil. I did find out later though that I had the wrong valve in the bus from the factory as the one I was supposed to have actually has 2 holes in it instead of one. It heats better than it ever has but it still looks like it is restricted to me. I think they restrict the heater flow some to help keep the engine up to temp easier, probably for emissions. I guess their thinking is emissions are more important than our children's comfort on a 15 below zero morning. Does Bluebird or Thomas have restrictions in their heater systems?
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Brad Barker
Administrator

USA
832 Posts

Posted - 01/04/2013 :  4:50:16 PM  Show Profile  Visit Brad Barker's Homepage  Click to see Brad Barker's MSN Messenger address  Reply with Quote
IC has a new booster pump for the CE and RE. It's not cheap. One problem they say with the pump is that they are not intended to run dry. The coolant acts as a lubricant and coolant to the seals and housing. Make sure when you replace the pump, work on cooling system or drain and fill cooling system that the pump stays unplugged until after the engine has run for a bit and is completely full of coolant with heater valves open. The you can plug the pump in and let er' run. Another problem with IC pumps is they will run backwards if the wires are reversed in the connector. If you by an IC replacement pump they will come with a letter stating this.

Brad A. Barker
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1983ChevroletWayne
Senior Member

Canada
160 Posts

Posted - 01/09/2013 :  3:08:51 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Brad Barker

IC has a new booster pump for the CE and RE. It's not cheap. One problem they say with the pump is that they are not intended to run dry. The coolant acts as a lubricant and coolant to the seals and housing. Make sure when you replace the pump, work on cooling system or drain and fill cooling system that the pump stays unplugged until after the engine has run for a bit and is completely full of coolant with heater valves open. The you can plug the pump in and let er' run. Another problem with IC pumps is they will run backwards if the wires are reversed in the connector. If you by an IC replacement pump they will come with a letter stating this.



Brad, Thanks for the info. The boys at the shop added this upgraded HD booster pump to the bus today. What a difference in the heat delivery! It cost roughly around $1000, but it solved the issue.

It's called a "CE EMP Circulation Pump Kit" (Part# 1370002150).

http://www.emp-corp.com/site-layout/gfx/products/WP29/product-views/WP29-electric-water-pump-angle.gif


Formerly "83ChevroletWayne"



Pic courtesy of: "schoolbusdriver.org"
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Fastback
Top Member

908 Posts

Posted - 01/10/2013 :  04:49:36 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Brad Barker

IC has a new booster pump for the CE and RE. It's not cheap.




Please elaborate on this new pump. Where does it mount? What are its advantages over the prior less costly pump?

Why yes, the ORIGinal CHARGER is a Fastback
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mech19
New Member

6 Posts

Posted - 01/10/2013 :  05:37:56 AM  Show Profile  Visit mech19's Homepage  Reply with Quote
I cannot find one advantage to ANY heater booster pump in a system without an external heater, such as a Webasto. Why would such a system use 1" diameter hose and plumb in a 3/8" "booster" pump??? Yes, the housing around the impeller measures 3/8". Install a winter front if applicable, keep the heater core filters installed, and cleaned, and keep the engine rpm's above idle when parked. In fact, why hasn't any school bus manufacturer designed a forced air heater system with no danger of spraying hot coolant on passengers and drivers, nuisance leaks inside bus, etc. Dedicate one main heater core for the heat source and use duct work to transfer warm air through the interior--similar to the houses we live in. These minimally effective heating methods inside the school buses today need a complete redesign and need to get with the modern era of HVAC. Stop using coolant inside the passenger comprtments. JMO.
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78fordwayne
Top Member

USA
2868 Posts

Posted - 01/10/2013 :  07:32:49 AM  Show Profile  Visit 78fordwayne's Homepage  Send 78fordwayne an AOL message  Send 78fordwayne a Yahoo! Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by mech19

Dedicate one main heater core for the heat source and use duct work to transfer warm air through the interior--similar to the houses we live in. These minimally effective heating methods inside the school buses today need a complete redesign and need to get with the modern era of HVAC. Stop using coolant inside the passenger comprtments. JMO.


Because by the time the hot air gets to the end of the duct work, it won't be as hot.
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Trailboss
Senior Member

United States
146 Posts

Posted - 01/10/2013 :  08:03:53 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Your house doesn't set over night in sub freezing temps without the heater running thats what keeps your house warm. If you check the duct out the further you get from the heat source the cooler the temp.The pump does help get the fluid moveing to the rear heaters faster. You don't necessarly judge a pump on the size of the ports but gallons per minute it pumps.
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1983ChevroletWayne
Senior Member

Canada
160 Posts

Posted - 01/10/2013 :  08:19:41 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Fastback

quote:
Originally posted by Brad Barker

IC has a new booster pump for the CE and RE. It's not cheap.




Please elaborate on this new pump. Where does it mount? What are its advantages over the prior less costly pump?



On our bus this pump is mounted to the outer side of the passenger frame rail (below the air cleaner).

The bus in question wouldn't warm up inside like it should. All valves were replaced, lines flushed, and cores were checked. After two other booster pumps were installed (with no change), they decided to use this kit. It worked, and the heat flow is much better.

Formerly "83ChevroletWayne"



Pic courtesy of: "schoolbusdriver.org"
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mech19
New Member

6 Posts

Posted - 01/10/2013 :  09:26:28 AM  Show Profile  Visit mech19's Homepage  Reply with Quote
When an impeller seizes up or the booster motor burns out, there would still be a restriction in the heater hose supplying the hot antifreeze to the core(s), thus the water pump on the engine is only going to circulate coolant primarily thru the engine and not the full potential flow to the heater core(s). Now combine this with a dismembered dial valve assembly found on the left front heater core.I agree with the gallons-per-minute theory, but I know if the pump was inoperative the antifreeze wouldn't flow to the heater(s) properly. Sometimes I wonder if that switch on the panel for the booster pump isn't a psychological thing for the driver, especially when the booster pump may not even be pumping coolant at all. "The switch is on so I feel warmer already.", says the driver.
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78fordwayne
Top Member

USA
2868 Posts

Posted - 01/10/2013 :  3:58:19 PM  Show Profile  Visit 78fordwayne's Homepage  Send 78fordwayne an AOL message  Send 78fordwayne a Yahoo! Message  Reply with Quote
I only turn on the boost pump when im at a school and have to shut the engine down. Keeps the heaters blowing warm for a good 30 minutes.

Robert B.

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Mechan1c
Top Member

USA
663 Posts

Posted - 01/11/2013 :  09:27:52 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
When we took the booster pumps off all of our CE's we left the switch there for the drivers to turn on...When we put a pressure gauge in a T in the heater circuit on our buses, it became clear that the "booster" pump was just getting in the way and was unneeded. We tried a couple of the $1000 pumps because we were losing every Bergstrom OE pump, and most of the Groco replacements, and found them not to be worth the investment. So for 4 years we've been running 56 CE'S pumpless.
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57fan
Senior Member

United States
56 Posts

Posted - 01/13/2013 :  9:11:33 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
we have had a few booster pumps go south on us. They have lasted from 3 to 8 years before we had many issues. On our DT-466EGR (2004 engines) we have had many thermostats break leaving big holes for coolant to by pass and the bus not heat up above 140 deg. A couple have done just the opposite and stuck closed causing overheating.

Lead, Follow or get out of the way!
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Bmar
New Member

9 Posts

Posted - 01/15/2013 :  07:51:44 AM  Show Profile  Visit Bmar's Homepage  Reply with Quote
If you're looking for lots of heat without a lot of fuss and bother, look at the Ventech LHG.

45,000 BTUs of almost instantaneous heat even on subzero days and it's fully automatic and virtually maintenance-free. No fuel lines, no flame and no emissions, either.

School Districts from Alberta, Canada to New York and all points in between are currently using the LHG with outstanding results.

Find out more at www.ventechlhg.com

Edited by - Bmar on 01/15/2013 07:52:50 AM
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Fastback
Top Member

908 Posts

Posted - 01/17/2013 :  08:51:31 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by 1983ChevroletWayne

quote:
Originally posted by Fastback

quote:
Originally posted by Brad Barker

IC has a new booster pump for the CE and RE. It's not cheap.




Please elaborate on this new pump. Where does it mount? What are its advantages over the prior less costly pump?



On our bus this pump is mounted to the outer side of the passenger frame rail (below the air cleaner).





Can you get any pictures of the mounting on the MaxxForce 7?

I have the kit here and it appears to be engineered for a VT365, the mounting bracket I have interferes with the coolant return pipe and a frame mounted air brake ABS valve.

Why yes, the ORIGinal CHARGER is a Fastback

Edited by - Fastback on 01/17/2013 08:52:17 AM
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bus a groove
Senior Member

59 Posts

Posted - 01/17/2013 :  10:46:18 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Brad Barker

IC has a new booster pump for the CE and RE. It's not cheap. One problem they say with the pump is that they are not intended to run dry. The coolant acts as a lubricant and coolant to the seals and housing. Make sure when you replace the pump, work on cooling system or drain and fill cooling system that the pump stays unplugged until after the engine has run for a bit and is completely full of coolant with heater valves open. The you can plug the pump in and let er' run. Another problem with IC pumps is they will run backwards if the wires are reversed in the connector. If you by an IC replacement pump they will come with a letter stating this.

Is this pump available now and do you have a part number for any IC models?
I toured the factory not to long ago and at the end we had a chance to ask questions and this came up.
I ordered one about a week ago i believe it was still the old model.
I have probably replaced half the booster pumps in the last year some only last weeks
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1983ChevroletWayne
Senior Member

Canada
160 Posts

Posted - 01/17/2013 :  4:50:08 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote

[/quote]

Can you get any pictures of the mounting on the MaxxForce 7?

I have the kit here and it appears to be engineered for a VT365, the mounting bracket I have interferes with the coolant return pipe and a frame mounted air brake ABS valve.
[/quote]

Sorry, my mistake. This bus that had the heat issue was actually a 365 not a Maxxforce 7. That is probably why you are running into clearance issues. We had discovered later on that this pump actually mounts into the stock location of the original boost pump as well (hidden under the airbox)because we had found another one of our 365s with this HD pump on it, and that's where it was hiding. Nobody seems to know who put it on there!

I'd say this would fit in there (under the airbox) on a Maxxforce7 too but that's just a guess. The space seems to be about the same size, but don't quote me on it!

Formerly "83ChevroletWayne"



Pic courtesy of: "schoolbusdriver.org"
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Fastback
Top Member

908 Posts

Posted - 01/18/2013 :  11:09:03 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote

quote:

Can you get any pictures of the mounting on the MaxxForce 7?

I have the kit here and it appears to be engineered for a VT365, the mounting bracket I have interferes with the coolant return pipe and a frame mounted air brake ABS valve.


quote:

Sorry, my mistake. This bus that had the heat issue was actually a 365 not a Maxxforce 7. That is probably why you are running into clearance issues. We had discovered later on that this pump actually mounts into the stock location of the original boost pump as well (hidden under the airbox)because we had found another one of our 365s with this HD pump on it, and that's where it was hiding. Nobody seems to know who put it on there!

I'd say this would fit in there (under the airbox) on a Maxxforce7 too but that's just a guess. The space seems to be about the same size, but don't quote me on it!




Thanks for following up. If you can get a picture of the one mounted underneath the air cleaner it would be appreciated.

Why yes, the ORIGinal CHARGER is a Fastback

Edited by - Fastback on 01/18/2013 11:11:31 AM
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1983ChevroletWayne
Senior Member

Canada
160 Posts

Posted - 01/19/2013 :  08:27:13 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote

quote:


Thanks for following up. If you can get a picture of the one mounted underneath the air cleaner it would be appreciated.




I'll try to get a picture of this firewall mounted boost pump when I can. The bus had been in the shop a few days ago, but was sent back (about 20 miles) to it's driver's home. Next time it's around I'll take a picture.

Formerly "83ChevroletWayne"



Pic courtesy of: "schoolbusdriver.org"
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